Recruiter of the Guard is great with Braids. Tutor Braids and sac fodder. I love it in a deck with Braids and both Thalias. My group calls it BW Mean Girls.
New Thalia is good in the archetype too.
Token producers sort of go both ways in that they're good for stax but also heartbreakingly good against it. Still, T2 Sinkhole into T3 Hanweir Garrison into T4 Braids should be enough against all but the fastest token decks.
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I think The Abyss has gotten better over the years too, and it plays quite well in this archetype, in addition to being a sweet asymmetrical effect in the artifact.dec.
I think The Abyss has gotten better over the years too, and it plays quite well in this archetype, in addition to being a sweet asymmetrical effect in the artifact.dec.
I don't think I ever used The Abyss in a Stax shell, I always viewed it as a control / superfriends card (which doesn't need any help). I always loved The Abyss but ultimately cut it to support other things. I'm supporting the artifact dec now so it can do some work there, but not sure if I can justify The Abyss on top of Yahenni's Expertise AND Languish.
They're very different cards, FWIW. It plays more like a Stack effect than another sweeper.
Different effects, yes, but control still uses them to keep the board under control.
Now that I think about it, I did extensively test mono black Stax in Legacy about 5-8 years ago. My notes that I remember:
- Braids and Mishra's Factory were my only win conditions
- The Abyss was on par with Moat in terms of function / lockdown applications
- Mono black's downfall was not having access to Oblivion Ring to deal with Jace, TMS
That being said, cube Stax lists are a completely different animal from its Legacy / Vintage counterparts since cube builds will be more creature heavy, making The Abyss more symmetrical. I may re-test it in my next update, I do have other cuts in mind besides Yahenni's Expertise.
In black, Stax seems to lag behind both Aggro (with some nice new additions in Gutterbones and Spawn of Mayhem) and reanimator in terms of power level. Also, it seems really easy to counteract if your opponent has just one or two token generators. Combating a Shallow Grave or Sneak AttackEmrakul, the Aeons Torn or Griselbrand seems a lot harder.
Nope. Braids/Stax archetype is quite healthy for us, and is still a really strong play at the top of the curve to grind down decks that have a long-game plan. It can be used to effectively disrupt big mana plays, and there's so many ways to make the effects asymmetrical that the powerlevel is still quite high. My only complaint about Braids is that I can only have 1 for my cube.
I think it depends on your black section.
We use it here with Recurring Nightmare synergies and token production to control the board in a similar fashion to The Abyss. The abundance of recursive black 1 drops has made this card more consistent, and a cute interaction is repeatedly bringing it back with Alesha.
I wish I could have a real stax archetype in my cube, but there just aren't enough redundencies at my size. If you happen to get Braids or World Queller, you can build the deck, and it does work, but you have to get one of the engine cards. Culling Scales and Porphyry Nodes are also stax type cards I play, and the subtheme also feeds into the Pestilence subtheme. It works, but it's not something you can rely on getting.
Agree with those saying it's still good. I've seen a lot of decks that really struggle against a resolved Braids/Stack. They both complement aggro decks nicely, but also create their own archetype.
I've gone back and forth on my opinion of smokestack/braids for a couple years now..
I'm certain they aren't close to as good as they used to be and I'm certain there are decks they are very good in.
More cards have been printed that are good with stacks, but indirectly, that means more and more cards have been printed that are good against stax.
The majority of decks either have ways to generate multiple permanents OR are executing a gameplan too fast for smokestack to interact with.
Because of this, smokestack is much worse in slower decks with an attrition element than they used to be... Fairer decks with a disruption element, ie based around creatures like kitchen finks, lingering souls etc. In those decks, smokestack is too slow (though still a great sideboard card against control).
However, there are still some decks that can accelerate out their hand ultra fast, even relative to the format. In those decks they are still good. In fact, in the "nut" smokestack deck, I believe the card is still excellent.
The best stax decks have a controlling element, so can scale back their opponents permanants while quickly developing their own. Cards like swords to plowshares, ancient grudge, fiery confluence, wrath of god, wildfire etc are very good at that.
My biggest gripe with the card is many new players in my cube try to build around it (from it's past reputation), and quickly 0-3... I'm always tempted to take it out just to reduce the trap element of it heh.
I like Stax effects a lot and I'm not cutting it from my cube anytime soon but I think one of the problems with supporting this archetype is that the cards that go well in this are also cards that are strong against the archetype. For example, sometimes, I would resolve a Smokestacks while ahead on board thinking I could attrition out the game only to watch my opponent resolve a moderately sized Secure the Waste or Tempt with Vengeance and suddenly the Stax effect isn't working as intended.
I think cube just has a lot of incidentally good cards now that break symmetry in both directions making Stax a pretty inconsistent deck and effect from my experiences.
I like Stax effects a lot and I'm not cutting it from my cube anytime soon but I think one of the problems with supporting this archetype is that the cards that go well in this are also cards that are strong against the archetype. For example, sometimes, I would resolve a Smokestacks while ahead on board thinking I could attrition out the game only to watch my opponent resolve a moderately sized Secure the Waste or Tempt with Vengeance and suddenly the Stax effect isn't working as intended.
I think cube just has a lot of incidentally good cards now that break symmetry in both directions making Stax a pretty inconsistent deck and effect from my experiences.
This is on point.
Biogenic Ooze is a recent card I have been pretty pumped about for Cube. Much like Deranged Hermit before it, the card is solid at generating fodder for trying to break the symmetry of Stax effects. Coincidentally, as cards like this increase in density for Cube, he power of Stax wanes. Stax can still be a very powerful archetype in Cube, but as the format continues to grow, designers have to be mindful of how they flesh out other archetypes that would utilize the same kind of cards that a Stax deck is looking to utilize.
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The timing of this thread being necro'd could not be better. I was just contemplating whether Smokestack still merits a spot and I think my answer is no for some of the reasons articulated above. I cut Braids years ago and I don't think I lost much. I like a lock-down strategy as much as anyone...I love Winter Orb and to a lesser extent Opposition, but I think these are usually less narrow and more interesting.
I too have been questioning Smokestack at 540. I love Braids so much but Stack never does it for me. One of our players has recently been experimenting with Stack but it may ultimately get cut. I really don't want to cut it but I bet it happens in the next year or two. Hopefully it turns around & we keep it.
I just cut smokestack because it's always just a little too slow to matter, but Braids is still a great black aggro and midrange card. The fact that you get an immediate trigger and it's a super high priority kill is just great.
We had a mono black stax deck win our 8 man tonight. Credit probably most due to 1 to 2 turn of aggro creatures backed by sinkhole and liliana. But smokestack still performs and its a good tool for a competitive deck. Not going anywhere anytime soon. Which is funny because I had braids and stack out for about a year before gravecrawler was printed thinking it was a weak and wasted archtype, but it has been one of our groups favorite decks for a while now.
I was having some fun with the Wayback Machine, looking at my cube on CubeTutor (RIP) from 2018. One of the things I noticed is that all my black and green 4-cmc creatures have changed since then. Currently the oldest cards in either of those sections are from ELD in 2019 (Rankle and Questing Beast).
Looking at black specifically, it's nice to see we've come a long way from just playing every Ravenous Chupacabra variant that we can. Black especially has a lot of variety in options now, with most things being pretty unique instead of everything just being a spin on Ravenous Chupacabra / Flametongue Kavu / Hellrider / etc.
Does anyone else think Braids and Smokestack are just a bit durdly nowadays?
Circling back to this comment 5 years later, 2019 was probably around the time I cut Braids / Smokestack from my cube. They were feeling their age even before the power creep went to 11 in 2019 with WAR / MH1 / ELD. I probably held on to them longer than I should have because I was a die hard rogue Legacy Stax player for the better half of a decade. The speed of games do not work out in Braids / Smokestack's favor. Their matchup spread has gotten much worse as decks have to play more to the board now. Threats getting much more efficient means it's much harder for Braids / Smokestack to shut an opponent out. Smokestack can be a huge liability since it has no immediate board presence and most 3-4 cmc creatures can just kill you in record time. Comparing Braids to every other contemporary black 4-cmc creatures...
- Initiative enablers like Ravenloft Adventurer / Passageway Seer are better win conditions and can cheese your opponent much easier / more consistently than Braids can.
- Sheoldred, the Apocalypse is more than 2x the size of Braids, has deathtouch, and has much more combo potential.
While you can can still cheese an opponent with an early Braids / Smokestack, I feel like this is more of the exception in scenarios where you have an extremely good hand against an opponent having a poor hand. Even then, any initiative enabler will probably be just as good if not better in those exact same scenarios. At this point Braids is pretty much completely outclassed / obsolete in comparison to any initiative enabler, not to mention Sheoldred / Rankle. The only reason I'd consider justifying Smokestack today would be for critical mass for Mishra's Workshop, but even that's a stretch for me given today's options.
While you can can still cheese an opponent with an early Braids / Smokestack, I feel like this is more of the exception in scenarios where you have an extremely good hand against an opponent having a poor hand. Even then, any initiative enabler will probably be just as good if not better in those exact same scenarios. At this point Braids is pretty much completely outclassed / obsolete in comparison to any initiative enabler, not to mention Sheoldred / Rankle. The only reason I'd consider justifying Smokestack today would be for critical mass for Mishra's Workshop, but even that's a stretch for me given today's options.
I can see what you're saying about SmokeStack but definitely not Braids. I had several games where I was able to get her out on turn 3 from an aggro/ creature toolbox deck where she was essentially a recurring Avalanche Riders.
I've found Braids is often the best tool a creature toolbox deck tool has against slower control/ combo strategies. I couldn't touch this until I see a better 4 CMC option.
I've found Braids is often the best tool a creature toolbox deck tool has against slower control/ combo strategies.
That's basically the only good matchup for Braids, and initiative can already do the same thing. I've found slower decks in general are on the back foot anyways and I really shouldn't go out of my way to punish them. That's part of the reason why I don't play things like Thrun, the Last Troll / Carnage Tyrant anymore. Braids has basically been reduced to a "gotcha" card, but again it's much harder to lock opponents down when 2-3 cmc creatures are so efficient now and flood the board with creature / artifact tokens.
That's basically the only good matchup for Braids, and initiative can already do the same thing. I've found slower decks in general are on the back foot anyways and I really shouldn't go out of my way to punish them. That's part of the reason why I don't play things like Thrun, the Last Troll / Carnage Tyrant anymore. Braids has basically been reduced to a "gotcha" card, but again it's much harder to lock opponents down when 2-3 cmc creatures are so efficient now and flood the board with creature / artifact tokens.
I've found there are several cases where if I don't get a stax effect ASAP, i lose on the following turn.
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New Thalia is good in the archetype too.
Token producers sort of go both ways in that they're good for stax but also heartbreakingly good against it. Still, T2 Sinkhole into T3 Hanweir Garrison into T4 Braids should be enough against all but the fastest token decks.
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I don't think I ever used The Abyss in a Stax shell, I always viewed it as a control / superfriends card (which doesn't need any help). I always loved The Abyss but ultimately cut it to support other things. I'm supporting the artifact dec now so it can do some work there, but not sure if I can justify The Abyss on top of Yahenni's Expertise AND Languish.
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Different effects, yes, but control still uses them to keep the board under control.
Now that I think about it, I did extensively test mono black Stax in Legacy about 5-8 years ago. My notes that I remember:
- Braids and Mishra's Factory were my only win conditions
- The Abyss was on par with Moat in terms of function / lockdown applications
- Mono black's downfall was not having access to Oblivion Ring to deal with Jace, TMS
That being said, cube Stax lists are a completely different animal from its Legacy / Vintage counterparts since cube builds will be more creature heavy, making The Abyss more symmetrical. I may re-test it in my next update, I do have other cuts in mind besides Yahenni's Expertise.
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I mean if you look at what other colors can cast for four mana:
White: Armageddon or Palace Jailer
Blue: Glen Elendra Archmage or Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Red: Sneak Attack or Flametongue Kavu
Green: Garruk Wildspeaker and Oracle of Mul Daya
In black, Stax seems to lag behind both Aggro (with some nice new additions in Gutterbones and Spawn of Mayhem) and reanimator in terms of power level. Also, it seems really easy to counteract if your opponent has just one or two token generators. Combating a Shallow Grave or Sneak Attack Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or Griselbrand seems a lot harder.
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We use it here with Recurring Nightmare synergies and token production to control the board in a similar fashion to The Abyss. The abundance of recursive black 1 drops has made this card more consistent, and a cute interaction is repeatedly bringing it back with Alesha.
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I'm certain they aren't close to as good as they used to be and I'm certain there are decks they are very good in.
More cards have been printed that are good with stacks, but indirectly, that means more and more cards have been printed that are good against stax.
The majority of decks either have ways to generate multiple permanents OR are executing a gameplan too fast for smokestack to interact with.
Because of this, smokestack is much worse in slower decks with an attrition element than they used to be... Fairer decks with a disruption element, ie based around creatures like kitchen finks, lingering souls etc. In those decks, smokestack is too slow (though still a great sideboard card against control).
However, there are still some decks that can accelerate out their hand ultra fast, even relative to the format. In those decks they are still good. In fact, in the "nut" smokestack deck, I believe the card is still excellent.
The best stax decks have a controlling element, so can scale back their opponents permanants while quickly developing their own. Cards like swords to plowshares, ancient grudge, fiery confluence, wrath of god, wildfire etc are very good at that.
My biggest gripe with the card is many new players in my cube try to build around it (from it's past reputation), and quickly 0-3... I'm always tempted to take it out just to reduce the trap element of it heh.
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I think cube just has a lot of incidentally good cards now that break symmetry in both directions making Stax a pretty inconsistent deck and effect from my experiences.
This is on point.
Biogenic Ooze is a recent card I have been pretty pumped about for Cube. Much like Deranged Hermit before it, the card is solid at generating fodder for trying to break the symmetry of Stax effects. Coincidentally, as cards like this increase in density for Cube, he power of Stax wanes. Stax can still be a very powerful archetype in Cube, but as the format continues to grow, designers have to be mindful of how they flesh out other archetypes that would utilize the same kind of cards that a Stax deck is looking to utilize.
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Looking at black specifically, it's nice to see we've come a long way from just playing every Ravenous Chupacabra variant that we can. Black especially has a lot of variety in options now, with most things being pretty unique instead of everything just being a spin on Ravenous Chupacabra / Flametongue Kavu / Hellrider / etc.
Circling back to this comment 5 years later, 2019 was probably around the time I cut Braids / Smokestack from my cube. They were feeling their age even before the power creep went to 11 in 2019 with WAR / MH1 / ELD. I probably held on to them longer than I should have because I was a die hard rogue Legacy Stax player for the better half of a decade. The speed of games do not work out in Braids / Smokestack's favor. Their matchup spread has gotten much worse as decks have to play more to the board now. Threats getting much more efficient means it's much harder for Braids / Smokestack to shut an opponent out. Smokestack can be a huge liability since it has no immediate board presence and most 3-4 cmc creatures can just kill you in record time. Comparing Braids to every other contemporary black 4-cmc creatures...
- Initiative enablers like Ravenloft Adventurer / Passageway Seer are better win conditions and can cheese your opponent much easier / more consistently than Braids can.
- Sheoldred, the Apocalypse is more than 2x the size of Braids, has deathtouch, and has much more combo potential.
- Rankle, Master of Pranks has a strictly better body and more immediate impact.
- Grief has the flexibility of evoke.
While you can can still cheese an opponent with an early Braids / Smokestack, I feel like this is more of the exception in scenarios where you have an extremely good hand against an opponent having a poor hand. Even then, any initiative enabler will probably be just as good if not better in those exact same scenarios. At this point Braids is pretty much completely outclassed / obsolete in comparison to any initiative enabler, not to mention Sheoldred / Rankle. The only reason I'd consider justifying Smokestack today would be for critical mass for Mishra's Workshop, but even that's a stretch for me given today's options.
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I can see what you're saying about SmokeStack but definitely not Braids. I had several games where I was able to get her out on turn 3 from an aggro/ creature toolbox deck where she was essentially a recurring Avalanche Riders.
I've found Braids is often the best tool a creature toolbox deck tool has against slower control/ combo strategies. I couldn't touch this until I see a better 4 CMC option.
That's basically the only good matchup for Braids, and initiative can already do the same thing. I've found slower decks in general are on the back foot anyways and I really shouldn't go out of my way to punish them. That's part of the reason why I don't play things like Thrun, the Last Troll / Carnage Tyrant anymore. Braids has basically been reduced to a "gotcha" card, but again it's much harder to lock opponents down when 2-3 cmc creatures are so efficient now and flood the board with creature / artifact tokens.
I can make an argument for playing nearly ten 4-cmc black creatures before I'd add Braids again.
- Gonti, Lord of Luxury
- Grief
- Hostile Investigator
- Passageway Seer
- Rankle, Master of Pranks
- Ravenloft Adventurer
- Ravenous Chupacabra
- Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
- Skinrender
- Vicious Battlerager
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I've found there are several cases where if I don't get a stax effect ASAP, i lose on the following turn.