One of my favorite cards I've never owned or played with is Chaos Orb. And now that I'm getting into cube, I've finally in a format where the orb can be legal. But how to play it? I know some people play it as worded and other people use it as a colorless Vindicate ("destroy target permanent"). I assume you can't spread out cards within arms reach without getting up? Are you allowed to do this after Chaos Orb is cast? After it's activated? Are you allowed to do this at all?
Do you play with Chaos Orb in your cube?
If you play Chaos Orb as worded, what house rules do you play with?
How do you play it?
I want to pick one of these up, but I just can't justify it because of the fear of it being too obnoxious to physically play with and against.
1. Yes I recently added it, happily.
2. Not played as worded - see #3
3. The user has the choice of either using it as a colourless vindicate or to flip it as said on the card. If the second option is picked, the defending player can reorganize their permanents however they wish on the table surface. No one has ever chosen this mode, however I left it as an option in case the dream scenario occurred:
Mindslaver activation. On the players stolen turn, make the player reorder their permanents in a very tight circle formation, then activate Chaos Orb for maximum value. Sadly no one has drafted this abomination of a deck yet
In my opinion, colorless vindicate is kind of sad errata because it takes a card that's so weird and unusual and makes it normal. However, playing the card as written is annoying because people then spread their lands out or it causes other disruptions to how people would like to play. I thought the house rule that it must be flipped, and then can only destroy one thing it lands on is a good compromise. The only problem is that it can't inadvertently land on one of your own permanents with this errata.
I also think the flipping mechanic itself is confusing. How does one "flip it"? Like a coin? Can you "spin" the card (a much more accurate way)? In my experience, the coin way is the most fun. Essentially, you have to define that it must spin over the face/back dimension 360 degrees.
Now, I will say I've never played with the Orb in cube, but I have played with it in casual before.
vindicate or to flip it as said on the card. If the second option is picked, the defending player can reorganize their permanents however they wish on the table surface. No one has ever chosen this mode, however I left it as an option in case the dream scenario occurred:
Mindslaver activation. On the players stolen turn, make the player reorder their permanents in a very tight circle formation, then activate Chaos Orb for maximum value. Sadly no one has drafted this abomination of a deck yet
I kind of like that. For my cube, I'm thinking it'll have to be played as worded, but I may copy what you do where the rearranging of the cards is part of the effect.
I thought it would have been more obnoxious because everyone would be afraid to stack their land (for example) even if they don't know an opponent has the orb in the deck. But that makes more sense to spread them out, then put them all back the way they were.
You can arrange your cards any time before the Orb is put onto the battlefield, but not after. In general, you should not stack cards or put them in places where your opponent can't read the names of all of them or count them. This is recommended good gaming practice.
Read the second ruling and if it were played that way (can't arrange cards after orb is cast) makes it kind of playable and effects every game of anyone's match in the cube. I don't get that. I guess they weren't thinking about drafting or cube when they wrote those rulings.
I kind of like that. For my cube, I'm thinking it'll have to be played as worded, but I may copy what you do where the rearranging of the cards is part of the effect.
I thought it would have been more obnoxious because everyone would be afraid to stack their land (for example) even if they don't know an opponent has the orb in the deck. But that makes more sense to spread them out, then put them all back the way they were.
Other ways I have seen is that once the Chaos Orb is cast the opponent is able to rearrange their permanents. However in response to the trigger, no more movement of cards is allowed. This means that if the opponent moves their lands together by accident you can really get them. I don't like it because it feels cheap.
The best way I've seen to flip to Orb is to grasp it by opposing corners and roll your thumb relative to your forefinger to spin it in the air. It tends not to fly all over the place. With good sleeves it certainly helps add weight to the flip.
Other ways I have seen is that once the Chaos Orb is cast the opponent is able to rearrange their permanents. However in response to the trigger, no more movement of cards is allowed. This means that if the opponent moves their lands together by accident you can really get them. I don't like it because it feels cheap.
That's pretty good too.
In a way, this actually follows the official oracle text and rulings. The ruling says "...any time before the Orb is put onto the battlefield." So it doesn't say not to pause from play while the orb is on the stack and give your opponent time to rearrange his permanents.
Read the second ruling and if it were played that way (can't arrange cards after orb is cast) makes it kind of playable and effects every game of anyone's match in the cube. I don't get that. I guess they weren't thinking about drafting or cube when they wrote those rulings.
The second ruling says that you can rearrange permanents before it's on the battlefield.
10/4/2004: You can arrange your cards any time before the Orb is put onto the battlefield, but not after.
So while the Orb is on the stack, you rearrange your permanents, and then it resolves.
..........
Either flip the card, or don't play it. Making it a colorless Vindicate is silly, in my opinion, because it's not what the card does. It would be no different than giving your Goblin Guide a 3rd power just for the hell of it. I don't like the idea of made-up house rules that change what a card does.
Either flip the card, or don't play it. Making it a colorless Vindicate is silly, in my opinion, because it's not what the card does. It would be no different than giving your Goblin Guide a 3rd power just for the hell of it. I don't like the idea of made-up house rules that change what a card does.
Agreed, and I don't play it because manual dexterity cards aren't really part of the game any more, and the hassle of having to separate every permanent I control by > one card's diagonal length apart is totally not worth it. But if I did, I'd flip it.
But, that's not what Chaos Orb does. Can I change Squire to a 4/4? I'd cube with that.
That [cube] errata existed long before any member on this forum decided to make their own format with their own pack sizes, sideboard rules, and whatever other house rules people have used over the years. That errata has been commonly accepted for half of Chaos Orb's life.
If the cube community decided that it made for a better experience to make Squire a 4/4, I'd be happy to test it out. I mean, this is a made up format for a flipping collectible card game with dragons, angels, and zombies for crying out loud.
That [cube] errata existed long before any member on this forum decided to make their own format with their own pack sizes, sideboard rules, and whatever other house rules people have used over the years. That errata has been commonly accepted for half of Chaos Orb's life.
If the cube community decided that it made for a better experience to make Squire a 4/4, I'd be happy to test it out. I mean, this is a made up format for a flipping collectible card game with dragons, angels, and zombies for crying out loud.
So, because someone made up rules for it a long time ago it's somehow different? IDK, it just seems like a cheap out to me. We use Oracle text for everything for the sake of simplification and fairness. Giving completely new text to a card doesn't seem right to me.
Just because there's zombies and dragons in Magic doesn't mean that pretend cards are somehow more legitimate.
Squire would be better as a 4/4. You should cube it that way. Why not, right? For crying out loud, there's angels and dragons in Magic!
You know what cards aren't legitimate? Moxen, Sol Ring, Lotus, etc. They were printed before anyone had any concept of balance in cards, and they play like un-cards, completely breaking matches. What makes them legitimate when Chaos Orb isn't? Also, Chaos Orb is basically Vindicate with a potential upside, the errata is just to save time.
Practically speaking, this is exactly what Chaos Orb does, assuming sufficient space for a player to sufficiently spread out his permanents and a competent flipper.
There's always a chance they can miss. That's how the card was intended to be played out. That's the "chaos" of the Chaos Orb.
Quote from meep »
You know what cards aren't legitimate? Moxen, Sol Ring, Lotus, etc. They were printed before anyone had any concept of balance in cards, and they play like un-cards, completely breaking matches. What makes them legitimate when Chaos Orb isn't? Also, Chaos Orb is basically Vindicate with a potential upside, the errata is just to save time.
I find them plenty legitimate. They're all vintage legal, and they do what's printed on the card, what's on the oracle wording, and play as they were intended to be played.
It's not basically a Vindicate with an upside. The card requires you to flip it. It was intended to have and designed with the ability to miss. The randomness of the effect is part of the design. When you take that away, it doesn't play out like it was intended to, and it doesn't play as it was designed. Other powerful cards were made better than they should've been, but they at least do what they were intended to do. Even new cards have the same problem with accidentally being more broken than they were supposed to be. That's not the same thing as making up rules to have a card do something totally different.
..........
But we've already had this debate 100 times. Is anything new going to be presented the 101st time? Because if not, we should really just skip it altogether.
I think the whole point of Chaos Orb is that it's...chaotic. Turning it into the most boring artifact ever seems to be missing the point. If you're going to errata the crap out of it, at least make it fun.
I think the whole point of Chaos Orb is that it's...chaotic. Turning it into the most boring artifact ever seems to be missing the point. If you're going to errata the crap out of it, at least make it fun.
How many times have you played Chaos Orb as such? The erratad version is actually very fun and balanced! Extra LD and PW hate is always welcome.
The second ruling says that you can rearrange permanents before it's on the battlefield.
So while the Orb is on the stack, you rearrange your permanents, and then it resolves.
You're not getting my meaning. I'm just pointing out that the ruling is saying more of what you can't do and less of what you should do.
As for the ruling itself, I'm agreeing with you.
After some thought I've decided to keep my $60+ and not include Chaos Orb in my cube. The only reason I wanted it was for nostalgic reasons. If it were printed in Unglued or Unhinged, I wouldn't even think twice about it. The nostalgia was hypnotizing for a while, but I snapped out of it.
How many times have you played Chaos Orb as such? The erratad version is actually very fun and balanced! Extra LD and PW hate is always welcome.
I have never played Chaos Orb as such, but it doesn't stretch the limits of my imagination to know what it would feel like. I have absolutely zero doubt that it is welcome and even mildly balanced (though some might argue it further pushes cubers towards blue). I have been playing since Chaos Orb was showing up at tournaments (and yes, I've seen someone play their cards vertically) and this effect is no where close to that card. I've seen a hundred flips of this thing, and I understand errata'ing it into something else, but this just feels like an excuse to make up a good card that feels nothing like the original.
To me, this would be like turning all of the Wishes into their respective tutors. That said, it's cube, so to each his own.
1, T: Sacrifice Chaos Orb. Roll a D10. If you roll a 1, Chaos Orb has no effect. Otherwise, destroy target permanent.
Maybe. But it doesn't involve die-rolling, it involves card flipping.
Chaos Orb is a cool and iconic card with a rich Magic history. Playing it as it was intended to be played is really badass. But playing it with completely custom text just takes all the fun and flavor of the card away.
I would play Chaos Orb with its Oracle wording, along with a gentlemen's agreement - Play like you normally would, don't make stupid little piles, don't try to hack it, and in general don't try to make the card un-fun. So in other words, only with a small group of close knit friends.
Unfortunately I cube with a lot of different people so it doesn't work out. Someone is always that guy. So meh to Chaos Orb.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My apologies, children, for I am afraid I cannot save you all.
My current rule is to exile it and you destroy one permanent, no targeting. That means it can hit shroud / hexproof. I found that being able to recur the orb makes it too powerful when using the "destroy" wording.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
L1 MtG judge (L2 coming soon) and Dominion tournament coordinator serving Flint MI and its surrounding cities.
One of my favorite cards I've never owned or played with is Chaos Orb. And now that I'm getting into cube, I've finally in a format where the orb can be legal. But how to play it? I know some people play it as worded and other people use it as a colorless Vindicate ("destroy target permanent"). I assume you can't spread out cards within arms reach without getting up? Are you allowed to do this after Chaos Orb is cast? After it's activated? Are you allowed to do this at all?
I want to pick one of these up, but I just can't justify it because of the fear of it being too obnoxious to physically play with and against.
Thread | Draft
2. Not played as worded - see #3
3. The user has the choice of either using it as a colourless vindicate or to flip it as said on the card. If the second option is picked, the defending player can reorganize their permanents however they wish on the table surface. No one has ever chosen this mode, however I left it as an option in case the dream scenario occurred:
Mindslaver activation. On the players stolen turn, make the player reorder their permanents in a very tight circle formation, then activate Chaos Orb for maximum value. Sadly no one has drafted this abomination of a deck yet
My Tribal Cube
EDH Decks
GOmnath, Locus of ManaG
WUBSen TripletsWUB
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG
I also think the flipping mechanic itself is confusing. How does one "flip it"? Like a coin? Can you "spin" the card (a much more accurate way)? In my experience, the coin way is the most fun. Essentially, you have to define that it must spin over the face/back dimension 360 degrees.
Now, I will say I've never played with the Orb in cube, but I have played with it in casual before.
I kind of like that. For my cube, I'm thinking it'll have to be played as worded, but I may copy what you do where the rearranging of the cards is part of the effect.
I thought it would have been more obnoxious because everyone would be afraid to stack their land (for example) even if they don't know an opponent has the orb in the deck. But that makes more sense to spread them out, then put them all back the way they were.
edit: Looking at the Rulings at the bottom of Gatherer: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=301
Read the second ruling and if it were played that way (can't arrange cards after orb is cast) makes it kind of playable and effects every game of anyone's match in the cube. I don't get that. I guess they weren't thinking about drafting or cube when they wrote those rulings.
Thread | Draft
Other ways I have seen is that once the Chaos Orb is cast the opponent is able to rearrange their permanents. However in response to the trigger, no more movement of cards is allowed. This means that if the opponent moves their lands together by accident you can really get them. I don't like it because it feels cheap.
The best way I've seen to flip to Orb is to grasp it by opposing corners and roll your thumb relative to your forefinger to spin it in the air. It tends not to fly all over the place. With good sleeves it certainly helps add weight to the flip.
My Tribal Cube
EDH Decks
GOmnath, Locus of ManaG
WUBSen TripletsWUB
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG
That's pretty good too.
In a way, this actually follows the official oracle text and rulings. The ruling says "...any time before the Orb is put onto the battlefield." So it doesn't say not to pause from play while the orb is on the stack and give your opponent time to rearrange his permanents.
Thread | Draft
The second ruling says that you can rearrange permanents before it's on the battlefield.
So while the Orb is on the stack, you rearrange your permanents, and then it resolves.
..........
Either flip the card, or don't play it. Making it a colorless Vindicate is silly, in my opinion, because it's not what the card does. It would be no different than giving your Goblin Guide a 3rd power just for the hell of it. I don't like the idea of made-up house rules that change what a card does.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Agreed, and I don't play it because manual dexterity cards aren't really part of the game any more, and the hassle of having to separate every permanent I control by > one card's diagonal length apart is totally not worth it. But if I did, I'd flip it.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Chaos Orb
T Sacrifice Chaos Orb: Destroy Target Permanent
I've had this in my list since day one and wouldn't cube without it.
Joy of Cubing Podcast
My 600 Card Unpowered Cube
My Combo Cube
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
If the cube community decided that it made for a better experience to make Squire a 4/4, I'd be happy to test it out. I mean, this is a made up format for a flipping collectible card game with dragons, angels, and zombies for crying out loud.
Joy of Cubing Podcast
My 600 Card Unpowered Cube
My Combo Cube
So, because someone made up rules for it a long time ago it's somehow different? IDK, it just seems like a cheap out to me. We use Oracle text for everything for the sake of simplification and fairness. Giving completely new text to a card doesn't seem right to me.
Just because there's zombies and dragons in Magic doesn't mean that pretend cards are somehow more legitimate.
Squire would be better as a 4/4. You should cube it that way. Why not, right? For crying out loud, there's angels and dragons in Magic!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
There's always a chance they can miss. That's how the card was intended to be played out. That's the "chaos" of the Chaos Orb.
I find them plenty legitimate. They're all vintage legal, and they do what's printed on the card, what's on the oracle wording, and play as they were intended to be played.
It's not basically a Vindicate with an upside. The card requires you to flip it. It was intended to have and designed with the ability to miss. The randomness of the effect is part of the design. When you take that away, it doesn't play out like it was intended to, and it doesn't play as it was designed. Other powerful cards were made better than they should've been, but they at least do what they were intended to do. Even new cards have the same problem with accidentally being more broken than they were supposed to be. That's not the same thing as making up rules to have a card do something totally different.
..........
But we've already had this debate 100 times. Is anything new going to be presented the 101st time? Because if not, we should really just skip it altogether.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Joy of Cubing Podcast
My 600 Card Unpowered Cube
My Combo Cube
You're not getting my meaning. I'm just pointing out that the ruling is saying more of what you can't do and less of what you should do.
As for the ruling itself, I'm agreeing with you.
After some thought I've decided to keep my $60+ and not include Chaos Orb in my cube. The only reason I wanted it was for nostalgic reasons. If it were printed in Unglued or Unhinged, I wouldn't even think twice about it. The nostalgia was hypnotizing for a while, but I snapped out of it.
Rejecting Chaos Orb
Thread | Draft
I have never played Chaos Orb as such, but it doesn't stretch the limits of my imagination to know what it would feel like. I have absolutely zero doubt that it is welcome and even mildly balanced (though some might argue it further pushes cubers towards blue). I have been playing since Chaos Orb was showing up at tournaments (and yes, I've seen someone play their cards vertically) and this effect is no where close to that card. I've seen a hundred flips of this thing, and I understand errata'ing it into something else, but this just feels like an excuse to make up a good card that feels nothing like the original.
To me, this would be like turning all of the Wishes into their respective tutors. That said, it's cube, so to each his own.
Maybe. But it doesn't involve die-rolling, it involves card flipping.
Chaos Orb is a cool and iconic card with a rich Magic history. Playing it as it was intended to be played is really badass. But playing it with completely custom text just takes all the fun and flavor of the card away.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Having to spread out all your cards in a really unintuitive manner can be argued as being more un-fun.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
Unfortunately I cube with a lot of different people so it doesn't work out. Someone is always that guy. So meh to Chaos Orb.
Which is why one could argue not cubing it.
But most importantly, the errata removes its ability to miss (or even backfire!) and it changes the functionality of the card.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!