Hm, maybe I should have called this thread "Heavy black" instead of "Mono black" to prevent some confusion. I think I am changing the thread title a bit.
Quote from Trunkers »
The only mono-black card I run is Gatekeeper of Malakir, but intend on testing Geralf's Messenger soon.
Gatekeeper can be good, but Messenger is the more powerful card. If decks that can play the former on turn three or four get drafted in your cube, you should definitely give the latter a try.
I think the biggest factor for "going black" is your play group. If you have small drafts, Winston draft with any frequency, and/or do sealed then monoblack likely won't be a good choice for you? If you have full draft tables when you Cube, then it's solid IMO. We have big draft groups, and Obliterator (the 2nd best pull into monoblack IMHO) and Lashwrithe have been great here. For those that say Obliterator dies to removal ... he cost 4 ... And half the cube's removal (red) is horrible obviously. His cost should be the factor for not including, and monoblack support based on playgroup is the question.
Obliterator is not only unblockable, but also a Moat and is Indesteuctable.
Not really. I can still attack into it, especially if I have a whole team of attackers and I only need two rounds of combat to kill you. A BBBB blocker isn't worth playing. So I need to evaluate it as a threat. And a 5/5 unblockable isn't worth four colored mana symbols. And it's far from indestructible. It just has a pseudo pro:red against burn spells. And even then, I can still kill it if worse comes to worse. It would be a good creature at 1BBB, but at quad black he just doesn't hack it. The interference that it has with my lands that tap for colorless is a big drawback too.
I'm not arguing 4 black aren't a lot. But it's not like it's uncastable.
And to say it's just a 5/5 unblockable simply don't give the card credit enough. It's a lot more than that... Protection against wildfire/earthquakes, holds down entire armies, etc.
Necro and Messenger are the ones worth running that pull me into monoblack. The other ones aren't good enough, other than the Nantuko Shade that you should run anyway regardless of mono support.
While Necropotence and/or Geralf's Messenger should be enough to pull a drafter into mono/heavy black, I think it would be good to include a few more cards that reward the player for drafting this strategy. Cards that may be weaker than those two or that also fit into other deck types, but that everyone would still be happy to have in his mono/heavy black deck. If I pick one of the two power black cards early and go for this kind of deck, but end up with a bunch of cards that would have gone into any BX deck, I wonder if drafting such a restricted deck was actually worth it. I could have picked up more cards from color X to get a more balanced deck, but I didn't, just to play one specific card? One card that I may not even draw in the majority of games. Now, if I had a few more cards that work best in mono/heavy black, I would be a lot happier that I committed to that archetype.
After drafting an almost mono black deck (with 13 or 14 Swamps, depending on how I sideboarded), I have to say that Lashwrithe is just as good as Geralf's Messenger. It came down as at least a 3/3 on turn four and attacked as a 4/4 during the next turn. And it even grew bigger and bigger the longer the game went. And while the Messengers survives one creature removal, Lashwrithe kind of survives all of them. As long as the opponent doesn't have artifact removal (which is scarcer than creature removal), you will always have a 6/6 or bigger on the board. All my opponnents agreed that Lashwrithe was one of the scariest cards in my deck - and I had every card I pictured in the opening post, safe Liliana.
While Necropotence and/or Geralf's Messenger should be enough to pull a drafter into mono/heavy black, I think it would be good to include a few more cards that reward the player for drafting this strategy. Cards that may be weaker than those two or that also fit into other deck types, but that everyone would still be happy to have in his mono/heavy black deck. If I pick one of the two power black cards early and go for this kind of deck, but end up with a bunch of cards that would have gone into any BX deck, I wonder if drafting such a restricted deck was actually worth it. I could have picked up more cards from color X to get a more balanced deck, but I didn't, just to play one specific card? One card that I may not even draw in the majority of games. Now, if I had a few more cards that work best in mono/heavy black, I would be a lot happier that I committed to that archetype.
After drafting an almost mono black deck (with 13 or 14 Swamps, depending on how I sideboarded), I have to say that Lashwrithe is just as good as Geralf's Messenger. It came down as at least a 3/3 on turn four and attacked as a 4/4 during the next turn. And it even grew bigger and bigger the longer the game went. And while the Messengers survives one creature removal, Lashwrithe kind of survives all of them. As long as the opponent doesn't have artifact removal (which is scarcer than creature removal), you will always have a 6/6 or bigger on the board. All my opponnents agreed that Lashwrithe was one of the scariest cards in my deck - and I had every card I pictured in the opening post, safe Liliana.
You're probably right. Lashwrithe should be really strong with monoblack support. I've not looked further into supporting monoblack, however, owing to the problems in drafting mono-colour decks in 2 man Winston formats - which is our primary format, particularly recently. It's very risky, and sometimes there just aren't enough cards to even make it acheivable. As much as I love Messenger and Necro, and how strong they've been, I'll probably have to cut them in the near future because of our drafting habits
Narrow draft strategies like monoblack, Splinter Twin combo or the artifact deck in unpowered cubes are harder to pull off, the fewer drafters there are. I only added these three because we're always six or more player these days. If you only draft with four or less, I would stay away from such narrow strategies and include more cards that are universally good.
I love drafting heavy or mono black decks. Historically, it's the only control deck I've ever been comfortable playing. With that said, though, I don't know that Gray Merchant is the kind of card these decks want in rare cubes. I've included it in my peasant cube, but I just don't think it has a home at this rarity.
Theros limited sees it in lists that just go durdle durdle durdle, Gray Merchant hit you for five or more. They also have the ability to use multiple copies of the guy. I think it'll be solid in peasant and pauper lists because it will hit for a few damage and clog up the ground with its 2/4 body. Rare cubes just have better options at 5cc, imo.
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Gatekeeper can be good, but Messenger is the more powerful card. If decks that can play the former on turn three or four get drafted in your cube, you should definitely give the latter a try.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=385729
Not really. I can still attack into it, especially if I have a whole team of attackers and I only need two rounds of combat to kill you. A BBBB blocker isn't worth playing. So I need to evaluate it as a threat. And a 5/5 unblockable isn't worth four colored mana symbols. And it's far from indestructible. It just has a pseudo pro:red against burn spells. And even then, I can still kill it if worse comes to worse. It would be a good creature at 1BBB, but at quad black he just doesn't hack it. The interference that it has with my lands that tap for colorless is a big drawback too.
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And to say it's just a 5/5 unblockable simply don't give the card credit enough. It's a lot more than that... Protection against wildfire/earthquakes, holds down entire armies, etc.
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While Necropotence and/or Geralf's Messenger should be enough to pull a drafter into mono/heavy black, I think it would be good to include a few more cards that reward the player for drafting this strategy. Cards that may be weaker than those two or that also fit into other deck types, but that everyone would still be happy to have in his mono/heavy black deck. If I pick one of the two power black cards early and go for this kind of deck, but end up with a bunch of cards that would have gone into any BX deck, I wonder if drafting such a restricted deck was actually worth it. I could have picked up more cards from color X to get a more balanced deck, but I didn't, just to play one specific card? One card that I may not even draw in the majority of games. Now, if I had a few more cards that work best in mono/heavy black, I would be a lot happier that I committed to that archetype.
After drafting an almost mono black deck (with 13 or 14 Swamps, depending on how I sideboarded), I have to say that Lashwrithe is just as good as Geralf's Messenger. It came down as at least a 3/3 on turn four and attacked as a 4/4 during the next turn. And it even grew bigger and bigger the longer the game went. And while the Messengers survives one creature removal, Lashwrithe kind of survives all of them. As long as the opponent doesn't have artifact removal (which is scarcer than creature removal), you will always have a 6/6 or bigger on the board. All my opponnents agreed that Lashwrithe was one of the scariest cards in my deck - and I had every card I pictured in the opening post, safe Liliana.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
You're probably right. Lashwrithe should be really strong with monoblack support. I've not looked further into supporting monoblack, however, owing to the problems in drafting mono-colour decks in 2 man Winston formats - which is our primary format, particularly recently. It's very risky, and sometimes there just aren't enough cards to even make it acheivable. As much as I love Messenger and Necro, and how strong they've been, I'll probably have to cut them in the near future because of our drafting habits
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
Theros limited sees it in lists that just go durdle durdle durdle, Gray Merchant hit you for five or more. They also have the ability to use multiple copies of the guy. I think it'll be solid in peasant and pauper lists because it will hit for a few damage and clog up the ground with its 2/4 body. Rare cubes just have better options at 5cc, imo.
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Anymore experience with Lashwrithe?
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/