I've got a peasant cube that has your usual common/uncommon "goodstuff" (working on getting a list put together), but I will eventually start introducing rares. Probably not for a while yet, as we don't have that many games under our belts with it, but what would be your first set of rares (all colors, artifact, land, multi) that you would include in a peasant cube? Kind of curious to see if everyone goes for the staples of each color, or some more interesting effects that may not be that reachable in common/uncommon.
Honestly, I would start with the archetype enablers first, and include the super-powered cards later. I wouldn't put a Wrath of God, Sword of x/y, or a Bitterblossom in right away, because it would invalidate a ton of cards that are considerably worse. I would also leave planeswalkers for later, when the overall power level of your cube is higher. But stuff like Academy Ruins, Birds of Paradise, Braids, Cabal Minion are good early includes, because they either aren't so overpowered that they would lead to you taking out 5 cards as unplayable by comparison, or they introduce an effect that you can't get in common/uncommon cubes.
If they were uncommon, I'd add in the cycle of Painlands (Shivan Reef, etc.) in a heartbeat.
They don't seem completely overpowered compared to other lands that are available at Uncommon and aggro could really use some more manafixing that doesn't come into play tapped.
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It really depends on what your ultimate goal is. Do you want to eventually end up with a rare cube that resembles the average cube on these boards or are you more hoping to keep it mostly C/U and toss in some rares to make it a little interesting, but not too powerful? I added the pain lands to my C/U cube because they don't really "feel" rare any more in comparison to more recently rare lands. Another option would be to add in some cards like Savannah Lions and Isamaru. If Elite Vanguard is considered uncommon, then so should these cards, IMO. I haven't opted to do this yet, but you can check out the list that Usman put together for Limited Resources MTGO cube. It's mostly C/U with some less powerful rares thrown in. You can see that list here. And my list is in my sig.
Once you open the pandora's box (in adding rares), where do you stop? What cards that are rare can or can I not put in? If you categorize your cube as peasant, I'd stick with that.. Peasant for me is Common and Uncommon only..
However that being said, I agree with Magnet Man in that the Painlands and other mana fixers would be your first priorities if you want to "rare" up!
Once you open the pandora's box (in adding rares), where do you stop?
You really just have to evaluate the power that each card has and how it compares to other uncommons/commons. Some uncommons are a little too powerful even for a peasant cube. These are mostly cards that I feel probably should have been rare with their initial printing (Sylvan Library, Sol Ring, Mana Drain). And then there are cards that are rare that don't feel very rare when compared to newer cards (Savannah Lions, Pain lands, etc). That's where the line is drawn. I think if you can justify why a card should or should not be rare by comparing it to other cards of similar rarities, then you can explain why it should or should not be included in a C/U cube.
Fair enough. Didn't know Mana Drain was an uncommon, but I would include Sylvan Library or Sol Ring in a pauper/peasant cube. They'd just be P1P1 picks..
It's just hard to gauge where the line is drawn.. My line would have been the colour of the set symbol.. but I do respect your comments about Pain lands and Savannah Lions, because it makes sense in terms of power level..
I'm still debating, but the only reason I don't have a cube that includes rares at the moment is that I would have to pick apart so many of my EDH decks to pull cards out for it, and that's the primary format I play. Eventually I think I would like the cube to have rares, so that's the direction I would be going. I think the pain lands sound like a good idea and may consider those, they are after all doing nothing in my binder since they've been obsoleted.
That seems fine. If you're planning on eventually adding rares, I might start with the Scars or M10/INN duals before the pain lands. They aren't quite as nice as fetches, ABU duals, or RAV duals, but they are a bit better than the pain lands, IMO, especially for the aggro color pairs.
I play painlands and Savannah Lions in my C/U cube and most players don't even notice/comment on it. I have done some reading about what Magic designers/developers (Mark Rosewater, etc.) have said about why they choose rarities and the only reason that dual lands (painlands, M10/INN cycle) are NOT uncommon is to sell packs. In other words, from a power-level standpoint, or to design a better limited format, they should be uncommon.
Power level:
I do not run certain "power" uncommons in my cube for several reasons. The biggest reason is that they are too difficult to answer and would warp the format to revolve around having them/defeating them--Skullclamp, Library of Alexandria, Sol Ring. They are also so much better than every other card in the cube that they reduce the complexity of the draft. I don't include Maze of Ith on this list, although it's possible that it should be here. I would not run these 3 (or 4) cards unless I was really ramping up the power of the cube to the level of running cards like Goblin Guide, Jace Beleren, Grave Titan. They really are that good.
Custom Cards:
The other way that I slightly increased the power of my cube was by adding a couple custom equipments (based on the Sword cycle).
Sword of Bodies 3
Equipped creature get +2/+2. Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player put a 2/2 green wolf token onto the battlefield.
Equip 2.
Shadow Sword 3
Equipped creature gets +2/+2. Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player return target creature from your graveyard to your hand.
Equip 2.
I've also played around with adding a couple custom planeswalkers, since unfortunately all the real PWs are too good for C/U cubes; but it is just so hard to balance the abilities, the loyalty, the mana cost.
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Oh, and rebelized white. Best change I ever made. See here.
If they were uncommon, I'd add in the cycle of Painlands (Shivan Reef, etc.) in a heartbeat.
They don't seem completely overpowered compared to other lands that are available at Uncommon and aggro could really use some more manafixing that doesn't come into play tapped.
My friend has a peasant cube with budget rare lands (m10 and pains), it's very cool to play.
Honestly I think we'll see the painlands as uncommon one day.
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I'm not sure how many rares you're planning on including but... if I had a peasant cube and if i only wanted to include 1 rare for each color, I'd add the most Timmy-sized rare creature each color has to offer.
I'd make each creature a insta-p1p1 no matter what that instantly sends a player down a particular color. And people would know that there was only 1 in each color so if they were lucky enough to open one, they'd know that they had the best creature in the color and it would be less likely that other players would be fighting for that color as hard as they were.
I just want that big, bomby creature that's going to make the deck no matter what. It would also be that game changing creature that you're hoping to top-deck when you're behind. And now your cube could be defined as a "Peasant Cube w/ 1 Rare Creature in Each Color" and people would know this when they drafted and played.
I'm not sure how many rares you're planning on including but... if I had a peasant cube and if i only wanted to include 1 rare for each color, I'd add the most Timmy-sized rare creature each color has to offer.
I'd make each creature a insta-p1p1 no matter what that instantly sends a player down a particular color. And people would know that there was only 1 in each color so if they were lucky enough to open one, they'd know that they had the best creature in the color and it would be less likely that other players would be fighting for that color as hard as they were.
I just want that big, bomby creature that's going to make the deck no matter what. It would also be that game changing creature that you're hoping to top-deck when you're behind. And now your cube could be defined as a "Peasant Cube w/ 1 Rare Creature in Each Color" and people would know this when they drafted and played.
You're basically saying: Pop a Titan in each colour.
How I wish the titans had never been printed. Wizards was obviously like, lol let's make a cycle of rares that are better than anything ever printed or ever will be printed.
If you are going to add rares to your pauper cube, put the rares that will support your commons and uncommons and not steal focus from them. With that said I agree with some of the previous posters to put in Rare mana fixing in your cube. That is what I would do.
But I think that is not what you want. You are looking for Rares that are splashy and a bit bomby. An idea you can have is put in a bit of Tribal cards... they are rare and powerful but only for certain arcetypes. That way they are not autoincludes or first picks. Put in narrow cards like artifact support
I agree with several of the previous posts. If you're adding rares, the key is to fill the natural holes that exist in peasant formats to enable a more full range of archetypes.
I'm building a custom draft set ("cube") that is similar. As a first pass, I'm actually limiting the ratios of rares/uncommons/commons to those you'd see in an actual draft. This means a couple of things:
1. In a 450 cube I only have 30 rare slots, so that's not many and I'll have to choose carefully.
2. I don't want my rares to overpower the rest of the set. Draft formats can really suck when you're playing with limited cards and your opponent is playing with constructed cards. That said, the whole reason that I'm building this set is because in real limited, you actually do have access to some rares. I just want to choose which ones you have access to.
What does this mean? Well, in order to enable faster aggressive strategies, I'm doing as was previously mentioned and including cards like Isamaru, Hound of Konda and Goblin Guide. These are strong cards, but I wouldn't say overpowered. (Also, I'm actually outright including Savannah Lions at uncommon - Elite Vanguard isn't exactly overpowered so the lions are perfectly fine at uncommon).
Also, I'd like to enable certain strategies, like UW control. Without sweepers, this doesn't exist. However, I don't want it to be overpowered either. So you can limit the number of sweepers (even to just one), but you can also choose less efficient ones. Getting the right balance will just take testing, but I'm trying with Hallowed Burial as a starting point (primarily because it also fits well with the flavour of my custom set). If it's still too powerful for the environment, then I can always try a 6CC sweeper. Just like in real limited, a 6-mana sweeper is still very good.
Late-game bombs are another interesting category - I want them to exist, but don't want them to dominate the entire game. Rune-Scarred Demon is very powerful in a limited environment, but at 7CC the opponent certainly has time to put together their game plan. As always, I'm planning to test it out and make changes as necessary. But I want the flavour of one or two high powered demons in my set, I just need to choose the ones that best fit.
And of course rare mana fixing.
All that being said, if you're really interested in eventually turning it into a traditional cube, I'd take a completely different approach. I'd start with cube staples that you can afford that aren't overpowered and just slowly start adding those, removing the least powerful cards as you add them.This causes the overall power level to increase naturally as you make additions.
I think adding Savannah Lions and Isamaru at uncommon is ok, but Goblin Guide is pushing it.
I also disagree that UW control needs sweepers to exist. Counters, bounce, removal, solid early game defensive guys and solid finishers.
I think a custom set with rares that aren't overpowered sounds like a swell idea, but I wouldn't want to build a peasant cube and then just start adding low power rares to it. To me that takes away a bit from peasant. I'm running the pain lands to help with fixing (which is atrocious at the peasant level), but beyond that, I'm not running anything that wasn't printed at Uncommon.
I think adding Savannah Lions and Isamaru at uncommon is ok, but Goblin Guide is pushing it.
It's possible that Gobline Guide is too strong. But fundamentally, what I'm suggesting is perhaps a little different from what you're implying: I'm not adding Isamaru, Hound of Konda at uncommon, I'm adding it at rare. Fundamentally, it's expected to be really good. It's only a problem if it's too good. And if so, I'm not stuck on Goblin Guide - I just want to fill holes to facilitate red aggro decks. The difference with Savannah Lions was that I was actually including it at uncommon.
I also disagree that UW control needs sweepers to exist. Counters, bounce, removal, solid early game defensive guys and solid finishers.
Ok, maybe not to exist, as such. But I do feel that while the things you mention are good components of a control deck, the thing that makes it great is card advantage. In a limited environment, to me this means card draw, sweepers (even if not 4CC sweepers), and control magic effects. Card draw and control magic are available at common/uncommon, but sweepers in white are generally only at rare.
I think a custom set with rares that aren't overpowered sounds like a swell idea, but I wouldn't want to build a peasant cube and then just start adding low power rares to it. To me that takes away a bit from peasant. I'm running the pain lands to help with fixing (which is atrocious at the peasant level), but beyond that, I'm not running anything that wasn't printed at Uncommon.
I agree - the peasant environment has its own feel. I was only offering my own experience which is related, if not exactly the same, as the OP.
I'm backing up calibretto and saying that sweepers aren't necessary to play U/W control. Ray of command acts like a miniature, one sided sweeper most of the time anyway. Outside of that, we have plenty of sweepers in red and black. One of the nice things about peasant is that UW and UB control are more different than usual. One gets you walls and life and makes a board that you just cant beat over time while it grinds you down, and the other Card Advantage's you into merciless oblivion.
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They don't seem completely overpowered compared to other lands that are available at Uncommon and aggro could really use some more manafixing that doesn't come into play tapped.
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However that being said, I agree with Magnet Man in that the Painlands and other mana fixers would be your first priorities if you want to "rare" up!
You really just have to evaluate the power that each card has and how it compares to other uncommons/commons. Some uncommons are a little too powerful even for a peasant cube. These are mostly cards that I feel probably should have been rare with their initial printing (Sylvan Library, Sol Ring, Mana Drain). And then there are cards that are rare that don't feel very rare when compared to newer cards (Savannah Lions, Pain lands, etc). That's where the line is drawn. I think if you can justify why a card should or should not be rare by comparing it to other cards of similar rarities, then you can explain why it should or should not be included in a C/U cube.
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It's just hard to gauge where the line is drawn.. My line would have been the colour of the set symbol.. but I do respect your comments about Pain lands and Savannah Lions, because it makes sense in terms of power level..
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Power level:
Custom Cards:
Sword of Bodies 3
Equipped creature get +2/+2. Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player put a 2/2 green wolf token onto the battlefield.
Equip 2.
Shadow Sword 3
Equipped creature gets +2/+2. Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player return target creature from your graveyard to your hand.
Equip 2.
I've also played around with adding a couple custom planeswalkers, since unfortunately all the real PWs are too good for C/U cubes; but it is just so hard to balance the abilities, the loyalty, the mana cost.
"I'm a rebel, are you a rebel?" Rebel rebel rebel...
My friend has a peasant cube with budget rare lands (m10 and pains), it's very cool to play.
Honestly I think we'll see the painlands as uncommon one day.
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I'd make each creature a insta-p1p1 no matter what that instantly sends a player down a particular color. And people would know that there was only 1 in each color so if they were lucky enough to open one, they'd know that they had the best creature in the color and it would be less likely that other players would be fighting for that color as hard as they were.
I just want that big, bomby creature that's going to make the deck no matter what. It would also be that game changing creature that you're hoping to top-deck when you're behind. And now your cube could be defined as a "Peasant Cube w/ 1 Rare Creature in Each Color" and people would know this when they drafted and played.
Thread | Draft
You're basically saying: Pop a Titan in each colour.
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But I think that is not what you want. You are looking for Rares that are splashy and a bit bomby. An idea you can have is put in a bit of Tribal cards... they are rare and powerful but only for certain arcetypes. That way they are not autoincludes or first picks. Put in narrow cards like artifact support
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There.
Not necessarily. It's an option, but it doesn't have to be.
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Putting in bombs is a horrible idea. I open bomb # 1 and you open no bombs. I open bomb # 2, you open no bombs. I win games 1 and 2, we draft again.
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I'm building a custom draft set ("cube") that is similar. As a first pass, I'm actually limiting the ratios of rares/uncommons/commons to those you'd see in an actual draft. This means a couple of things:
1. In a 450 cube I only have 30 rare slots, so that's not many and I'll have to choose carefully.
2. I don't want my rares to overpower the rest of the set. Draft formats can really suck when you're playing with limited cards and your opponent is playing with constructed cards. That said, the whole reason that I'm building this set is because in real limited, you actually do have access to some rares. I just want to choose which ones you have access to.
What does this mean? Well, in order to enable faster aggressive strategies, I'm doing as was previously mentioned and including cards like Isamaru, Hound of Konda and Goblin Guide. These are strong cards, but I wouldn't say overpowered. (Also, I'm actually outright including Savannah Lions at uncommon - Elite Vanguard isn't exactly overpowered so the lions are perfectly fine at uncommon).
Also, I'd like to enable certain strategies, like UW control. Without sweepers, this doesn't exist. However, I don't want it to be overpowered either. So you can limit the number of sweepers (even to just one), but you can also choose less efficient ones. Getting the right balance will just take testing, but I'm trying with Hallowed Burial as a starting point (primarily because it also fits well with the flavour of my custom set). If it's still too powerful for the environment, then I can always try a 6CC sweeper. Just like in real limited, a 6-mana sweeper is still very good.
Some other examples include Glorious Anthem, Dungeon Geists, Hypnotic Specter (which you may already include at uncommon), Rune-Scarred Demon, Birds of Paradise, etc.
Late-game bombs are another interesting category - I want them to exist, but don't want them to dominate the entire game. Rune-Scarred Demon is very powerful in a limited environment, but at 7CC the opponent certainly has time to put together their game plan. As always, I'm planning to test it out and make changes as necessary. But I want the flavour of one or two high powered demons in my set, I just need to choose the ones that best fit.
And of course rare mana fixing.
All that being said, if you're really interested in eventually turning it into a traditional cube, I'd take a completely different approach. I'd start with cube staples that you can afford that aren't overpowered and just slowly start adding those, removing the least powerful cards as you add them.This causes the overall power level to increase naturally as you make additions.
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I also disagree that UW control needs sweepers to exist. Counters, bounce, removal, solid early game defensive guys and solid finishers.
I think a custom set with rares that aren't overpowered sounds like a swell idea, but I wouldn't want to build a peasant cube and then just start adding low power rares to it. To me that takes away a bit from peasant. I'm running the pain lands to help with fixing (which is atrocious at the peasant level), but beyond that, I'm not running anything that wasn't printed at Uncommon.
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It's possible that Gobline Guide is too strong. But fundamentally, what I'm suggesting is perhaps a little different from what you're implying: I'm not adding Isamaru, Hound of Konda at uncommon, I'm adding it at rare. Fundamentally, it's expected to be really good. It's only a problem if it's too good. And if so, I'm not stuck on Goblin Guide - I just want to fill holes to facilitate red aggro decks. The difference with Savannah Lions was that I was actually including it at uncommon.
Ok, maybe not to exist, as such. But I do feel that while the things you mention are good components of a control deck, the thing that makes it great is card advantage. In a limited environment, to me this means card draw, sweepers (even if not 4CC sweepers), and control magic effects. Card draw and control magic are available at common/uncommon, but sweepers in white are generally only at rare.
I agree - the peasant environment has its own feel. I was only offering my own experience which is related, if not exactly the same, as the OP.
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