Am I the only one who likes to eat their french fries with mustard? I haven't seen one mention of it so far.
[/offtopic]
Love it! I usually have mustard and ketchup on hand and I alternate the dipping. I also dust the fries with black pepper.
What's everyone's preferred wild card land for BG? Bayou, Overgrown Tomb, and Verdant Catacomb are givens. What's next? I run Llanowar Wastes, but I've been tempted to run the filter or bring back the karoo.
Pommes Frites are the worst, but I'm not really a fan of either ketchup or mayo. BBQ sauce is easily my favorite fry condiment (especially as the thicker Kansas City-style ones stick to fries pretty easily) but if that's not available, hot sauce is also excellent (and for those arguing that BBQ sauce is essentially ketchup, those BBQ sauces suck.) There are a few BBQ joints around here where the sauces are amazing and fries are essentially used for texture and picking up sauce and that's all I really ask of my fries.
[/OT]
I hadn't thought of the interactions with the "if you have less land" style cards like Land Tax, Knight of the White Orchid and Weathered Wayfarer which is very useful, but if I had to choose 1, I'd use Battlefield Forge, as it lets aggro decks hit their early drops easily. I'd also use Llanowar Wastes in GB for the similar reasons, but moreso because it helps those decks hit their T1 mana dudes on T1 while making it so that they can hit the B/BB spells in the later game.
@JSexton: For my cube, I disagree with Gruul Turf and Rakdos Carnarium unless you're adding a 5th (or 6th) land to every colour. For me, Copperline Gorge and Blackcleave Cliffs will be the choice in these colours to better support aggro. I also wonder about Golgari Rot Farm over Llanowar Wastes in BG. While Golgari is largely a mid-range guild, it also can be built more aggro, wanting to hit Putrid Leech and other early drops in both colours so I'd prefer the turn 1 fixer. Also, interesting that you mentioned Nantuko Monastery - although it's not a fixer, I've been trying to find a way to fit that card into my cube, but no luck so far. My sense of balancing the colours and guilds is getting in my way there.
It's probably important to note that my cube strongly supports fast aggro in R and W, and has an aggro merfolk theme in blue, but there is very little speedy aggro in B and G. instead, those colors focus more on accelerating and cheating out fatties. As such, the karoos are very valuable.
I also like the Scars duals in RG and BR a lot more than the bouncelands.
I think they might be the best of all the allied lands after the ABU/Fetch/Man duals, with the exception of maybe Krosan Verge. They're really good, even in the control colors.
Did you ever try out the UB and UW ones wtwlf? I know the bounces are good in those because it smooths everything out, but I feel like sometimes the Scars duals just enable those colors to deal with problems earlier by being able to plop down a blocker, counter something, etc. and not completely rely on that 4-mana sweeper. Early bouncelands just feel like a timewalk for your opponent sometimes.
I don't run any of them anymore. Just Dual/Shock/Fetch/Man for the allied combinations, except for WG, which has Horizon Canopy instead of Stirring Wildwood.
Nope. I like them with Dijon mustard (the real stuff, not 'dijonnaise').
Dijonnais(e) just means 'from Dijon' (and that the object is feminine). i.e. C'est de la vraie moutarde dijonnaise. I guess dijonnaise must be something else in America?
[moar /OT]
I'm a fan of all the manlands although I think Horizon Canopy slightly beats the Wildwood, which is frustrating since it is such a good card, whilst R/B gets Lavaclaw Reaches which is by far the weakest of the cycle although it's still good. I rate Lavaclaw Reaches and Blackcleave Cliffs pretty similarly and the two are alternating in my cube.
I don't run any of them anymore. Just Dual/Shock/Fetch/Man for the allied combinations, except for WG, which has Horizon Canopy instead of Stirring Wildwood.
Dijonnais(e) just means 'from Dijon' (and that the object is feminine). i.e. C'est de la vraie moutarde dijonnaise. I guess dijonnaise must be something else in America?
LOL. I'm originally from Canada and speak French, but never actually thought of that. I think that the product itself is mixing Dijon mustard with mayonnaise (which I guess makes some sense since the two often co-exist on a sandwich anyway). The result is a smoother, creamier mustard but it really removes the bite of a good Dijon mustard, which I really like.
[/offtopic]
Below is a list of what I think I'm hearing for the best 5 dual lands for each guild, in order (numbered). I've included the ABUR duals just to keep the conversation simpler, though I run 4 of each and omit the ABUR duals. Does anyone want to run to 6 deep for purposes of discussion and for those with larger cubes?
I think that Llanowar Wastes > Twilight Mire, Horizon Canopy > Stirring Wildwood and Flooded Grove > Yavimaya Coast, but that sounds about right otherwise.
Thanks for the feedback. Does anyone want to update the list for 6-deep? I would imagine that some of the larger cubes might be running 6 duals per guild.
I think it's been discussed in some other threads, but I wanted to update this thread with any thoughts on which Innistrad enemy duals make the list (if any). The current list is in post #37 - I'd be keen for thoughts on updates to this list.
I'd also be keen for people's thoughts on how the list would look going 6-deep.
Ok, this thread has been quiet for quite awhile, but I have a related question - hopefully it roughly belongs here.
I currently don't run any of the ABUR dual lands. However, I'm likely going to start picking them up. It's going to be a slow affair, likely taking a year or so (if I'm lucky maybe get them all by the end of the year, but maybe not).
If you were in my situation, would you add them to your cube immediately as you purchase them (i.e. one at a time) or would you wait until you have all 10?
For what it's worth, I'm thinking of starting with Taiga and Savannah since these make Kird Ape, Loam Lion and Wild Nacatl more viable. I know these are just 3 cards, but they're good ones that need a little support.
I like symmetry, so I'll include an entire cycle or not.
Mana fixing isn't broken, so if you have the option to do so, include the best cards available, in roughly the following order:
1. Fetchlands (assumes you have duals or shocks)
2. Original duals
3. Filter lands
4. Shock lands
5. M10/INN check lands (only because of symmetry)
6. Pain lands
The SOM dual lands are allied-color only, but would probably fall between #4 and #5. The WWK dual/man lands fall higher IMO.
Embarrassingly enough, I have the pain lands and at least a playset of the duals/fetches, but I only have 1 filter land, no shock lands, and no INN check lands. I was hoping to get in on them before those prices spiked up with Modern.
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Due to real-life obligations, I am taking a long break from Magic which may include missing the local Legacy GP. Apologies for not being able to keep my threads updated.
If you were in my situation, would you add them to your cube immediately as you purchase them (i.e. one at a time) or would you wait until you have all 10?
Add them as you get them. And ya, I'd start with the Naya combinations too.
Since most of the discussion in this thread took place before the release of Innistrad, how would you fit the INN-duals in the enemy colors? I know the M10 lands aren't very well liked here, but since the competition is less fierce in the enemy pairs I feel the INN-lands at least should be considered if you run five or more lands in each combination.
Assuming dual, fetch and RAV-dual is 1-3 these are my current rankings.
So I only have 4 slots for land in each guild and cannot afford fetches/alpha duals. What would be the top 3 for each guild combination because right now all I have are buddy lands and bounces and am planning on adding the 4th soon but i'd like to overhaul it all at once. Curious if any recent releases (Scrylands) have changed things.
It really isn't necessary to run all 10 fetch lands. I find that the four blue fetch lands are enough. I know that a lot of people like to have all 10, so if that's your thing go for it, but I run 4 at 360 and have literally never, ever missed the other 6. The R/G and W/G man lands are fantastic, and I run R/W painland, and B/R scars dual. Dakmor Salvage does more for B/G than most any other land could dream of and for B/W I run the scry temple.
Building on a budget is something very few cubers here have experience with because most of us just want to create the best environment possible.
The 10 fetches are 100% necessary for the best mana fixing available to a cube. If you're only going to play with some or none, I think the budget cubes would be the first place I'd look to see what to play instead of them.
The 10 fetches are 100% necessary for the best mana fixing available to a cube.
This. The blue fetches are no better or worse than the non-blue ones, really, when you have so few effects that combine with the shuffle clause. And non-blue fetches work just as well for that job when you do have a Brainstorm or JtMS.
Thanks Goodking. Adding a little more, the non-blue fetches are actually great for fetching blue duals too. Each fetch gets better when you run more of them. I.e., the 4 blue fetches will actually become better when you run all 10. Not sure how to phrase the whole 1+1=3 thing, but together their sum is greater than the total of their parts.
Fetches and ABU duals are way out of my price range too and I prefer not to run proxies, but I've still managed to cobble together a mana base that works pretty well at a fraction of the cost of what's generally considered the ideal cube mana base. I'm running as many lands as I can that don't come into play tapped in each guild (Shocks, pain lands, Scars lands, and M10/Innistrad check lands make up the bulk), plus manlands in allied guilds and scry lands in enemy guilds - which may not be perfectly balanced but at least each ETB tapped land provides a benefit. I am not a fan of the bounce lands/karoos. This probably looks janky compared to a mana base, but 4 and 5 color decks have been perfectly viable, and since most of these lands don't ETB tapped, aggro 2 and 3 color decks are competitive as well. At any rate, here's what I'm running until fetches come down in price, something better than what I'm running gets printed, or I win the lottery:
If you're starting your cube from scratch, and have no lands on hand to work with, I'd recommend investing in complete cycles of pain lands ($1-2 for allied, $3-$5 for enemy - cheaper than ever thanks to the M15 reprint) and check lands ($2-$3 each) as the best budget duals.
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The fetchlands are significantly better than all the fringe fixing lands in every color combination. Other than ABU duals (and sometimes not even then) they're the best fixing option for every color pair. And if you're running duals and shocks to compliment them, the margin becomes even greater.
Love it! I usually have mustard and ketchup on hand and I alternate the dipping. I also dust the fries with black pepper.
What's everyone's preferred wild card land for BG? Bayou, Overgrown Tomb, and Verdant Catacomb are givens. What's next? I run Llanowar Wastes, but I've been tempted to run the filter or bring back the karoo.
Cheers,
rant
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[/OT]
I hadn't thought of the interactions with the "if you have less land" style cards like Land Tax, Knight of the White Orchid and Weathered Wayfarer which is very useful, but if I had to choose 1, I'd use Battlefield Forge, as it lets aggro decks hit their early drops easily. I'd also use Llanowar Wastes in GB for the similar reasons, but moreso because it helps those decks hit their T1 mana dudes on T1 while making it so that they can hit the B/BB spells in the later game.
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It's probably important to note that my cube strongly supports fast aggro in R and W, and has an aggro merfolk theme in blue, but there is very little speedy aggro in B and G. instead, those colors focus more on accelerating and cheating out fatties. As such, the karoos are very valuable.
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I think they might be the best of all the allied lands after the ABU/Fetch/Man duals, with the exception of maybe Krosan Verge. They're really good, even in the control colors.
Did you ever try out the UB and UW ones wtwlf? I know the bounces are good in those because it smooths everything out, but I feel like sometimes the Scars duals just enable those colors to deal with problems earlier by being able to plop down a blocker, counter something, etc. and not completely rely on that 4-mana sweeper. Early bouncelands just feel like a timewalk for your opponent sometimes.
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Dijonnais(e) just means 'from Dijon' (and that the object is feminine). i.e. C'est de la vraie moutarde dijonnaise. I guess dijonnaise must be something else in America?
[moar /OT]
I'm a fan of all the manlands although I think Horizon Canopy slightly beats the Wildwood, which is frustrating since it is such a good card, whilst R/B gets Lavaclaw Reaches which is by far the weakest of the cycle although it's still good. I rate Lavaclaw Reaches and Blackcleave Cliffs pretty similarly and the two are alternating in my cube.
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LOL. I'm originally from Canada and speak French, but never actually thought of that. I think that the product itself is mixing Dijon mustard with mayonnaise (which I guess makes some sense since the two often co-exist on a sandwich anyway). The result is a smoother, creamier mustard but it really removes the bite of a good Dijon mustard, which I really like.
[/offtopic]
Below is a list of what I think I'm hearing for the best 5 dual lands for each guild, in order (numbered). I've included the ABUR duals just to keep the conversation simpler, though I run 4 of each and omit the ABUR duals. Does anyone want to run to 6 deep for purposes of discussion and for those with larger cubes?
1 Tundra
2 Flooded Strand
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Celestial Colonnade
5 Azorius Chancery
U/B
1 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
3 Watery Grave
4 Creeping Tar Pit
5 Dimir Aqueduct
B/R
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blood Crypt
4 Lavaclaw Reaches
5 Blackcleave Cliffs
R/G
1 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Stomping Grounds
4 Raging Ravine
5 Copperline Gorge
1 Savannah
2 Windswepth Heath
3 Temple Garden
4 Stirring Wildwood
5 Horizon Canopy
W/B
1 Scrubland
2 Marsh Flats
3 Godless Shrine
4 Fetid Heath
5 Caves of Koilos
B/G
1 Bayou
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Twilight Mire
5 Llanowar Wastes
G/U
1 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Breeding Pool
4 Simic Growth Chamber
5 Yavimaya Coast
1 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
4 Izzet Boilerworks
5 Shivan Reef
R/W
1 Plateau
2 Arid Mesa
3 Sacred Foundry
4 Battlefield Forge
5 Rugged Prairie
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I'd also be keen for people's thoughts on how the list would look going 6-deep.
Cheers.
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I currently don't run any of the ABUR dual lands. However, I'm likely going to start picking them up. It's going to be a slow affair, likely taking a year or so (if I'm lucky maybe get them all by the end of the year, but maybe not).
If you were in my situation, would you add them to your cube immediately as you purchase them (i.e. one at a time) or would you wait until you have all 10?
For what it's worth, I'm thinking of starting with Taiga and Savannah since these make Kird Ape, Loam Lion and Wild Nacatl more viable. I know these are just 3 cards, but they're good ones that need a little support.
Thoughts?
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Mana fixing isn't broken, so if you have the option to do so, include the best cards available, in roughly the following order:
1. Fetchlands (assumes you have duals or shocks)
2. Original duals
3. Filter lands
4. Shock lands
5. M10/INN check lands (only because of symmetry)
6. Pain lands
The SOM dual lands are allied-color only, but would probably fall between #4 and #5. The WWK dual/man lands fall higher IMO.
Embarrassingly enough, I have the pain lands and at least a playset of the duals/fetches, but I only have 1 filter land, no shock lands, and no INN check lands. I was hoping to get in on them before those prices spiked up with Modern.
Legacy
UWR Miracles UWR
GWB Maverick GWB
GB Elves GB
UBR ANT UBR
RG Combo Lands RG
Vintage
BUG BUG Fish BUG
Modern
GBW
Junk PodMagic: the BuylistingAdd them as you get them. And ya, I'd start with the Naya combinations too.
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I'd run Scars-duals over pains in BR and RG.
On another topic:
Since most of the discussion in this thread took place before the release of Innistrad, how would you fit the INN-duals in the enemy colors? I know the M10 lands aren't very well liked here, but since the competition is less fierce in the enemy pairs I feel the INN-lands at least should be considered if you run five or more lands in each combination.
Assuming dual, fetch and RAV-dual is 1-3 these are my current rankings.
BW:
4. Fetid Heath
5. Caves of Koilos
6. Isolated Chapel
7. Orzhov Basilica
UR:
4. Izzet Boilerworks
5. Cascade Bluffs
6. Sulfur Falls
7. Shivan Reef
BG:
4. Llanowar Wastes
5. Woodland Cemetery
6. Twilight Mire
7. Golgari Rot Farm
RW:
4. Battlefield Forge
5. Clifftop Retreat
6. Boros Garrison
7. Rugged Parairie
GU:
4. Simic Growth Chamber
5. Hinterland Harbor
6. Flooded Grove
7. Yavimaya Coast
I like the Scars Duals slightly more. But painlands are always consistent.
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The 10 fetches are 100% necessary for the best mana fixing available to a cube. If you're only going to play with some or none, I think the budget cubes would be the first place I'd look to see what to play instead of them.
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This. The blue fetches are no better or worse than the non-blue ones, really, when you have so few effects that combine with the shuffle clause. And non-blue fetches work just as well for that job when you do have a Brainstorm or JtMS.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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Azorius
Adarkar Wastes
Celestial Colonnade
Glacial Fortress
Hallowed Fountain
Dimir
Creeping Tar Pit
Drowned Catacomb
Underground River
Watery Grave
Rakdos
Blackcleave Cliffs
Blood Crypt
Lavaclaw Reaches
Sulfurous Springs
Gruul
Copperline Gorge
Karplusan Forest
[/card]Raging Ravine
Stomping Ground
Selesnya
Brushland
Stirring Wildwood
Temple Garden
Windswept Heath (My only fetch, a World Championship edition, I was running the check land before)
Orzhov
Caves of Koilos
Fetid Heath (my only filter - it replaced Temple of Silence)
Godless Shrine
Isolated Chapel
Golgari
Llanowar Wastes
Overgrown Tomb
Temple of Malady
Woodland Cemetery
Simic
Breeding Pool
Hinterland Harbor
Temple of Mystery
Yavimaya Coast
Izzet
Shivan Reef
Steam Vents
Sulfur Falls
[card]Temple of Epiphany
[/card]
Boros
Battlefield Forge
Clifftop Retreat
Sacred Foundry
Temple of Triumph (I'd really like to replace this with Rugged Prairie)
5-color fixers (I've bolded the ones I think are the best value dollar-for-dollar)
City of Brass
Evolving Wilds
Gemstone Mine
Grand Coliseum
Mana Confluence
Reflecting Pool
Terramorphic Expanse
Undiscovered Paradise
Vivid Crag
Vivid Creek
Vivid Grove
Vivid Marsh
Vivid Meadow
If you're starting your cube from scratch, and have no lands on hand to work with, I'd recommend investing in complete cycles of pain lands ($1-2 for allied, $3-$5 for enemy - cheaper than ever thanks to the M15 reprint) and check lands ($2-$3 each) as the best budget duals.
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