The good news is that you can easily rerun the analysis using your own numbers. 7 is what I chose and provided my reasoning. Actually, if you're looking at something like a Legacy zoo list, they run more like 15 1-drops (see the list that Pat Cox used to win SCG Legacy open). Perhaps 7 is too high, but I certainly feel like 4 is far too few for a healthy aggressive deck.
Your point about the quality of the 1-drops in cube is well-taken. What we need are more quality 1-drops!
Another thing that the analysis has done for me, though is to reset my expectations around supporting aggro. I think that as a drafter you'd have to think of it more as a deck that sacrifices card quality for synergy - i.e. running a bulk of quality 1-drop to ensure density and then making sure that the deck has some reach.
Fair enough I was just trying to start a conversation about how many one drops is right, I'll try keeping track of how many our successful aggro decks are running in the near future.
I stand by thinking 7 is too many but I could easily be wrong.
For more evidence I looked through the "post the deck you played in your last cube draft!" thread for about 10ish pages and the aggro deck with the most one drops I saw on a quick glance was 9 and it was quite the deck, the next most was 6 three times with two of the decks having greater gargadon as a one drop. No others I saw had more than 5.
You are quite correct that your analysis is quite solid if you shift the numbers to suit your tastes and is a very helpful tool, so sorry the majority of my two posts have been argumentative, just trying to start a discussion on how many one drops a deck should have.
The good news is that you can easily rerun the analysis using your own numbers. 7 is what I chose and provided my reasoning. Actually, if you're looking at something like a Legacy zoo list, they run more like 15 1-drops (see the list that Pat Cox used to win SCG Legacy open). Perhaps 7 is too high, but I certainly feel like 4 is far too few for a healthy aggressive deck.
Your point about the quality of the 1-drops in cube is well-taken. What we need are more quality 1-drops!
Another thing that the analysis has done for me, though is to reset my expectations around supporting aggro. I think that as a drafter you'd have to think of it more as a deck that sacrifices card quality for synergy - i.e. running a bulk of quality 1-drop to ensure density and then making sure that the deck has some reach.
I mentioned this in the B/W aggro article thread and it bears mentioning here, that since there are fewer great 1-drops in cube, another thing you can do is really bulk up on the large amount of quality 2-drops that are definitely available. In the end we'll still be slightly slower than something like Legacy Zoo, but it's close enough when you have the consistency of tons of 2+ power 2-drops in your cube deck. Another difference is that the 2-drops we have are going to have slightly more disruption built into them than what is usually played in Zoo, or other interesting abilities/interactions.
Fair enough I was just trying to start a conversation about how many one drops is right, I'll try keeping track of how many our successful aggro decks are running in the near future.
I stand by thinking 7 is too many but I could easily be wrong.
For more evidence I looked through the "post the deck you played in your last cube draft!" thread for about 10ish pages and the aggro deck with the most one drops I saw on a quick glance was 9 and it was quite the deck, the next most was 6 three times with two of the decks having greater gargadon as a one drop. No others I saw had more than 5.
You are quite correct that your analysis is quite solid if you shift the numbers to suit your tastes and is a very helpful tool, so sorry the majority of my two posts have been argumentative, just trying to start a discussion on how many one drops a deck should have.
Discussion started! I see it as 'argue' in the sense of 'debate', and I have no issues with that.
I'll look through that thread too - fantastic idea. Locally the best aggro decks actually tend to be zoo-style with a large number of 1-drops and burn. There's usually only one of those at the table though, and then maybe another black-based one that may or may not have enough early drops. After that it gets into blue tempo decks, lots of midrange and some control. It'd be good to start collecting stats - I've had some trouble collecting good data from players, but I might try a different tack and just get them to turn in their deck in tact and do the analysis at the end. (I never really have the time to back-to-back drafts anyway).
One thing I'd focus on is decks that have winning records. My concern would be that if we're saying, say, 5 is enough one-drops based on the evidence, is that skewed by the fact that there are only so many available? What would decks look like if there were more 1-drops available?
My concern would be that if we're saying, say, 5 is enough one-drops based on the evidence, is that skewed by the fact that there are only so many available? What would decks look like if there were more 1-drops available?
A very Interesting point, and I have to admit I don't often cut one drops from my aggro decks. That said I do tend to not take them as aggressively once I have 3 or 4 but I can't say I have a perfect memory of my drafts so it's possible I only end up passing 1 or 2 the whole draft. I still think I'd rather have a solid curve but I wouldn't have considered the possibility before so you have succeeded in getting me to think about it.
For reference I went ahead and checked my cube and for 1 drops White has 6, Black has 5, Red has 8 counting Gargadon, which is not enough to support aggro decks running the number of one drops you are advocating.
I think the most common error aggro players in cube make is passing one drops. Aggro decks have a litany of cool things to do turn 3 and 4 (and two drops are easy to come by) but one drops are irreplaceable. For example, if I am drafting red aggro, Goblin Guide is my number one card, over Votex, Wheel of Fortune, Lightning Bolt, and everything else.
I think the most common error aggro players in cube make is passing one drops. Aggro decks have a litany of cool things to do turn 3 and 4 (and two drops are easy to come by) but one drops are irreplaceable. For example, if I am drafting red aggro, Goblin Guide is my number one card, over Votex, Wheel of Fortune, Lightning Bolt, and everything else.
I agree with everything except Vortex. Inevitability is much rarer than a 1 drop. A few years ago I would have agreed, but there are tons of great 1 drops now that can fill the needed roles.
I think the most common error aggro players in cube make is passing one drops. Aggro decks have a litany of cool things to do turn 3 and 4 (and two drops are easy to come by) but one drops are irreplaceable. For example, if I am drafting red aggro, Goblin Guide is my number one card, over Votex, Wheel of Fortune, Lightning Bolt, and everything else.
I agree with everything except Vortex. Inevitability is much rarer than a 1 drop. A few years ago I would have agreed, but there are tons of great 1 drops now that can fill the needed roles.
Vortex is certainly debatable. My reasoning is, on turn three, there are many game states where my red aggro would rather play another card than Vortex (be it Stone Rain, a sword, Char, a Vandal, or spin the Wheel). Conversely, there are almost no times when I don't want to begin with Gob Guilde. Heck, you could argue that Mountain > Mox > Goblin guide is better than nearly any red two drop turn one.
If you want to support Kird Ape, Loam Lion and Wild Nacatl, then do you believe that you need to support "Green Aggro" explicitly, or can those cards just exist in the Cube and be adequately supported by other Cube staples? If you need to support "Green Aggro", at least to some extent, then which cards do you feel must be included for this support? Even more specifically, which Green 1-drops are must-haves, and which ones are not necessary? (e.g. Jungle Lion is pretty underwhelming). Is a card like Strangleroot Geist completely fine without Green aggro?
Green aggro is awesome, we've never had a problem with the deck coming together and doing well.
I'm moving to 450 powered soon, and will be supporting blue aggro/tempo (whatever you want to call it) when we do, so I guess my current stance is 360 is too good for blue aggro, and I'm not sure about 450 yet.
If I didn't support green aggro, Strangleroot Geist would be far worse than it is now. And even in those decks, the GG is problematic. It's fine to drop in higher areas of the curve, but typical mid-range green decks don't need the effect as much as aggro does, and decks that support GG on T2 typically aren't aggressive (even if you play green aggro). I think it's a fine card, but I could see cutting it from my 360 at some point.
Interesting on a couple of fronts. First, it's about what I would have expected. With the exception of Wolfbitten Captive which I don't run because I don't run DFCs, I had all of these in my cube until I just cut them (2 of them still on my list which will be updated shortly).
The other interesting point is that less than half of the cubes run more than 2 of them.
Red and White are the only two colors that I support straight-up aggro with -- that is a deck where you just keep swinging dudes and rely upon outpacing your opponent's board presence. This actually is a tempo deck, but most people think of tempo and aggro as somewhat different.
Blue and Black have tempo, where you commit *some* dudes but mostly use disruption to prevent your opponent from ever stabilizing as you clock them to death.
Green has sweet midrange and ramp decks, so I don't carve out the space for any tempo deck on top of that, especially since green's list of cards that are good there is relatively small. Basically, green has enough other decktypes, and cards for them are good in a wide range of decks.
My group point of view on aggro is "If you're playing aggro but not red, you're stupid and deserve to lose".
They feel that the support for aggro in red is far better and deeper than in other colors, and that the creature quality gap isn't big enough to justify playing another color instead of red ("Jackal Pup is Savanah Lion with flavor text"). Playing suboptimal cards means you're stupid and deserve to lose.
Also, if red is cut by someone else playing red, you should notice it from the signals and start playing something else - or you're stupid and deserve to lose.
Your point about the quality of the 1-drops in cube is well-taken. What we need are more quality 1-drops!
Another thing that the analysis has done for me, though is to reset my expectations around supporting aggro. I think that as a drafter you'd have to think of it more as a deck that sacrifices card quality for synergy - i.e. running a bulk of quality 1-drop to ensure density and then making sure that the deck has some reach.
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I stand by thinking 7 is too many but I could easily be wrong.
For more evidence I looked through the "post the deck you played in your last cube draft!" thread for about 10ish pages and the aggro deck with the most one drops I saw on a quick glance was 9 and it was quite the deck, the next most was 6 three times with two of the decks having greater gargadon as a one drop. No others I saw had more than 5.
You are quite correct that your analysis is quite solid if you shift the numbers to suit your tastes and is a very helpful tool, so sorry the majority of my two posts have been argumentative, just trying to start a discussion on how many one drops a deck should have.
I mentioned this in the B/W aggro article thread and it bears mentioning here, that since there are fewer great 1-drops in cube, another thing you can do is really bulk up on the large amount of quality 2-drops that are definitely available. In the end we'll still be slightly slower than something like Legacy Zoo, but it's close enough when you have the consistency of tons of 2+ power 2-drops in your cube deck. Another difference is that the 2-drops we have are going to have slightly more disruption built into them than what is usually played in Zoo, or other interesting abilities/interactions.
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Discussion started! I see it as 'argue' in the sense of 'debate', and I have no issues with that.
I'll look through that thread too - fantastic idea. Locally the best aggro decks actually tend to be zoo-style with a large number of 1-drops and burn. There's usually only one of those at the table though, and then maybe another black-based one that may or may not have enough early drops. After that it gets into blue tempo decks, lots of midrange and some control. It'd be good to start collecting stats - I've had some trouble collecting good data from players, but I might try a different tack and just get them to turn in their deck in tact and do the analysis at the end. (I never really have the time to back-to-back drafts anyway).
One thing I'd focus on is decks that have winning records. My concern would be that if we're saying, say, 5 is enough one-drops based on the evidence, is that skewed by the fact that there are only so many available? What would decks look like if there were more 1-drops available?
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A very Interesting point, and I have to admit I don't often cut one drops from my aggro decks. That said I do tend to not take them as aggressively once I have 3 or 4 but I can't say I have a perfect memory of my drafts so it's possible I only end up passing 1 or 2 the whole draft. I still think I'd rather have a solid curve but I wouldn't have considered the possibility before so you have succeeded in getting me to think about it.
For reference I went ahead and checked my cube and for 1 drops White has 6, Black has 5, Red has 8 counting Gargadon, which is not enough to support aggro decks running the number of one drops you are advocating.
I agree with everything except Vortex. Inevitability is much rarer than a 1 drop. A few years ago I would have agreed, but there are tons of great 1 drops now that can fill the needed roles.
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Agreed however replace Goblin Guide with Jackal Pup and I'm a little more flexible. Goblin Guide's like red's Ancestral Recall.
Vortex is certainly debatable. My reasoning is, on turn three, there are many game states where my red aggro would rather play another card than Vortex (be it Stone Rain, a sword, Char, a Vandal, or spin the Wheel). Conversely, there are almost no times when I don't want to begin with Gob Guilde. Heck, you could argue that Mountain > Mox > Goblin guide is better than nearly any red two drop turn one.
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Strangleroot Geist is good in all theaters, it is not an aggro only card.
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I'm moving to 450 powered soon, and will be supporting blue aggro/tempo (whatever you want to call it) when we do, so I guess my current stance is 360 is too good for blue aggro, and I'm not sure about 450 yet.
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What is the general consensus in terms of the best Green 1-drops for aggro in order?
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...probably something like that.
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The other interesting point is that less than half of the cubes run more than 2 of them.
BTW - is my cube in your stats?
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Blue and Black have tempo, where you commit *some* dudes but mostly use disruption to prevent your opponent from ever stabilizing as you clock them to death.
Green has sweet midrange and ramp decks, so I don't carve out the space for any tempo deck on top of that, especially since green's list of cards that are good there is relatively small. Basically, green has enough other decktypes, and cards for them are good in a wide range of decks.
My apologies as I worded it poorly. What I meant was that only two of the cards in the list are run in more than 50% of the cubes.
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I think this is pretty absurd.
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