I would play them in bigger lists. But in smaller lists hey not only seem unnecessary, but they make it too easy for players to get super greedy with their mana. 4-5 color control is good enough without 10 more tools that would make them even better.
I am just putting the finishing touches on my 450 unpowered. My typical playgroup is 2-4, with a very occasional 8-10 man draft. When we play 2 player we typically solomon draft or play sealed.
I've been considering cutting the 4th land from each guild pair for the 5 vivids and 5 tri's to help enable splashing, which is often necessary due the limited card selection in two player games. I'm concerned that this move could hurt aggro (specifically in the case of BW and RW as I'd be cutting pain lands), or could turbo charge multi color control, as mentioned above. Do you guys think the benefit of splashability outweighs the potential con's?
I run the vivid lands currently at 495 and have no interest in the Trilands. As it was discussed in the create a card thread, you don't usually need them for more than a few off color spells and the vivids are more flexible than the trilands for what decks they can go in.
I ran Vivids until the Worldwake Manduals came out. They are definitely solid and help splashing. While the Trilands fix, too, the Vivids are especially good in smaller draft pools (and sealed pools) where you often end up with three color decks, which might not necessarilly be in shards colors. They make 4-5 color control decks a bit more common though. This may be something to look out for. The amount of 4+ color decks has gone noticibly down since I cut both Vivids and Bouncelands from my cube. (Well, I also improved aggro during the same time, which is certainly also a factor.)
I used to play both, but recently removed the shard-lands, and haven't missed them.
I like the Vivids though - especially because they're fixing primarily for the slower decks. Most of the other fixing I use are very good for aggro-decks and thus picked up fast by the aggro-drafters.
I'm surprised there's so much hate for the tri-lands. My playgroup loves them and they're always snapped up halfway through the pack, and almost always see maindeck play. Obviously worse than shocks, fetches and duals, but good nevertheless.
Well, yeah, multicolor decks are still around. I'm not trying to kill off the multicolor archetypes by not using any of those lands at 720+. Trilands force you to think about whether you want them as a glorified tapland (Coastal Tower and company) or whether they can enable you to reach for that splash you were contemplating. Whereas Vivid lands are five free Cities of Brass (or five free Grand Coliseums, if we need to get literal). Having six Cities of Brass instead of one City of Brass + five taplands that occasionally enable your splash makes a huge difference in a draft.
Again, I'll have to note that I don't run fetches/alpha duals/shocks in mine, so these really help with being able to splash and play 3-5 color control decks.
I would imagine that good multicolor decks would still be available without either of the cycles. Even at 720.
And they are. I've tried my cube with and without the Shard lands, and I like the multicolored consistency provided by them, so I keep them.
I haven't ever cubed with the vivids, but I feel like they lend more to decks looking for a small splash than a deck reliant on a certain kind of mana.
I've always loved the Trilands in my cube. I've got the ABU duals, fetches, and shocks, but I've always enjoyed that each triland functioned as Coastal Tower and friends for 3 different color combinations. I'm trying to think about what it might be like to cut them.
I drafted Grixis reanimator last night, and I had Savage Lands, Arcane Sanctum, and Crumbling Necropolis in my deck. I also had a few duals, fetches, and shocks, and the mana was pretty great. I did have those 3 lands that CIPT, but in general I was happy to have the extra fixing.
For those of you who don't run Vivids or Shards in 450 or 540, what colorfixing lands do you run besides Duals, Shocks, and Fetches? Maybe I'm just running too many colorfixers.
Instead of running Vivids/Trilands, I run one more cycle of duals for each color combination. Just customize your 4th favorite group of lands. I prefer that, because it still gives fixing to the decks that want it without overdoing the support for 4-5 color-control; which is already plenty competitive without being able to auto-draft itself with an abundance of lands that fix 3+ colors simultaneously. And in decks that are only playing 2 colors, the quality of that 4th fixing land will be higher than that of a Triland or Vivid, and far less likely to be stolen by drafters playing multicolor control builds.
Instead of running Vivids/Trilands, I run one more cycle of duals for each color combination. Just customize your 4th favorite group of lands. I prefer that, because it still gives fixing to the decks that want it without overdoing the support for 4-5 color-control; which is already plenty competitive without being able to auto-draft itself with an abundance of lands that fix 3+ colors simultaneously. And in decks that are only playing 2 colors, the quality of that 4th fixing land will be higher than that of a Triland or Vivid, and far less likely to be stolen by drafters playing multicolor control builds.
Heh. I do that too already Probably just running too much land. I've got the full cycle of Worldwake Manlands, plus I run some other special fixing lands for each color like Horizon Canopy, Battlefield Forge, etc. In the blue combinations, that special slot has the signets. Then I also run a stack of 5C lands and the shards.
Someone should create an MCD about land -> spell ratio in cube. I'd be intrigued to see what an average list does. I'll try to get motivated to do that some day
My policy on lands that only fix? Can they make colored mana on turn one? Yes, then keep. No, then get the hell out (Expanse and Wilds being the only exceptions I believe)
Yeah, I think running a certain amount of dual cycles is a necessity, but I haven't really seen anyone formulate a cogent theory that considered the best options at each size. It would be good material for an article. With 8 manafixers per guild (including stuff like Signets and Talismans) I feel like I have more than enough fixing for players. Trilands are the bone I throw to three+ colored decks, because it's definitely not close to being an auto-draft. Maybe with Vivids, but not trilands.
I run these for now in my cube. I don't own all 10 shocks or fetches. (I don't see myself getting the other 4 ONS fetches anytime soon:/) more often than not they just act as extra duals as opposed to supporting 4-5c decks, which was my intention. Personally for my cube I want to push 2c decks as much as possible. With the occasional splash but that's my preference. If I were to acquire the ABU's and the rest of the Shocks/fetches i'd cut them for sure.
Edit: My cube is 360, has 30 color-fixing lands, and no signets. Again, personal philosophy.
Once I complete my set of Checklands, I, going to cut Vivids. Between 10 Signets, 10 Karoos, and 10 Checklands, adding the 5 Vivids watered down the packs too much with mana.
I'm surprised there's so much hate for the tri-lands. My playgroup loves them and they're always snapped up halfway through the pack, and almost always see maindeck play. Obviously worse than shocks, fetches and duals, but good nevertheless.
It's because it's mana fixing.... Even mediocre fixing is worth picking up and will see play since its only competing with basics for MD slot. Your statement is an argument to have higher land counts really. We are at 18% and could still go higher IMO.
BTW ... Vivids are better than trilands. Vivids are actually more playable than most lands if not more powerful in a specific color combo.
These lands aren't getting much love these days. Do you guys think they are justifiable to run in a non-peasant cube? If so, why would you run them?
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I've been considering cutting the 4th land from each guild pair for the 5 vivids and 5 tri's to help enable splashing, which is often necessary due the limited card selection in two player games. I'm concerned that this move could hurt aggro (specifically in the case of BW and RW as I'd be cutting pain lands), or could turbo charge multi color control, as mentioned above. Do you guys think the benefit of splashability outweighs the potential con's?
I have been thinking of trying the shard lands, but I'm still not sure about that.
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I like the Vivids though - especially because they're fixing primarily for the slower decks. Most of the other fixing I use are very good for aggro-decks and thus picked up fast by the aggro-drafters.
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Wouldn't that increase the influence of multicolor decks? I mean, in comparison to not using them at all?
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Using them instead of Vivid lands would decrease the influence of multicolor decks a bit.
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And they are. I've tried my cube with and without the Shard lands, and I like the multicolored consistency provided by them, so I keep them.
I haven't ever cubed with the vivids, but I feel like they lend more to decks looking for a small splash than a deck reliant on a certain kind of mana.
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I drafted Grixis reanimator last night, and I had Savage Lands, Arcane Sanctum, and Crumbling Necropolis in my deck. I also had a few duals, fetches, and shocks, and the mana was pretty great. I did have those 3 lands that CIPT, but in general I was happy to have the extra fixing.
For those of you who don't run Vivids or Shards in 450 or 540, what colorfixing lands do you run besides Duals, Shocks, and Fetches? Maybe I'm just running too many colorfixers.
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Heh. I do that too already Probably just running too much land. I've got the full cycle of Worldwake Manlands, plus I run some other special fixing lands for each color like Horizon Canopy, Battlefield Forge, etc. In the blue combinations, that special slot has the signets. Then I also run a stack of 5C lands and the shards.
Someone should create an MCD about land -> spell ratio in cube. I'd be intrigued to see what an average list does. I'll try to get motivated to do that some day
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Edit: My cube is 360, has 30 color-fixing lands, and no signets. Again, personal philosophy.
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It's because it's mana fixing.... Even mediocre fixing is worth picking up and will see play since its only competing with basics for MD slot. Your statement is an argument to have higher land counts really. We are at 18% and could still go higher IMO.
BTW ... Vivids are better than trilands. Vivids are actually more playable than most lands if not more powerful in a specific color combo.
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