It might but there are also a lot of different factors here. Innistrad, while reasonably fast, wasn't the super aggro deathfest that Zendikar was. Secondly, Rise was new, but another expansion of battlecruiser magic is too soon seeing as how rise was 2 years ago. I'd be suprised if Avacyn was anything more than just a flashy overcosted rare.
Sim city magic is always fun, I wouldn't mind another slow big guy set. But I doubt that it will be that slow, Avacyn is one card, and I don't think anyone was surprised to see her cost less than 7 mana. They didn't do anything out of the norm for a hyped up super legend.
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I like Avacyn. It's not making my cube any time soon, but it's a hit rather than a miss as a card - it does something suitably epic and unique. As far as 8-drops go it's a cubeable one, but honestly most people don't want to run an 8-drop these days. Green is maybe an exception.
I like Avacyn. It's not making my cube any time soon, but it's a hit rather than a miss as a card - it does something suitably epic and unique. As far as 8-drops go it's a cubeable one, but honestly most people don't want to run an 8-drop these days. Green is maybe an exception.
I run 8 drops if they're sufficiently awesome. I run 6 permanents at 8+ mana (not counting tombstalker): NBPW, Terastodon, Woofdall Primus, Sundering Titan, Sphinx of the Steel Wind and Kozilek. The first four all hit hard immediately. Sphinx of the Steel Wind is basically impossible to race and really hard to deal with, plus a lot of it's play is in tinker decks. And Kozilek really isn't good enough, but does have a big effect when you cast him and occasionally shows up in mana ramp. And most people rightfully don't run him.
Which is to say at 8 mana you don't just need to pass the vanilla test, you need to crush it. And Avacyn is nowhere close.
She's far worse than Elesh Norn. Norn is a beating, I wish more people would give her a chance.
This. So this. Out of the cards that I wish more people here gave a chance, Elesh Norn is definitely at the top, she's been stellar in my cube as one of the best finishers.
This. So this. Out of the cards that I wish more people here gave a chance, Elesh Norn is definitely at the top, she's been stellar in my cube as one of the best finishers.
I just recently cut Akroma, so I am minus one finisher. I was thinking of hopping on board the praetrain replacing Sunblast Angel with Elesh Norn. Yay or nay?
Elesh Norn is pretty good. I think she definitely has a spot alongside Eternal Dragon as one of the premier 7-drops for cube. It's too bad Avacyn wasn't costed as a 7/7 for 7 - aside from being thematically appropriate (considering the emphasis on unlucky numbers in the first two sets) it would invite more equal comparison to something like Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. And all things being equal, a 7/7 kills opponents just as quickly as an 8/8, so there's that.
Yay, a million times yay. She ends up killing a couple of guys when she enters play usually, and makes a lot of your opponent's creatures in hand dead.
I just recently cut Akroma, so I am minus one finisher. I was thinking of hopping on board the praetrain replacing Sunblast Angel with Elesh Norn. Yay or nay?
I've said it before and I'll keep on saying it...Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is better than every other finisher in the cube outside of Wurmcoil Engine. I would run it in powered 360 without hesitation. I think it is simply that good and not running it in cube is a mistake.
I've said it before and I'll keep on saying it...Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is better than every other finisher in the cube outside of Wurmcoil Engine. I would run it in powered 360 without hesitation. I think it is simply that good and not running it in cube is a mistake.
I'm quoting you on that one Kenny! You are a very convincing man.
I've said it before and I'll keep on saying it...Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is better than every other finisher in the cube outside of Wurmcoil Engine. I would run it in powered 360 without hesitation. I think it is simply that good and not running it in cube is a mistake.
It costs 7 mana (7!), doesn't protect itself, and is a only a 5 turn clock...
As far as other finishers, we have some pretty ridiculous options; Wurmcoil is one, but Jace 3, Grave, Inferno, and Sun Titan are all much better as well. And all of those cost less. For 7 mana, I expect game-ending power on the level of Karn Liberated, not a oversized Shriekmaw who gets popped by Doom Blade. The only 7-cost cards I include at all are Pelakka Wurm (who passes the terminate test by a mile), Karn, and Myr Battlesphere.
I would probably include Elesh in a 450+ unpowered list. But at the 360 level, if you are paying 7 mana for something, it better by ending the game quickly, and if the cube is powered, 7 mana is too much for something that can't end the game in 2-3 turns.
I do think Elesh is better than our new Angel though.
It costs 7 mana but it's basically immune to red burn, pacifism effects don't really deal with it, and it's a permanent wrath on the opponent. And when all of your 2/2s are now 4/4s, it's rather faster than a 5 turn clock.
Pelakka wurm gives you life and a card. Norn kills a pile of dudes and usually nets you a lot more advantage than a single card and some life.
If I can ever pick up an Elesh Norn for cheap, I'll be testing it. Until then, I don't care that much. Big 7+ mana creatures are pretty low on my priority list for getting for the cube.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Elesh Norn is not the best control finisher, that's certainly right, but if she's not supposed to drive the game home all by herself, but rather as a curve-topper in a midrange-deck with a couple of mana stones, she's extremely good.
Also, people have been suggesting the Vindicate test instead of the Doom Blade test, evaluating a card's value when dealt with at sorcery speed. I think Elesh Norn passes that: It eats one or two dudes, lets your guys attack for, like, a lot (mind you, there are fewer blockers now!) and trades if there is the sorcery speed removal, else she gets another good deal better. Not every opponent is going to have a Doom Blade on the spot, especially if he's not playing black.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
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**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
I only want one traditional finisher in my white section, and that card is Sun Titan. Eternal Dragon makes the cut alongside because it isn't a dead card early on and does a bunch of other interactions besides being a big flyer. Elesh Norn is more of a traditional finisher for me, and it doesn't oust Sun Titan from its slot. One of the worst things going for it is that it's actually pretty bad in the control mirror, as far as finishers go. I'd much rather have most any other finisher for that matchup. It's a pretty powerful card though and I'd maybe run it at 450 (my threshold for adding a second 6+ mana card).
Norn is really good. But being someone that exclusively plays powered 360 lists, I don't think she belongs there. The effect of her impact is too random, and 7 mana is too much. She's not that good in control; she's really a mid-range curve-topper. And she's usually 2 turns slower than Sun Titan, which generates consistent repeatable card advantage and bashes for 6. I will be attacking for my 18th damage with Sun Titan when I'm getting in with my first 4 damage from Norn.
That being said, I'd be playing her as an additional finisher in the 450 range, because she's the next best 6+cc creature available in that color.
Elesh Norn has been awesome in our limited testing of it here too.
What makes her so good is her wrath is permanent and in my cube she hits over half of all creatures in every color.
Creatures per color killed by Norn for my cube, not even factoring in ones she hoses (Myr Battlesphere, Hero of Bladehold) White 18/32, Blue 9/14, Black 16/24, Red 18/27, Green 19/35, Multicolor 6/13, Artifact 1/8 for ~57% of creatures.
If I can ever pick up an Elesh Norn for cheap, I'll be testing it. Until then, I don't care that much. Big 7+ mana creatures are pretty low on my priority list for getting for the cube.
That's where I'm at with her. I'd love to try her if I could get my hands on her, but I don't want drop 30 bucks on her.
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I run 8 drops if they're sufficiently awesome. I run 6 permanents at 8+ mana (not counting tombstalker): NBPW, Terastodon, Woofdall Primus, Sundering Titan, Sphinx of the Steel Wind and Kozilek. The first four all hit hard immediately. Sphinx of the Steel Wind is basically impossible to race and really hard to deal with, plus a lot of it's play is in tinker decks. And Kozilek really isn't good enough, but does have a big effect when you cast him and occasionally shows up in mana ramp. And most people rightfully don't run him.
Which is to say at 8 mana you don't just need to pass the vanilla test, you need to crush it. And Avacyn is nowhere close.
She's far worse than Elesh Norn. Norn is a beating, I wish more people would give her a chance.
This. So this. Out of the cards that I wish more people here gave a chance, Elesh Norn is definitely at the top, she's been stellar in my cube as one of the best finishers.
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I just recently cut Akroma, so I am minus one finisher. I was thinking of hopping on board the praetrain replacing Sunblast Angel with Elesh Norn. Yay or nay?
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I've said it before and I'll keep on saying it...Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is better than every other finisher in the cube outside of Wurmcoil Engine. I would run it in powered 360 without hesitation. I think it is simply that good and not running it in cube is a mistake.
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I'm quoting you on that one Kenny! You are a very convincing man.
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It costs 7 mana (7!), doesn't protect itself, and is a only a 5 turn clock...
As far as other finishers, we have some pretty ridiculous options; Wurmcoil is one, but Jace 3, Grave, Inferno, and Sun Titan are all much better as well. And all of those cost less. For 7 mana, I expect game-ending power on the level of Karn Liberated, not a oversized Shriekmaw who gets popped by Doom Blade. The only 7-cost cards I include at all are Pelakka Wurm (who passes the terminate test by a mile), Karn, and Myr Battlesphere.
I would probably include Elesh in a 450+ unpowered list. But at the 360 level, if you are paying 7 mana for something, it better by ending the game quickly, and if the cube is powered, 7 mana is too much for something that can't end the game in 2-3 turns.
I do think Elesh is better than our new Angel though.
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Pelakka wurm gives you life and a card. Norn kills a pile of dudes and usually nets you a lot more advantage than a single card and some life.
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which is great in midrange, but not always worthwhile in control.
Also, people have been suggesting the Vindicate test instead of the Doom Blade test, evaluating a card's value when dealt with at sorcery speed. I think Elesh Norn passes that: It eats one or two dudes, lets your guys attack for, like, a lot (mind you, there are fewer blockers now!) and trades if there is the sorcery speed removal, else she gets another good deal better. Not every opponent is going to have a Doom Blade on the spot, especially if he's not playing black.
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
I play her in my cube.;)
EDIT: Also she's been insane so far in testing, absolutely insane.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
That being said, I'd be playing her as an additional finisher in the 450 range, because she's the next best 6+cc creature available in that color.
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What makes her so good is her wrath is permanent and in my cube she hits over half of all creatures in every color.
Creatures per color killed by Norn for my cube, not even factoring in ones she hoses (Myr Battlesphere, Hero of Bladehold) White 18/32, Blue 9/14, Black 16/24, Red 18/27, Green 19/35, Multicolor 6/13, Artifact 1/8 for ~57% of creatures.
That's where I'm at with her. I'd love to try her if I could get my hands on her, but I don't want drop 30 bucks on her.
Demonlord of Ashmouth 2BB
Flying, Undying,
when enters the battlefield, exile it unless you sacrifice a creature.
5/4
Seems interesting, but probably not good enough for cube?
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Demonlord of Ashmouth! 2BB,
Creature - ???
Flying, Undying,
when enters the battlefield, exile it unless you sacrifice a creature.
5/4
Nifty trick (I think). Play it for 2bb, sacrifice it to itself, it comes back as a 6/5 flyer sac a different creature.
2BB and a second creature for a 6/5 flyer.
(not good enough)
*edit* F you bondafong for beating me to it.
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Silverblade Paladin - 1WW, 2/2, Soulbond (You may pair this creature with another unpaired creature when either enters the battlefield. They remain paired as long as you control both of them). As long as Silverblade Paladin is paired with another creature, both creatures have double strike.
Haha... Too slow.
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