The only card that even comes close to Fanatic IMO is Frostling. And he doesn't make it in because losing the ability to go to the dome is pretty big.
I'll be honest: I had no idea Frostling existed. And he kinda proves my point. IMO, the ability to go to the dome for 1 point is almost irrelevant. Yea, sure, sometimes it happens, but it's pretty rare that mogg fanatic deals the finishing blow.
And nobody is cubing with Frostling either, even though he fits all of wtwlf's requirements. You'd think if Mogg Fanatic is that good, and Frostling is that close to mogg fanatic, and if red is that desperate for 1 drops, that we'd be playing both, the same way we play Carnophage still even though we have Diregraf Ghoul. And yet, nobody does.
That's because Frostling is evaluated independently as to whether it's good enough, not based on old experience with a card, when it used to be good enough.
Well, Mogg isn't brilliant. But none of my red one drop are, except goblin guide.
Goblin Patrol ? Out of tempo.
Stromkirk Noble ? Awfull if not early played.
Lavamancer and Spikeshot ? The first one need to be fuelled, the second usually does what Mogg do for 1RR. Sometimes better.
Jackal Pup. People like him, but everytime I play it it inflicts more damage to myself than my opponent.
What keep Mogg Fanatic in cube lists ? The need of having red early drop and the lack of undiscutable others early drops.
The day they print Isamaru/Savannah Lion in red, okay, i'll cut him. Even then, i'll cut goblin patrol first. And maybe Noble before mogg. And after those, okay.
edit: I don't mention Welder, Gargadon or Gorilla Shaman because they are all on my cube for non-aggro purpose.
The ability to go to the dome for 1 is very relevant. It's not about the finishing blow.
Sometimes Mogg Fanatic needs to chump, and none of your opponent's creatures are one toughness away from dying. The 1 point there is another attack out of him.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Mogg Fanatic and Frostling can't target itself with its own ability, so if you have other X/1s and want to block with Fanatic and sacrifice it to prevent an opponent's Wurmcoil Engine from gaining life, you'd have to kill one of your other guys.
I'll admit it's a corner case, but it can make the difference in a game, and that extra point of damage can be very relevant.
I'll go on board saying Fanatic is one of red's worst one drops, but there aren't a plethora of them. For me, I don't play Frostling because it's honestly significantly worse than Fanatic. But if I needed another one drop, I'd consider him.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Mogg Fanatic and Frostling can't target itself with its own ability, so if you have other X/1s and want to block with Fanatic and sacrifice it to prevent an opponent's Wurmcoil Engine from gaining life, you'd have to kill one of your other guys.
Why wouldn't you just deal the damage to your opponent's wurmcoil?
And nobody is cubing with Frostling either, even though he fits all of wtwlf's requirements.
It can't hit players or planeswalkers, so it doesn't do everything I use Fanatic for. So it doesn't meet all of my requirements.
My requirement to remove Mogg Fanatic: Print something strictly better than Mogg Fanatic. Boom. There. Until I get one, I'm going to cube the Mogg, because it does stuff that no other card like it can do, and I think all the flexibility and versatility of the card is important.
You can compare any two cards to one another. I can compare Goblin Guide to Grave Titan, but that doesn't get us anywhere. So if someone asks do you think Arsonist and Fanatic are comparable power-level wise, my answer is no. I don't think they are.
No worries, that was a joke, I thought it was pretty funny that you said the two cards were "uncomparable" and proceeded to compare them in the exact same post.
My requirement to remove Mogg Fanatic: Print something strictly better than Mogg Fanatic. Boom. There. Until I get one, I'm going to cube the Mogg, because it does stuff that no other card like it can do, and I think all the flexibility and versatility of the card is important.
Quoted for posterity, for when they print 10 new red 2/2s for 1.
why wouldn't you play it early? the entire point of cubing with noble is to have a critical mass of similar cards so you can build decks that guarantee a turn one play like this. it's not in the cube to be played on turn 4, and being bad on turn 4 has almost nothing to do with the value of the card.
Jackal Pup. People like him, but everytime I play it it inflicts more damage to myself than my opponent.
how could that be possible? you control when it attacks or blocks, are you just not packing enough removal? are you not building decks where it comes out turn 1?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Jackal Pup could eat burn or something in which case his statement would be true, but yeah, I don't see that in our cubing experience. Jackal Pup almost always inflicts more damage to an opponent than it does to me.
But even if it regularly dealt more damage to me than them, it doesn't matter if it deals a good amount of damage to the opponent.
I'd cube something like this in a heartbeat:
Backlash Bolt R
Backlash Bolt deals 9 damage to target creature or opponent.
Backlash Bolt deals 10 damage to you.
Draw a card.
Even if it deals you more damage than the opponent, if it deals a ton of damage it's usually valuable in red. That card would be nuts obviously and isn't printable, but it's a bit of hyperbole to prove a point.
It can't hit players or planeswalkers, so it doesn't do everything I use Fanatic for. So it doesn't meet all of my requirements.
Your requirements keep changing. I asked specifically what you wanted this slot to do, and you said "A card that's a creature that can kill creatures on T1"
The problem with this argument is that you keep shifting the goal so that only Mogg Fanatic can fit this spot. From my vantage point, it seems like you've decided Mogg Fanatic is good enough, and you just continue to make justifications as to why he is good enough without stepping back to look critically at the whole situation. And as long as you've decided that slot can only be filled by Mogg Fanatic, nothing will ever convince you otherwise.
One of my favorite parts about this forum is that I'm constantly challenged to look at cards that I've always assumed are automatic staples and consider whether they truly belong. When I finally did that for Mogg Fanatic, I found that he wasn't actually as necessary as I thought he was. I considered what he did, and decided that other cards were better for my red decks than he was, and I've been happier since he's been gone. If that's not the case for you, that's ok, but I just wish you'd stop moving the bar all the time.
It's ok to say "I just like Mogg Fanatic, and I don't want to cut him."
I'm going to keep a critical eye on Mogg Fanatic (and Fume Spitter) in my upcoming drafts, based on this discussion - to see how it plays out in drafts/construction/gameplay and will be seeding them into packs, much like I seed new cards into packs.
It's ok to say "I just like Mogg Fanatic, and I don't want to cut him."
To be fair, this is not always easily said, and occasionally it's not even correct. For what it's worth, in this case I agree. There are plenty of occasions, however, in which a card suddenly goes from borderline to playable with a new release or interaction. If pushing Goblins as a sub-theme (something I've been considering) became popular, for example, you can bet your bucks that his stock goes up. Right now I don't think Mogg Fanatic is good enough on merit alone.
Your requirements keep changing. I asked specifically what you wanted this slot to do, and you said "A card that's a creature that can kill creatures on T1"
That would need to be the baseline for any card I'd consider replacing Fanatic with. Using Frostling as an example of a potential Fanatic replacement is not a very good one.
Quote from JeffDereck »
It's ok to say "I just like Mogg Fanatic, and I don't want to cut him."
Of course. That's what I have been saying. But for the purposes of discussion here, I thought it would be better to explain why. That's what the thread is all about, no?
Quote from kojiro »
Right now I don't think Mogg Fanatic is good enough on merit alone.
I very much do.
Quote from PowerConduit »
Quoted for posterity, for when they print 10 new red 2/2s for 1.
Looks like Fanatic will have a lot of cool aggro friends! The more the merrier!
Wow, seven pages on Mogg Fanatic in only two days. I have to admit that I haven't read all of them. You can count me firmly in the pro-Mogg camp though. I think even without damage on the stack, he has a firm place in all but the smallest of cubes, thanks to both the lack of many better red 1-drops (the recent increase of cubable 2-drops has no impact on this matter), as well as the fact that he is actually still good.
Something that people have to consider is, he is awful in some cubes, and great in others.
Why? Because people have different CMC in their overall cube. Wtwlf's cube is very lean on its CMC, so Mogg Fanatic and his copycats can really do some work. If you are not supporting aggro heavily in each colour (besides blue), along with a lot of 1 toughness utility dudes, the fanatic won't perform. (some people forgo supporting a lot of aggro in black and green, for example).
My cube (almost completely the same as Wtwlf's) really lets the fanatic shine. Not only does he hit a lot of 1 mana dorks, he can smite plenty of 2-3 mana dudes as well. A great red aggro card, that gives you some flexibility, and fill the role of a 1 drop beater.
And I like Mogg Fanatic, and I will continue to play with him, until every 1 drop has 2 toughness =).
If you're looking for something similar to Fanatic but different, or if you have a Goblin subtheme going, you might want to try out Goblin Grappler. It serves the same purpose of getting in for 1 a few times, and once he's outclassed has the bonus of pinging a creature and making it unable to block other creatures that turn. But he can't hit players (relevant) or creatures with tap-activated abilities (irrelevant).
I'll be honest: I had no idea Frostling existed. And he kinda proves my point. IMO, the ability to go to the dome for 1 point is almost irrelevant. Yea, sure, sometimes it happens, but it's pretty rare that mogg fanatic deals the finishing blow.
And nobody is cubing with Frostling either, even though he fits all of wtwlf's requirements. You'd think if Mogg Fanatic is that good, and Frostling is that close to mogg fanatic, and if red is that desperate for 1 drops, that we'd be playing both, the same way we play Carnophage still even though we have Diregraf Ghoul. And yet, nobody does.
That's because Frostling is evaluated independently as to whether it's good enough, not based on old experience with a card, when it used to be good enough.
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Goblin Patrol ? Out of tempo.
Stromkirk Noble ? Awfull if not early played.
Lavamancer and Spikeshot ? The first one need to be fuelled, the second usually does what Mogg do for 1RR. Sometimes better.
Jackal Pup. People like him, but everytime I play it it inflicts more damage to myself than my opponent.
What keep Mogg Fanatic in cube lists ? The need of having red early drop and the lack of undiscutable others early drops.
The day they print Isamaru/Savannah Lion in red, okay, i'll cut him. Even then, i'll cut goblin patrol first. And maybe Noble before mogg. And after those, okay.
edit: I don't mention Welder, Gargadon or Gorilla Shaman because they are all on my cube for non-aggro purpose.
Sometimes Mogg Fanatic needs to chump, and none of your opponent's creatures are one toughness away from dying. The 1 point there is another attack out of him.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Mogg Fanatic and Frostling can't target itself with its own ability, so if you have other X/1s and want to block with Fanatic and sacrifice it to prevent an opponent's Wurmcoil Engine from gaining life, you'd have to kill one of your other guys.
I'll admit it's a corner case, but it can make the difference in a game, and that extra point of damage can be very relevant.
I'll go on board saying Fanatic is one of red's worst one drops, but there aren't a plethora of them. For me, I don't play Frostling because it's honestly significantly worse than Fanatic. But if I needed another one drop, I'd consider him.
Also, Noble is way better than Mogg Fanatic.
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Why wouldn't you just deal the damage to your opponent's wurmcoil?
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But I said maybe. I would have not for goblin patrol.
So you don't play aggro cards?
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Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
It can't hit players or planeswalkers, so it doesn't do everything I use Fanatic for. So it doesn't meet all of my requirements.
My requirement to remove Mogg Fanatic: Print something strictly better than Mogg Fanatic. Boom. There. Until I get one, I'm going to cube the Mogg, because it does stuff that no other card like it can do, and I think all the flexibility and versatility of the card is important.
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No worries, that was a joke, I thought it was pretty funny that you said the two cards were "uncomparable" and proceeded to compare them in the exact same post.
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Quoted for posterity, for when they print 10 new red 2/2s for 1.
why wouldn't you play it early? the entire point of cubing with noble is to have a critical mass of similar cards so you can build decks that guarantee a turn one play like this. it's not in the cube to be played on turn 4, and being bad on turn 4 has almost nothing to do with the value of the card.
how could that be possible? you control when it attacks or blocks, are you just not packing enough removal? are you not building decks where it comes out turn 1?
But even if it regularly dealt more damage to me than them, it doesn't matter if it deals a good amount of damage to the opponent.
I'd cube something like this in a heartbeat:
Backlash Bolt
R
Backlash Bolt deals 9 damage to target creature or opponent.
Backlash Bolt deals 10 damage to you.
Draw a card.
Even if it deals you more damage than the opponent, if it deals a ton of damage it's usually valuable in red. That card would be nuts obviously and isn't printable, but it's a bit of hyperbole to prove a point.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
Your requirements keep changing. I asked specifically what you wanted this slot to do, and you said "A card that's a creature that can kill creatures on T1"
The problem with this argument is that you keep shifting the goal so that only Mogg Fanatic can fit this spot. From my vantage point, it seems like you've decided Mogg Fanatic is good enough, and you just continue to make justifications as to why he is good enough without stepping back to look critically at the whole situation. And as long as you've decided that slot can only be filled by Mogg Fanatic, nothing will ever convince you otherwise.
One of my favorite parts about this forum is that I'm constantly challenged to look at cards that I've always assumed are automatic staples and consider whether they truly belong. When I finally did that for Mogg Fanatic, I found that he wasn't actually as necessary as I thought he was. I considered what he did, and decided that other cards were better for my red decks than he was, and I've been happier since he's been gone. If that's not the case for you, that's ok, but I just wish you'd stop moving the bar all the time.
It's ok to say "I just like Mogg Fanatic, and I don't want to cut him."
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That would need to be the baseline for any card I'd consider replacing Fanatic with. Using Frostling as an example of a potential Fanatic replacement is not a very good one.
Of course. That's what I have been saying. But for the purposes of discussion here, I thought it would be better to explain why. That's what the thread is all about, no?
I very much do.
Looks like Fanatic will have a lot of cool aggro friends! The more the merrier!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Something that people have to consider is, he is awful in some cubes, and great in others.
Why? Because people have different CMC in their overall cube. Wtwlf's cube is very lean on its CMC, so Mogg Fanatic and his copycats can really do some work. If you are not supporting aggro heavily in each colour (besides blue), along with a lot of 1 toughness utility dudes, the fanatic won't perform. (some people forgo supporting a lot of aggro in black and green, for example).
My cube (almost completely the same as Wtwlf's) really lets the fanatic shine. Not only does he hit a lot of 1 mana dorks, he can smite plenty of 2-3 mana dudes as well. A great red aggro card, that gives you some flexibility, and fill the role of a 1 drop beater.
And I like Mogg Fanatic, and I will continue to play with him, until every 1 drop has 2 toughness =).
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