So I've now watched a bunch of the Channelfireball MTGO cube videos and read the cube articles there--I find pretty much any cube content compulsively readable or watchable. And that group seems oddly fixated on monored as a draft archetype. LSV pushes it as the absolute best thing to draft, and in the videos most of the (incredibly good professional) players seem to simply divide cards into monored/not-monored. I find it perplexing, given all that Cube has to offer, that the analysis of a draft can be so linear.
The thing is, it seems to work pretty well. In this video, Paul Cheon forced monored from a first pack that features... Arc Lightning. He picks Ember Hauler later in pack 1 over Ravages of War, picks something normal like Blood Knight over Ajani Vengeant... And he wins the draft. The implication seems to be that the archetype is almost a cheat code for winning MTGO (and even other) drafts.
In an article discussed in detail in another thread, Josh Silvestri says "Mono Red is the ultimate barometer of what is a good or great cube deck."
I only ever Winston my cube, so any monocolored deck simply isn't an issue for me. I've never seen this to be the case at all. But it does make me wonder--is monored a problem if such a simple, linear archetype can roll over other, arguable more interesting archetypes? Is it more or less of an issue in a cube with stronger aggro support across more colors than the official MTGO cube provides?
I think it's the strongest archetype when it comes together but people have to let you draft it which they shouldn't do. Monoblue is really powerful too but why would people even let you draft it?
I think it's the strongest archetype when it comes together but people have to let you draft it which they shouldn't do. Monoblue is really powerful too but why would people even let you draft it?
Agreed. Mono red is exceptional, but you're very rarely drafting red cards uncontested. Times were simpler years ago when everyone else in my group was busy fighting over blue cards...
On another note, mono green is a deck that people are able to assemble on command here. It's something I don't do enough of.
I think it's the strongest archetype when it comes together but people have to let you draft it which they shouldn't do. Monoblue is really powerful too but why would people even let you draft it?
Great thread. I don't have any answers, but I am also wondering what the mono red obsession is over at Channel Fireball. PV is opposite though; he forces blue and takes mediocre midrange cards over archetypal bombs all the time. I am honestly very confused by their picks considering how good the players are. There is no way in HELL that passing the Ravages of War and Ajani Vengeant was correct in the opening post...
It is pretty simple: If everybody want to play durdly control and ramp decks, you want to play aggro. If the aggro support outside of red isn't very deep and the color is underdrafted at the same time, going mono red seems like a good option.
Also even if it sounds arrogant, when you are playing mono, you can do less things wrong when it comes to determine the right cards for your deck.
I got tied up as I was trying to write up basically the same thing. Something else to keep in mind for that cube is that the mana fixing is really bad and they have a lot of color intensive drops so 2 color aggro decks are just begging to lose games to mana screw. Their cube also felt really light on burn making red a rather unappealing color for control and midrange which is likely the reason it was under drafted.
In my cube you'd be crazy passing Ajani Vengeant and Armageddon for random red durdles but having not seen the particular draft I'm willing to give Paul Cheon the benefit of the doubt that he made the right picks.
Remember too that the MTGO cube is strange. As others have mentioned, little mana fixing. On top of that, it's large. Removal seems light, and is taken at a premium. Building mono red, white, or RW decks is easy, and pays results. I have 40 packs of Inns and DKA online (and not much to do with them) largely due to forcing some combo of those colors. Once in a while you get passed such good, late off-color stuff you need to go in a new direction, but generally those colors seem to work very well in that particular cube.
People should not give Cheon the benefit of the doubt... Please watch the videos, everyone. Some of these picks are crazy. Like PV's video is pretty much a joke, but at least he proclaims that he just drafts things he thinks are 'fun.' He didn't even consider a SoLS for p1p1, but instead Prophetic Bolt was in his top 3 for consideration...
But yeah, seriously watch the Cheon video and explain to me how those picks were even close to correct.
LOL. The Cheon video was pretty funny, and while I'm no Magic genius, I was definitely scratching my head. In particular the Ravages of War pick. Anyway...
I also agree with what many have already posted. Even if mono-Red is objectively the best, then presumably people will fight you for the cards and you'll be forced to branch into another colour. In this way, it has some self-correcting characteristics. People generally consider Blue the best colour, and I find I have a hard time drafting Blue because people are fighting so hard for it. That's ok, though, because it means that something else is open, and if I can figure out what it is and draft that then I should have a kick ass deck.
I played against a LOT of monored decks when I played the MTGO cube, and they always seemed to be playing a lot of really sub-par cards and I usually beat them pretty easily with decks that burn should be able to do well against including a slow, midrange deck, a ramp deck and a control deck.
I think I won 8 or so drafts the second time MTGO curb was around and got second in most of the rest with mono-red. In cube, people want to play all the super-cool cards, and that is why mono-red will always be the best deck. I won several game with a turn 1 black vise, turn 2 weenie, then turn 3 vortex. That's it. They couldn't even interact with it most of the time because they were tamping into fatties, or some control deck that decided tapping out was a good idea.
It's not the most powerful deck, but it will always be the best.
I think I won 8 or so drafts the second time MTGO curb was around and got second in most of the rest with mono-red. In cube, people want to play all the super-cool cards, and that is why mono-red will always be the best deck. I won several game with a turn 1 black vise, turn 2 weenie, then turn 3 vortex. That's it. They couldn't even interact with it most of the time because they were tamping into fatties, or some control deck that decided tapping out was a good idea.
It's not the most powerful deck, but it will always be the best.
But as a cube manager, I don't want something as (relatively) straightforward to draft and play act as a hack that wins you the draft. Cheon's draft on MTGO was a trainwreck, and he still won the draft, after all.
From what folks are saying, there are two ways of dealing with this. The first is to let the drafters figure out that cards like Tangle Wire, Vortex, etc. shouldn't be passed as readily. Once more people start fighting for the color and the archetype, the problem goes away. (This is what happens in blue, the overall dominant color in cube). This presumes that you are playing with a stable group, however, and might take a while to happen.
The second is to provide better aggro support over more colors. It seems that cubes like MTGO (and perhaps like Silverstri's which uses the Rebel hack and is considering cutting all black creatures under 3cc) that don't carefully support aggro, monored is just about the only true aggro deck that can be built. (Although from my perspective not including white aggro as support seems perplexing.) In a durdle-y metagame, then it makes sense that the only decent fast deck will be strong. But once WR, GR, GB, GR, WG, BR are all potential aggro colors, the metagame will both speed up enough to even things out, and there will be more competition for all the top-notch aggro support (and burn) cards.
Of course, I just Winston, so it doesn't really apply to me. But it has been interesting seeing how much diverging assumptions about cubing play out...
The thing is, it seems to work pretty well. In this video, Paul Cheon forced monored from a first pack that features... Arc Lightning. He picks Ember Hauler later in pack 1 over Ravages of War, picks something normal like Blood Knight over Ajani Vengeant... And he wins the draft. The implication seems to be that the archetype is almost a cheat code for winning MTGO (and even other) drafts.
In an article discussed in detail in another thread, Josh Silvestri says "Mono Red is the ultimate barometer of what is a good or great cube deck."
I only ever Winston my cube, so any monocolored deck simply isn't an issue for me. I've never seen this to be the case at all. But it does make me wonder--is monored a problem if such a simple, linear archetype can roll over other, arguable more interesting archetypes? Is it more or less of an issue in a cube with stronger aggro support across more colors than the official MTGO cube provides?
Has anyone found it to be true in their cubes?
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Agreed. Mono red is exceptional, but you're very rarely drafting red cards uncontested. Times were simpler years ago when everyone else in my group was busy fighting over blue cards...
On another note, mono green is a deck that people are able to assemble on command here. It's something I don't do enough of.
Yup, this.
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I got tied up as I was trying to write up basically the same thing. Something else to keep in mind for that cube is that the mana fixing is really bad and they have a lot of color intensive drops so 2 color aggro decks are just begging to lose games to mana screw. Their cube also felt really light on burn making red a rather unappealing color for control and midrange which is likely the reason it was under drafted.
In my cube you'd be crazy passing Ajani Vengeant and Armageddon for random red durdles but having not seen the particular draft I'm willing to give Paul Cheon the benefit of the doubt that he made the right picks.
But yeah, seriously watch the Cheon video and explain to me how those picks were even close to correct.
I also agree with what many have already posted. Even if mono-Red is objectively the best, then presumably people will fight you for the cards and you'll be forced to branch into another colour. In this way, it has some self-correcting characteristics. People generally consider Blue the best colour, and I find I have a hard time drafting Blue because people are fighting so hard for it. That's ok, though, because it means that something else is open, and if I can figure out what it is and draft that then I should have a kick ass deck.
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1- Newer players often get sucked into B/G (w) midrange value decks
2- Competitive players often just default into blue
Unless you have Cube vets, monored (and aggressive decks in general) will often be pretty wide open.
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It's not the most powerful deck, but it will always be the best.
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But as a cube manager, I don't want something as (relatively) straightforward to draft and play act as a hack that wins you the draft. Cheon's draft on MTGO was a trainwreck, and he still won the draft, after all.
From what folks are saying, there are two ways of dealing with this. The first is to let the drafters figure out that cards like Tangle Wire, Vortex, etc. shouldn't be passed as readily. Once more people start fighting for the color and the archetype, the problem goes away. (This is what happens in blue, the overall dominant color in cube). This presumes that you are playing with a stable group, however, and might take a while to happen.
The second is to provide better aggro support over more colors. It seems that cubes like MTGO (and perhaps like Silverstri's which uses the Rebel hack and is considering cutting all black creatures under 3cc) that don't carefully support aggro, monored is just about the only true aggro deck that can be built. (Although from my perspective not including white aggro as support seems perplexing.) In a durdle-y metagame, then it makes sense that the only decent fast deck will be strong. But once WR, GR, GB, GR, WG, BR are all potential aggro colors, the metagame will both speed up enough to even things out, and there will be more competition for all the top-notch aggro support (and burn) cards.
Of course, I just Winston, so it doesn't really apply to me. But it has been interesting seeing how much diverging assumptions about cubing play out...
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