I really don't want to run creatures with a double digit mana cost that I cannot even reanimate.
Pretty much this. I want all my cheat-into-play creatures to have as many modes as possible for getting cheated into play. Reanimation is probably the primary way, so I don't want to include Eldrazi.
Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Eureka, Reanimation, Channel, etc. All viable ways to cheat big stuff into play, but Eldrazi don't work with reanimation so they're going to only be for fringe-ish archetypes.
I have both Ulamog and Kozilek in my cube and they are fine. Players love living the dream doin channel into an eldrazi turn 2. Usually they get dreamcrushed, but those rare times it happens are enough to warrant 2 slots of 450. There are also so many solutions to them if they get them out.
I think they're a big part of the "Tier 3" Ramp package. Helping cards like Channel, Eureka, Show and Tell, Gilded Lotus, Thran Dynamo and others have targets that they're needed to help reach. I don't run that package, so I don't need Eldrazi. My cube doesn't really support the archetype that wants these kinds of dudes. If it costs more than 6 mana, I better be able to Reanimate it and/or Tinker/Natural Order it into play.
If it costs more than 6 mana, I better be able to Reanimate it and/or Tinker/Natural Order it into play.
I'm really close to agreeing with this but then there is Karn. I think the top end of hardcastable only cards is around 7 or more. Their effects have to be gamebreaking to nearly every archetype (that of which Karn is).
To me, adding the Eldrazi is not much different than adding Time Vault. They are combo creatures, and without the ability to be reanimated, the combos available are way too limited for my taste.
I view their lack of reanimation as a bonus, not a drawback. It's a boon for control decks aiming for the long game. When I ran some of the big three, I did silly things by combining them with Waterfront Bouncer, Enclave Cryptologist and Fact or Fiction.
Out of the big three, I would consider Ulamog for my cube as it has immediate board impact compared to Kozilek. I consider Emrakul to be uncastable.
I view their lack of reanimation as a bonus, not a drawback. It's a boon for control decks aiming for the long game.
My problem with this is there are plenty of creatures that are good for control decks aiming for the long game AND reanimator decks, or tinker decks, or natural order decks, or sneak attack decks, or ramp decks. By including fatties that multiple decks want, they actively get drafted, you can't count on them tabling, and you don't see them going pick 14 and 15 all the time. That's why I've focused so much on the fatties I use being good in multiple archetypes, which the Eldrazi aren't.
I've had Kozilek in for a few years now and Ulamog was added like 6 months ago, and they are heavily played despite a lot of the skepticism seen here. Contrary to popular belief, ramp decks really can get to that mana in a reasonable time frame while being able to put up the defenses against an aggressive assault. I'm not saying that every cube should have them, but they are much better than most people think. In one of our drafts one of our players had a nice nut draw with turn 2 Rofellos, turn 3 Primeval Titan, turn 4 Ulamog. I routinely use Kozilek as the top end of my ramp decks and he is beyond awesome (seriously one of the most satisfying cards in magic to cast). Artisan of Kozilek just never felt quite worth it to me even though it could be reanimated into play unlike the others. It was just so much worse most of the time so eventually I cut it.
My problem with this is there are plenty of creatures that are good for control decks aiming for the long game AND reanimator decks, or tinker decks, or natural order decks, or sneak attack decks, or ramp decks. By including fatties that multiple decks want, they actively get drafted, you can't count on them tabling, and you don't see them going pick 14 and 15 all the time. That's why I've focused so much on the fatties I use being good in multiple archetypes, which the Eldrazi aren't.
I agree with Kenny. The other thing I really like about the Eldrazi (Kozilek/Ulamog) is that they are good in survival decks not only because they provide a strong finisher, but also because they let you survival for any creature in your graveyard.
Yeah I recently had the Eldrazi/Survival thing for the first time and it was really unique and powerful effect. For people who really value unique and interesting effects, I think running at least one of these guys is very worth.
I'm in the midst of polishing my 450 cube, and I'm wondering if i'd rather run fewer than 3 of these. Some lists run all three, some lists run none.
What are people's experiences with these guys? How much support do you need to justify running or cutting one or more? Is there a fun-factor involved? Which would you rather cut?
For the record, I'm currently running Sneak Attack, Show and Tell and some heavy green and brown ramp.
They left out the part where Yawgmoth is resurrected,but has been cleansed as Yawgmoth the Redeemed,and now must awaken Chromium so that Karn can fuse with him and create what can only be known as : the ultimate taco.
At 450, with the super-ramp package and fatty-cheating effects, I'd run the 2 cheaper ones. The 3rd one isn't really necessary until the cube is bigger and you're still supporting those archetypes.
At 450, with the super-ramp package and fatty-cheating effects, I'd run the 2 cheaper ones. The 3rd one isn't really necessary until the cube is bigger and you're still supporting those archetypes.
I haven't done a lot of testing, but this was my initial thoughts as well. I also run Sundering Titan and Battlesphere as big colorless bombs, but those are actually castable by other decks than the green one.
They left out the part where Yawgmoth is resurrected,but has been cleansed as Yawgmoth the Redeemed,and now must awaken Chromium so that Karn can fuse with him and create what can only be known as : the ultimate taco.
Disappointing. They create a polarizing game-state and aren't very interactive for your opponent. Kozilek is arguably "fair" however, an un-counterable opportunity that also forces a response from an opponent, potentially several times in a matchup, was enough for me to warrant its removal from my cube.
How much support do you need to justify running or cutting one or more? For the record, I'm currently running Sneak Attack, Show and Tell and some heavy green and brown ramp.
Emrakul would be my first to go. Without anything to cheat it into play, it's one hell of a casting cost to afford. The other two, if cut, should really either both be cut or both be included since they're about the same power level.
They haven't been any more feel-bad or uninteractive than any other powerful cards in the cube are. We have a fun time using them, and nobody whines and cries when they resolve.
On the topic of channel, how do you guys feel about putting it in an unpowered cube? I have banned a few cards for power level (Mana Drain, Library, Sol Ring, Mind Twist), and want to put in channel (and tinker), but I'm afraid they might be too strong/unfun for the environment. I'm playing ~7 colorless channel targets and ~5 tinker targets (450).
I'm thinking they'll probably be fine, even if they're on the strong side, but I don't have a lot of experience with playtesting yet.
They left out the part where Yawgmoth is resurrected,but has been cleansed as Yawgmoth the Redeemed,and now must awaken Chromium so that Karn can fuse with him and create what can only be known as : the ultimate taco.
It fits into green ramp and reanimator nicely. If you're playing karmic guide, this is a nice fit also.
I'm curious to hear from other people who have run this card happily or otherwise.
this should also be my 100th post!
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Pretty much this. I want all my cheat-into-play creatures to have as many modes as possible for getting cheated into play. Reanimation is probably the primary way, so I don't want to include Eldrazi.
Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Eureka, Reanimation, Channel, etc. All viable ways to cheat big stuff into play, but Eldrazi don't work with reanimation so they're going to only be for fringe-ish archetypes.
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I'm really close to agreeing with this but then there is Karn. I think the top end of hardcastable only cards is around 7 or more. Their effects have to be gamebreaking to nearly every archetype (that of which Karn is).
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Out of the big three, I would consider Ulamog for my cube as it has immediate board impact compared to Kozilek. I consider Emrakul to be uncastable.
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My problem with this is there are plenty of creatures that are good for control decks aiming for the long game AND reanimator decks, or tinker decks, or natural order decks, or sneak attack decks, or ramp decks. By including fatties that multiple decks want, they actively get drafted, you can't count on them tabling, and you don't see them going pick 14 and 15 all the time. That's why I've focused so much on the fatties I use being good in multiple archetypes, which the Eldrazi aren't.
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This would be why I eventually took them out
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I'm in the midst of polishing my 450 cube, and I'm wondering if i'd rather run fewer than 3 of these. Some lists run all three, some lists run none.
What are people's experiences with these guys? How much support do you need to justify running or cutting one or more? Is there a fun-factor involved? Which would you rather cut?
For the record, I'm currently running Sneak Attack, Show and Tell and some heavy green and brown ramp.
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I haven't done a lot of testing, but this was my initial thoughts as well. I also run Sundering Titan and Battlesphere as big colorless bombs, but those are actually castable by other decks than the green one.
Disappointing. They create a polarizing game-state and aren't very interactive for your opponent. Kozilek is arguably "fair" however, an un-counterable opportunity that also forces a response from an opponent, potentially several times in a matchup, was enough for me to warrant its removal from my cube.
Sneak & Show and green ramp are good starting points. Eureka, Through the Breach, Corpse Dance, Makeshift Mannequin, Apprentice Necromancer and Doomed Necromancer allow for additional interaction with them that also abuse their shuffle effect.
Absolutely - and most of the time the fun is one-sided. Annihilator alone is stomach churning to face down.
Emrakul would be my first to go. Without anything to cheat it into play, it's one hell of a casting cost to afford. The other two, if cut, should really either both be cut or both be included since they're about the same power level.
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I'm thinking they'll probably be fine, even if they're on the strong side, but I don't have a lot of experience with playtesting yet.