I consider a fatty to be anything of 7 or more mana.
As I'm sure many of us have learned, the best fatties are the most versatile. Ones that can be both ramped to, reanimated, Channeled, Tinkered, and all the rest are highly valued since they fill multiple rolls in just one slot. Why dedicate one slot in your cube to Darksteel Colossus, one to Avenger of Zendikar, and one to Jin-Gitaxias, when one slot is filled with Myr Battlesphere?
I run a pretty tight list, and I value space quite a bit. What would you guys say are the "best" fatties to be running in a cube?
Not counting the ones you have pictured, I'd say Woodfall Primus, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Pelakka Wurm, Simic Sky Swallower, and the previously mentioned Avenger of Zendikar are some of the "best." That said, bigger cubes can definitely support more. In general, I think most "fatties" should fall under the green umbrella because ramping into them is a major strategy in green that involves actually paying the mana cost unlike reanimation, etc... that are less concerned with color.
Ever since I added Griselbrand my group has been drafting such big slow and clunky decks... and I love it! I ended up even including Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. Before I would classify my group as "competitive", we typically bet packs on my cube but I'm glad to see a new side of them!
Do we think Griselbrand is good? I personally don't, but man is he fun. Besides Myr Battlesphere (which all of my group thinks is one of the top 5 creatures in cube) he is probably the best reanimation target.
I tend to think of 6-drops and some 5-drops (especially Thornling or Morphling) as fatties and the 7+ CMC creatures as super-fatties. The former I consider to be castable in the course of a normal game, whereas I wouldn't run a 7+ creature without having some sort of ramp or way of cheating it into play (or possibly a very strong controlling deck where I was certain of surviving long enough, but even then I'd be happy with a 6-drop).
Because of this, the number you run I think depends on how much you support ramp/reanimator/cheat. If you want to push these archetypes, I think the 7+ cards are necessary, as they tend not to be picked up by the more traditional midrange/control decks and help support the more combo-like themes.
Edit: I don't count Tombstalker as a super-fatty. He is usually played for about 5 mana runs contrary to reanimator by removing cards from the yard. I also don't count Krosan Tusker as he is more often a 3-mana card draw/mana fixer, although can be a nice bonus in a reanimator deck, especially with Living Death.
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For white, it's Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. It's hands down the biggest impact 7+ mana creature in that color. I'd play her in anything 450 or bigger.
Blue doesn't have much in the way of superfatties, but if you're considering one, I'd go with Inkwell Leviathan. It's a good Tinker/Reanimation target, and I think it's a necessary part of the Tinker package for cubes 540+. If I played a lot of Winston and 4-man drafting, I'd include it at 500 to increase the number of Tinker targets available.
Black has a few decent fat creatures, but Griselbrand is my black fatty of choice. I think Griselbrand lies somewhere in the 500-630 range, and it's going to vary from group to group based on your reanimation support and how many Tinker/Natural Order targets your reanimation decks can steal.
Red's only real big fat option is Bogardan Hellkite. I don't think I'd play it until the 630+ range anymore, but it's a good creature if you're looking for a red one.
Green needs the most bomb fatties, but doesn't have a particularly deep suite of them. I think the best one is Woodfall Primus, followed by Hornet Queen. I'd play both of those even in the smallest of cubes, because ramping/cheating into those dudes is part of green's identity. Green also has Pelakka Wurm and Terastodon as other good creatures that are great for reanimating/Natural Ordering out.
Colorless has a couple of options I really like, namely Myr Battlesphere and Sundering Titan. I'd play both of those even in the tightest of cubes to help support both Tinker and Reanimation strategies, and they're both just incredible creatures.
Multicolor brings a few fat creatures to the table, namely Simic Sky Swallower and Sphinx of the Steel Wind. The first of the two is a solid ramp/control finisher in addition to being a great Natural Order target, and the latter is a great Tinker target and good artifact.dec/Esper ramp-control finisher. I'd play SSS at 360 (if you run Natural Order with it) and I'd get Sphinx in as my 4th good Tinker target at 450.
Inkwell Leviathan - The best blue fatty and great in all three kinds of fatty-decks. Palinchron - More of an combo-enabler than a fatty.
Griselbrand - The best black fatty. Rune-Scarred Demon - Ok reanimation or ramp target because it sets you up to rinse and repeat the next turn. Also great with Recurring Nightmare obv... Sheoldred, Whispering One - Primarily a reanimation target.
Avenger of Zendikar - Really good and funny ramp target. Not that good at reanimating though. Hornet Queen - The best green reanimation target. Also works great in token strategies. Pelakka Wurm - Solid all-around reanimation and ramp target. Terastodon - Good at hosing the opponent, or winning on the spot. Woodfall Primus - Good because it can remove any problem permanents other ramp targets can't deal with. Further more it's one of the best creatures to use with Sneak Attack.
Simic Sky Swallower - Good creature that's also often a curvetopper/finisher in control decks. Sphinx of the Steel Wind - Akroma's good cousin. Thraximundar - Better than most people think. This creature will just often win you the game. Hellkite Overlord - Big dude, that's what the Elder Dragon Legends wish they were.
Myr Battlesphere - The best artifact ramp creature. Can be (ab)used in so many ways. Sundering Titan - Feels so unfair each time it hits the table. And you always have to pick him up and read aloud "also when he leaves play, ehh...". Artisan of Kozilek - The smallest of the Eldrazi-family. Not very good, but acceptable. Kozilek, Butcher of Truth - The primary Eldrazi that deserves a cube-spot imo. It feels unfair when this guy is played. Even when countered. Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre - Worse than the other Eldrazi's but I still have him for tryout. Blightsteel Colossus - Solely there for the Artifact deck to abuse.
For those playing Griselbrand: It he just sort of an auto-win when he comes down?
And what I meant in the OP about 7+ CMC was just my general rule. You guys can all fatties whatever you want of course, and are free to discuss 5 and 6 drops or whatever as well
I just feel like 7 CMC are the ones you really have to have a dedicated deck to get to consistently.
Griselbrand is not as autowin as he is in constructed, where you guarantee kill cards in the rest of your deck - you need something to protect him, or some other finisher cards to keep up the pressure. That said, it's probably pretty hard to beat him.
Nicol Bolas, on the other hand, is pretty auto-win.
I've found Inkwell Leviathan to be very overrated. It's more difficult to hardcast than even cards like Griselbrand, and it's much less impressive once it's on the table. If you're cheating it into play somehow, you'd probably do just as well or better with almost any other card mentioned itt.
This is somewhat true (although shroud and a huge butt make it very resilent), but most other fatties do not double as Tinker targets. I think running Inkwell is OK at 450 and probably necessary at 540. I'm at 500 and tempted to run it again, but I probably won't because I brought in Sphinx of the Steel Wind instead.
Griselbrand is on the cusp of being a core card. It is quite commonly "just" a 7/7 lifelink flier if he only makes it into play when your opponent has got you low on life, but even then he allows you to stabilise and is somewhat resistant to removal on account of his toughness and blackness. He is by no means an autowin but if you have enough life to use his ability safely he is a pretty big beating.
Inkwell Leviathan and Bogardan Hellkite are only necessary in larger cubes or if, like me, you want to have a superfatty in each colour. Sphinx of the Steel Wind is probably a better tinker target than Leviathan, but it depends on how you feel about shard cards.
As well as the two Green fatties listed above, you'd probably want a third green target in a medium sized cube, and I think it could be either Pelakka Wurm or Terastodon. Out of curiosity, how do people tend to play Terastodon? Round here it most commonly seems to be that it destroys two of the opponent's permanent's and one of the controller's, resulting in a 2:1 power ratio in favour of the controller.
If you want to support the super-fatty archetypes, I think it helps to be generous with fatties. The support cards (reanimation spells, looting effects, mana accelerators, etc.) can fit into a number of archetypes and as such need to be picked highly. It helps that drafters can be confident that they will see the fatties they need relatively late. You probably don't want to overdo it, or the decks would draft themselves.
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Hellkite overlord was added in a recent update for almost no reason and saw extensive play in the last draft. My cube was having problems with solid natural order targets and he is really good for such a purpose. Being Tri-color hurts him a lot but i feel thats his biggest detriment. his abilities costing so little also allow him to be a pretty good reanimation target as well.
edit: sorry about that. I saw the buzz tried him out and i think he really did well is what im trying to say.
Do you mean Hellkite Overlord? There's been some buzz on these forums about trying him again, now that Natural Order, Sneak Attack, and reanimator are being pushed by so many cube designers.
There's also been a swell of removal that doesn't ignore regeneration, so his defensive abilities are more relevant than they used to be too. Too few of the superfatties have haste, and this guy has a big impact right away. If I find myself in need of other good reanimation/natural order targets in the future, I'll pay extra attention to him.
What would you guys say would be the ideal number of super fatties to include at each cube size in order to support archetypes like Natural Order ramp, Tinker, and reanimator?
What would you guys say would be the ideal number of super fatties to include at each cube size in order to support archetypes like Natural Order ramp, Tinker, and reanimator?
It depends on how many players you will typically have playing, so I don't think there is an easy answer to this.
I would consider running at least one target for each strategy that doesn't strongly compete with the others:
I like Sphinx of the Steel Wind as a tinker/reanimator overlap, and Gilded Lotus as a backup Tinker/Ramp card. Hellkite Overlord seems like a great NO/Reanimate target, but most NO/Tinker targets double as reanimator targets, so you shouldn't need that many dedicated targets. The great thing about these combos is that they work fine as value spells, especially if they are actually the most unfair things your cube can do. (Which, for my unpowered, fast mana-lite cube, they are.)
I don't play eldrazi mostly because I don't play channel, and the only other reason I have to run any of them is the interaction with stuff like Survival of the Fittest.
I like to have at least 4 good targets (at 450 anyways, 360 would need less and 540 might want more) for each of Tinker/Natural Order, and a couple more fatties for reanimator/ramp/etc. Since ramp and reanimator can use the targets used for NO and Tinker, they don't need as many dedicated pieces.
@Retra:
I don't like Progenitus in the pool of cube cards because alone it's downright awful to draft. You need to land NO or it's essentially a wasted slot. The other "fatties" you mentioned could at least be played (albiet, late-game bombs or reanimator shells).
@rantipole:
Hellkite definitely something to reconsider again
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I like to have at least 4 good targets (at 450 anyways, 360 would need less and 540 might want more) for each of Tinker/Natural Order, and a couple more fatties for reanimator/ramp/etc. Since ramp and reanimator can use the targets used for NO and Tinker, they don't need as many dedicated pieces.
Don't forget Sneak Attack in this equation. It slides nicely into reanimator and ramp builds. However, like reanimator, it's more flexible than Tinker and NO about what targets it needs.
All this talk of fatties makes me want to Sneak Attack out Hellkite Overloard and then Animate Dead it the next turn.
I'm thinking of dropping Broodmate Dragon for Hellkite Overlord to give NO decks an extra reason to exist. He also helps out reanimator and non NO ramp strategies. I'm also considering dropping one of my current blue 6 drops to bring Inkwell Leviathan back in as another Tinker target.
I still run the 10 and 11cc Eldrazi, but they only really work in big mana ramp strategies and Tooth and Nail decks. I've cut Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, and Eureka all for not really seeing much play. Maybe adding in these two fatties will warrant giving Sneak another chance.
Anyone tried Reaper King? It is not the best super fatty but it is the only thing I can find that can be had with tinker, natural order, reanimate, and ramp. Its a good size, and gets value if it dies even if you cheat it in. And as a bonus goes into 5-color control decks like a charm.
I'm not sure I saw a subject on this yet.
I consider a fatty to be anything of 7 or more mana.
As I'm sure many of us have learned, the best fatties are the most versatile. Ones that can be both ramped to, reanimated, Channeled, Tinkered, and all the rest are highly valued since they fill multiple rolls in just one slot. Why dedicate one slot in your cube to Darksteel Colossus, one to Avenger of Zendikar, and one to Jin-Gitaxias, when one slot is filled with Myr Battlesphere?
I run a pretty tight list, and I value space quite a bit. What would you guys say are the "best" fatties to be running in a cube?
Do we think Griselbrand is good? I personally don't, but man is he fun. Besides Myr Battlesphere (which all of my group thinks is one of the top 5 creatures in cube) he is probably the best reanimation target.
My fatty list: Griselbrand, Myr Battlesphere, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Hornet Queen, Woodfall Primus, and Sundering Titan. I have considered Craterhoof Behemoth but I do want my fatties to be killer in reanimator.
EDIT: Oh, and Simic Sky Swallower.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Because of this, the number you run I think depends on how much you support ramp/reanimator/cheat. If you want to push these archetypes, I think the 7+ cards are necessary, as they tend not to be picked up by the more traditional midrange/control decks and help support the more combo-like themes.
In my 450 cube I support reanimation and ramp with a few other cheating strategies, as well as having power and other fast mana. I have a super-fatty in each colour, with two extra in green, two in artifacts and one in multicolour. Ideally this would be Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Inkwell Leviathan, Griselbrand, Bogardan Hellkite, Woodfall Primus, Hornet Queen, Pelakka Wurm, Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan, and Simic Sky Swallower (there are still a couple of placeholders). Having extra artifact and green fatties helps Tinker and Natural Order/Green Sun's Zenith respectively. Having an average of one super-fatty in every three boosters helps ensure these archetypes are viable even when we have fewer than eight drafters.
Edit: I don't count Tombstalker as a super-fatty. He is usually played for about 5 mana runs contrary to reanimator by removing cards from the yard. I also don't count Krosan Tusker as he is more often a 3-mana card draw/mana fixer, although can be a nice bonus in a reanimator deck, especially with Living Death.
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Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan, Inkwell Leviathian and Woodfall Primus are the only fatties in my cube.
I used to run Bogardan Hellkite too (in addition to others listed in this thread)
Blue doesn't have much in the way of superfatties, but if you're considering one, I'd go with Inkwell Leviathan. It's a good Tinker/Reanimation target, and I think it's a necessary part of the Tinker package for cubes 540+. If I played a lot of Winston and 4-man drafting, I'd include it at 500 to increase the number of Tinker targets available.
Black has a few decent fat creatures, but Griselbrand is my black fatty of choice. I think Griselbrand lies somewhere in the 500-630 range, and it's going to vary from group to group based on your reanimation support and how many Tinker/Natural Order targets your reanimation decks can steal.
Red's only real big fat option is Bogardan Hellkite. I don't think I'd play it until the 630+ range anymore, but it's a good creature if you're looking for a red one.
Green needs the most bomb fatties, but doesn't have a particularly deep suite of them. I think the best one is Woodfall Primus, followed by Hornet Queen. I'd play both of those even in the smallest of cubes, because ramping/cheating into those dudes is part of green's identity. Green also has Pelakka Wurm and Terastodon as other good creatures that are great for reanimating/Natural Ordering out.
Colorless has a couple of options I really like, namely Myr Battlesphere and Sundering Titan. I'd play both of those even in the tightest of cubes to help support both Tinker and Reanimation strategies, and they're both just incredible creatures.
Multicolor brings a few fat creatures to the table, namely Simic Sky Swallower and Sphinx of the Steel Wind. The first of the two is a solid ramp/control finisher in addition to being a great Natural Order target, and the latter is a great Tinker target and good artifact.dec/Esper ramp-control finisher. I'd play SSS at 360 (if you run Natural Order with it) and I'd get Sphinx in as my 4th good Tinker target at 450.
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Akroma, Angel of Wrath - More of an throwback to old times. Definatly not that good anymore, but still a fine backup reanimation target.
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite - The best white fatty.
Inkwell Leviathan - The best blue fatty and great in all three kinds of fatty-decks.
Palinchron - More of an combo-enabler than a fatty.
Griselbrand - The best black fatty.
Rune-Scarred Demon - Ok reanimation or ramp target because it sets you up to rinse and repeat the next turn. Also great with Recurring Nightmare obv...
Sheoldred, Whispering One - Primarily a reanimation target.
Bogardan Hellkite - The best red fatty and the only one I run.
Avenger of Zendikar - Really good and funny ramp target. Not that good at reanimating though.
Hornet Queen - The best green reanimation target. Also works great in token strategies.
Pelakka Wurm - Solid all-around reanimation and ramp target.
Terastodon - Good at hosing the opponent, or winning on the spot.
Woodfall Primus - Good because it can remove any problem permanents other ramp targets can't deal with. Further more it's one of the best creatures to use with Sneak Attack.
Simic Sky Swallower - Good creature that's also often a curvetopper/finisher in control decks.
Sphinx of the Steel Wind - Akroma's good cousin.
Thraximundar - Better than most people think. This creature will just often win you the game.
Hellkite Overlord - Big dude, that's what the Elder Dragon Legends wish they were.
Myr Battlesphere - The best artifact ramp creature. Can be (ab)used in so many ways.
Sundering Titan - Feels so unfair each time it hits the table. And you always have to pick him up and read aloud "also when he leaves play, ehh...".
Artisan of Kozilek - The smallest of the Eldrazi-family. Not very good, but acceptable.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth - The primary Eldrazi that deserves a cube-spot imo. It feels unfair when this guy is played. Even when countered.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre - Worse than the other Eldrazi's but I still have him for tryout.
Blightsteel Colossus - Solely there for the Artifact deck to abuse.
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And what I meant in the OP about 7+ CMC was just my general rule. You guys can all fatties whatever you want of course, and are free to discuss 5 and 6 drops or whatever as well
I just feel like 7 CMC are the ones you really have to have a dedicated deck to get to consistently.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
Nicol Bolas, on the other hand, is pretty auto-win.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
This is somewhat true (although shroud and a huge butt make it very resilent), but most other fatties do not double as Tinker targets. I think running Inkwell is OK at 450 and probably necessary at 540. I'm at 500 and tempted to run it again, but I probably won't because I brought in Sphinx of the Steel Wind instead.
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Griselbrand is on the cusp of being a core card. It is quite commonly "just" a 7/7 lifelink flier if he only makes it into play when your opponent has got you low on life, but even then he allows you to stabilise and is somewhat resistant to removal on account of his toughness and blackness. He is by no means an autowin but if you have enough life to use his ability safely he is a pretty big beating.
Inkwell Leviathan and Bogardan Hellkite are only necessary in larger cubes or if, like me, you want to have a superfatty in each colour. Sphinx of the Steel Wind is probably a better tinker target than Leviathan, but it depends on how you feel about shard cards.
As well as the two Green fatties listed above, you'd probably want a third green target in a medium sized cube, and I think it could be either Pelakka Wurm or Terastodon. Out of curiosity, how do people tend to play Terastodon? Round here it most commonly seems to be that it destroys two of the opponent's permanent's and one of the controller's, resulting in a 2:1 power ratio in favour of the controller.
If you want to support the super-fatty archetypes, I think it helps to be generous with fatties. The support cards (reanimation spells, looting effects, mana accelerators, etc.) can fit into a number of archetypes and as such need to be picked highly. It helps that drafters can be confident that they will see the fatties they need relatively late. You probably don't want to overdo it, or the decks would draft themselves.
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Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Myr Battlesphere are both great cube cards that I would like to fit back in at some point.
edit: sorry about that. I saw the buzz tried him out and i think he really did well is what im trying to say.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
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It depends on how many players you will typically have playing, so I don't think there is an easy answer to this.
I would consider running at least one target for each strategy that doesn't strongly compete with the others:
Natural Order: Woodfall Primus, Hornet Queen, Simic Sky Swallower, Progenitus(?)
Tinker: Myr Battlesphere, Inkwell Leviathan, Sundering Titan, Blightsteel Collosus(?)
Reanimator: Griselbrand, Elesh Norn
I like Sphinx of the Steel Wind as a tinker/reanimator overlap, and Gilded Lotus as a backup Tinker/Ramp card. Hellkite Overlord seems like a great NO/Reanimate target, but most NO/Tinker targets double as reanimator targets, so you shouldn't need that many dedicated targets. The great thing about these combos is that they work fine as value spells, especially if they are actually the most unfair things your cube can do. (Which, for my unpowered, fast mana-lite cube, they are.)
I don't play eldrazi mostly because I don't play channel, and the only other reason I have to run any of them is the interaction with stuff like Survival of the Fittest.
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I don't like Progenitus in the pool of cube cards because alone it's downright awful to draft. You need to land NO or it's essentially a wasted slot. The other "fatties" you mentioned could at least be played (albiet, late-game bombs or reanimator shells).
@rantipole:
Hellkite definitely something to reconsider again
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Don't forget Sneak Attack in this equation. It slides nicely into reanimator and ramp builds. However, like reanimator, it's more flexible than Tinker and NO about what targets it needs.
All this talk of fatties makes me want to Sneak Attack out Hellkite Overloard and then Animate Dead it the next turn.
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I still run the 10 and 11cc Eldrazi, but they only really work in big mana ramp strategies and Tooth and Nail decks. I've cut Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, and Eureka all for not really seeing much play. Maybe adding in these two fatties will warrant giving Sneak another chance.
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