Recruiter of the Guard is great with Braids. Tutor Braids and sac fodder. I love it in a deck with Braids and both Thalias. My group calls it BW Mean Girls.
New Thalia is good in the archetype too.
Token producers sort of go both ways in that they're good for stax but also heartbreakingly good against it. Still, T2 Sinkhole into T3 Hanweir Garrison into T4 Braids should be enough against all but the fastest token decks.
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I think The Abyss has gotten better over the years too, and it plays quite well in this archetype, in addition to being a sweet asymmetrical effect in the artifact.dec.
I think The Abyss has gotten better over the years too, and it plays quite well in this archetype, in addition to being a sweet asymmetrical effect in the artifact.dec.
I don't think I ever used The Abyss in a Stax shell, I always viewed it as a control / superfriends card (which doesn't need any help). I always loved The Abyss but ultimately cut it to support other things. I'm supporting the artifact dec now so it can do some work there, but not sure if I can justify The Abyss on top of Yahenni's Expertise AND Languish.
They're very different cards, FWIW. It plays more like a Stack effect than another sweeper.
Different effects, yes, but control still uses them to keep the board under control.
Now that I think about it, I did extensively test mono black Stax in Legacy about 5-8 years ago. My notes that I remember:
- Braids and Mishra's Factory were my only win conditions
- The Abyss was on par with Moat in terms of function / lockdown applications
- Mono black's downfall was not having access to Oblivion Ring to deal with Jace, TMS
That being said, cube Stax lists are a completely different animal from its Legacy / Vintage counterparts since cube builds will be more creature heavy, making The Abyss more symmetrical. I may re-test it in my next update, I do have other cuts in mind besides Yahenni's Expertise.
In black, Stax seems to lag behind both Aggro (with some nice new additions in Gutterbones and Spawn of Mayhem) and reanimator in terms of power level. Also, it seems really easy to counteract if your opponent has just one or two token generators. Combating a Shallow Grave or Sneak AttackEmrakul, the Aeons Torn or Griselbrand seems a lot harder.
Nope. Braids/Stax archetype is quite healthy for us, and is still a really strong play at the top of the curve to grind down decks that have a long-game plan. It can be used to effectively disrupt big mana plays, and there's so many ways to make the effects asymmetrical that the powerlevel is still quite high. My only complaint about Braids is that I can only have 1 for my cube.
I think it depends on your black section.
We use it here with Recurring Nightmare synergies and token production to control the board in a similar fashion to The Abyss. The abundance of recursive black 1 drops has made this card more consistent, and a cute interaction is repeatedly bringing it back with Alesha.
I wish I could have a real stax archetype in my cube, but there just aren't enough redundencies at my size. If you happen to get Braids or World Queller, you can build the deck, and it does work, but you have to get one of the engine cards. Culling Scales and Porphyry Nodes are also stax type cards I play, and the subtheme also feeds into the Pestilence subtheme. It works, but it's not something you can rely on getting.
Agree with those saying it's still good. I've seen a lot of decks that really struggle against a resolved Braids/Stack. They both complement aggro decks nicely, but also create their own archetype.
I've gone back and forth on my opinion of smokestack/braids for a couple years now..
I'm certain they aren't close to as good as they used to be and I'm certain there are decks they are very good in.
More cards have been printed that are good with stacks, but indirectly, that means more and more cards have been printed that are good against stax.
The majority of decks either have ways to generate multiple permanents OR are executing a gameplan too fast for smokestack to interact with.
Because of this, smokestack is much worse in slower decks with an attrition element than they used to be... Fairer decks with a disruption element, ie based around creatures like kitchen finks, lingering souls etc. In those decks, smokestack is too slow (though still a great sideboard card against control).
However, there are still some decks that can accelerate out their hand ultra fast, even relative to the format. In those decks they are still good. In fact, in the "nut" smokestack deck, I believe the card is still excellent.
The best stax decks have a controlling element, so can scale back their opponents permanants while quickly developing their own. Cards like swords to plowshares, ancient grudge, fiery confluence, wrath of god, wildfire etc are very good at that.
My biggest gripe with the card is many new players in my cube try to build around it (from it's past reputation), and quickly 0-3... I'm always tempted to take it out just to reduce the trap element of it heh.
I like Stax effects a lot and I'm not cutting it from my cube anytime soon but I think one of the problems with supporting this archetype is that the cards that go well in this are also cards that are strong against the archetype. For example, sometimes, I would resolve a Smokestacks while ahead on board thinking I could attrition out the game only to watch my opponent resolve a moderately sized Secure the Waste or Tempt with Vengeance and suddenly the Stax effect isn't working as intended.
I think cube just has a lot of incidentally good cards now that break symmetry in both directions making Stax a pretty inconsistent deck and effect from my experiences.
I like Stax effects a lot and I'm not cutting it from my cube anytime soon but I think one of the problems with supporting this archetype is that the cards that go well in this are also cards that are strong against the archetype. For example, sometimes, I would resolve a Smokestacks while ahead on board thinking I could attrition out the game only to watch my opponent resolve a moderately sized Secure the Waste or Tempt with Vengeance and suddenly the Stax effect isn't working as intended.
I think cube just has a lot of incidentally good cards now that break symmetry in both directions making Stax a pretty inconsistent deck and effect from my experiences.
This is on point.
Biogenic Ooze is a recent card I have been pretty pumped about for Cube. Much like Deranged Hermit before it, the card is solid at generating fodder for trying to break the symmetry of Stax effects. Coincidentally, as cards like this increase in density for Cube, he power of Stax wanes. Stax can still be a very powerful archetype in Cube, but as the format continues to grow, designers have to be mindful of how they flesh out other archetypes that would utilize the same kind of cards that a Stax deck is looking to utilize.
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The timing of this thread being necro'd could not be better. I was just contemplating whether Smokestack still merits a spot and I think my answer is no for some of the reasons articulated above. I cut Braids years ago and I don't think I lost much. I like a lock-down strategy as much as anyone...I love Winter Orb and to a lesser extent Opposition, but I think these are usually less narrow and more interesting.
I too have been questioning Smokestack at 540. I love Braids so much but Stack never does it for me. One of our players has recently been experimenting with Stack but it may ultimately get cut. I really don't want to cut it but I bet it happens in the next year or two. Hopefully it turns around & we keep it.
I just cut smokestack because it's always just a little too slow to matter, but Braids is still a great black aggro and midrange card. The fact that you get an immediate trigger and it's a super high priority kill is just great.
We had a mono black stax deck win our 8 man tonight. Credit probably most due to 1 to 2 turn of aggro creatures backed by sinkhole and liliana. But smokestack still performs and its a good tool for a competitive deck. Not going anywhere anytime soon. Which is funny because I had braids and stack out for about a year before gravecrawler was printed thinking it was a weak and wasted archtype, but it has been one of our groups favorite decks for a while now.
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New Thalia is good in the archetype too.
Token producers sort of go both ways in that they're good for stax but also heartbreakingly good against it. Still, T2 Sinkhole into T3 Hanweir Garrison into T4 Braids should be enough against all but the fastest token decks.
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I don't think I ever used The Abyss in a Stax shell, I always viewed it as a control / superfriends card (which doesn't need any help). I always loved The Abyss but ultimately cut it to support other things. I'm supporting the artifact dec now so it can do some work there, but not sure if I can justify The Abyss on top of Yahenni's Expertise AND Languish.
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Different effects, yes, but control still uses them to keep the board under control.
Now that I think about it, I did extensively test mono black Stax in Legacy about 5-8 years ago. My notes that I remember:
- Braids and Mishra's Factory were my only win conditions
- The Abyss was on par with Moat in terms of function / lockdown applications
- Mono black's downfall was not having access to Oblivion Ring to deal with Jace, TMS
That being said, cube Stax lists are a completely different animal from its Legacy / Vintage counterparts since cube builds will be more creature heavy, making The Abyss more symmetrical. I may re-test it in my next update, I do have other cuts in mind besides Yahenni's Expertise.
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I mean if you look at what other colors can cast for four mana:
White: Armageddon or Palace Jailer
Blue: Glen Elendra Archmage or Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Red: Sneak Attack or Flametongue Kavu
Green: Garruk Wildspeaker and Oracle of Mul Daya
In black, Stax seems to lag behind both Aggro (with some nice new additions in Gutterbones and Spawn of Mayhem) and reanimator in terms of power level. Also, it seems really easy to counteract if your opponent has just one or two token generators. Combating a Shallow Grave or Sneak Attack Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or Griselbrand seems a lot harder.
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We use it here with Recurring Nightmare synergies and token production to control the board in a similar fashion to The Abyss. The abundance of recursive black 1 drops has made this card more consistent, and a cute interaction is repeatedly bringing it back with Alesha.
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I'm certain they aren't close to as good as they used to be and I'm certain there are decks they are very good in.
More cards have been printed that are good with stacks, but indirectly, that means more and more cards have been printed that are good against stax.
The majority of decks either have ways to generate multiple permanents OR are executing a gameplan too fast for smokestack to interact with.
Because of this, smokestack is much worse in slower decks with an attrition element than they used to be... Fairer decks with a disruption element, ie based around creatures like kitchen finks, lingering souls etc. In those decks, smokestack is too slow (though still a great sideboard card against control).
However, there are still some decks that can accelerate out their hand ultra fast, even relative to the format. In those decks they are still good. In fact, in the "nut" smokestack deck, I believe the card is still excellent.
The best stax decks have a controlling element, so can scale back their opponents permanants while quickly developing their own. Cards like swords to plowshares, ancient grudge, fiery confluence, wrath of god, wildfire etc are very good at that.
My biggest gripe with the card is many new players in my cube try to build around it (from it's past reputation), and quickly 0-3... I'm always tempted to take it out just to reduce the trap element of it heh.
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I think cube just has a lot of incidentally good cards now that break symmetry in both directions making Stax a pretty inconsistent deck and effect from my experiences.
This is on point.
Biogenic Ooze is a recent card I have been pretty pumped about for Cube. Much like Deranged Hermit before it, the card is solid at generating fodder for trying to break the symmetry of Stax effects. Coincidentally, as cards like this increase in density for Cube, he power of Stax wanes. Stax can still be a very powerful archetype in Cube, but as the format continues to grow, designers have to be mindful of how they flesh out other archetypes that would utilize the same kind of cards that a Stax deck is looking to utilize.
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