It's easier to say that Chrome is better when you replace the Chrome in your hand with a Diamond and show how different it would look. But in practice, it doesn't worth that way because if you remove Chrome from your potential opening hand, you don't draw Diamond instead. You draw the land it replaced instead. It takes up a Land Slot. Diamond takes up a Spell Slot. You can't just interchange the two cards in your hypothetical opener.
Hopefully this entire post clarifies why you can.
People want to exchange opening hands with a Chrome for identical opening hands with a Diamond. It doesn't work that way. In ANY case where you'd have a Diamond in your opening hand, it takes up one of your spell slots. In any case where you have a Chrome in your opening hand, it takes up one of your land slots.
So design any hypothetical opening hand by using X number of spells and Y number of lands, and then replace one of the X's with a Diamond or one of the Y's with a Chrome. In every example, the Spell/Land balance is identical no matter which Mox is played on T1.
I understand what you're saying here, and understand the difference between replacing a spell slot and replacing a land slot and keeping the same spell/land ratio. In a perfect world, it would work exactly as you described. And by perfect world, I mean your deck consists of an equal number of spells and lands; 20 spells and 20 lands in a 40-card deck.
But to show the point I'm actually trying to make, let's take a hypothetical situation which will never happen but I'm exaggerating for the purpose of an example. Let's say your deck is 3 lands and 37 spells. Statistically speaking, it's much more difficult to actually draw the 2x Land, 4x Spell, Diamond hand than the 1x Land, 5x Spell, Chrome hand.
When I say "there aren't an equal number of spells and lands" I don't mean concerning which mox you use. I mean in a typical deck you've got ~17 lands and ~23 spells, and 23 > 17. And since Chrome requires a spell and Diamond requires a land, Chrome > Diamond in terms of not being a blank on T1.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My apologies, children, for I am afraid I cannot save you all.
But to show the point I'm actually trying to make, let's take a hypothetical situation which will never happen but I'm exaggerating for the purpose of an example. Let's say your deck is 3 lands and 37 spells. Statistically speaking, it's much more difficult to actually draw the 2x Land, 4x Spell, Diamond hand than the 1x Land, 5x Spell, Chrome hand.
But that's not relevant in this case, because neither mox changes your spell/land ratio in any potential opening hand.
Design a hand. With any number of potential land/non-land ratio you want. Having 1 less spell and a Diamond or one less land and a Chrome is not going to change whether or not the hand is keepable.
You would have the same number of keepable starting hands in a 36 spell + Diamond + 3 Land deck as you would with a 37 spell + Chrome + 2 land deck.
Including Chrome over Diamond in your lower land count aggro deck does not change the average number of mana sources you will have in your opening hand. Because no 1-mana source hand is keepable. It doesn't change the effectiveness of either card, because there aren't opening hand situations that one mox is more advantageous than another (assuming that you play the Mox on T1).
Give my a hypothetical 7 card hand split any way you want between spells and lands. You're no more likely to be able to keep a hand with 1 less spell and a Diamond than you would be with one less land and a Chrome, because they don't compete for the same slots. Your 37 spell 3 land scenario doesn't change anything. You still have exactly the same number of keepable potential opening hands. Because you don't have 36 + Chrome + 3 lands, you have 37 + Chrome + 2 lands.
But that's not relevant in this case, because neither mox changes your spell/land ratio in any potential opening hand.
Design a hand. With any number of potential land/non-land ratio you want. Having 1 less spell and a Diamond or one less land and a Chrome is not going to change whether or not the hand is keepable.
You would have the same number of keepable starting hands in a 36 spell + Diamond + 3 Land deck as you would with a 37 spell + Chrome + 2 land deck.
Including Chrome over Diamond in your lower land count aggro deck does not change the average number of mana sources you will have in your opening hand. Because no 1-mana source hand is keepable. It doesn't change the effectiveness of either card, because there aren't opening hand situations that one mox is more advantageous than another (assuming that you play the Mox on T1).
Give my a hypothetical 7 card hand split any way you want between spells and lands. You're no more likely to be able to keep a hand with 1 less spell and a Diamond than you would be with one less land and a Chrome, because they don't compete for the same slots. Your 37 spell 3 land scenario doesn't change anything. You still have exactly the same number of keepable potential opening hands. Because you don't have 36 + Chrome + 3 lands, you have 37 + Chrome + 2 lands.
The thing that I like about Chrome Mox are the advantages it has on flexibility. It's a better card when you don't cast it, so low curve decks have the option of keeping a low land gameplan going and have more total gas. Diamond doesn't have this advantage. You might as well play the card if you can and you've drawn it. Additionally, the Chrome Mox can help with a rough opening hand curve, because you can pitch curve-irrelevant spells to help with the early game development (thanks to eidolon for pointing this out). Depending on the suite of opening spell slots in your starting hand, Diamond might not help with this.
But the Diamond's advantages are superior, IMO. The fixing is perfect. It always taps for one mana of every color, regardless of what I pitch to it, which is so important for all decks in the early stages of the game. I love that I can't get into awkward positions with it where the card I wanna pitch doesn't allow it to tap for the correct color of mana like I can with the Chrome. The overall quality of the spell card I have to lose to get it to the table is much lower than the average spell quality that gets attached to the Chrome, because I'm always able to remove card #23 instead of card #X (as X is 22 if you're lucky, but gets higher as color requirements and colorless cards interfere with your pitch options). I also like the corner cases where the dead land is relevant too. I can snag an extra land in my yard with Will, Loam or Crucible, and even some cases with Witness/Regrowth and the like.
I like both cards. In an unpowered 360, I'd play both for sure. For powered lists, I think the fixing on the Diamond is still unprecedented, and I'd play it still. But I would probably pass on Chrome for cubes up until 450 or so if I have the other 5 ABU Moxen available. But even in a 450+ powered cube, Chrome is a welcome addition. This discussion got way lopsided and off-focus, mostly do to the side-tracked discussion regarding the quality of keepable opening hands and the quality of the cards once in play. I think those latter two topics have been discussed to death, and the real part of the discussion boils down to: Chrome Mox is good, and should be played in most cubes. This has been a heated and powerful topic to discuss, but hopefully we can dedicate our energy to something with a more productive outcome. Thanks for the good discussion everybody.
But that's not relevant in this case, because neither mox changes your spell/land ratio in any potential opening hand.
Design a hand. With any number of potential land/non-land ratio you want. Having 1 less spell and a Diamond or one less land and a Chrome is not going to change whether or not the hand is keepable.
You would have the same number of keepable starting hands in a 36 spell + Diamond + 3 Land deck as you would with a 37 spell + Chrome + 2 land deck.
Including Chrome over Diamond in your lower land count aggro deck does not change the average number of mana sources you will have in your opening hand. Because no 1-mana source hand is keepable. It doesn't change the effectiveness of either card, because there aren't opening hand situations that one mox is more advantageous than another (assuming that you play the Mox on T1).
Give my a hypothetical 7 card hand split any way you want between spells and lands. You're no more likely to be able to keep a hand with 1 less spell and a Diamond than you would be with one less land and a Chrome, because they don't compete for the same slots. Your 37 spell 3 land scenario doesn't change anything. You still have exactly the same number of keepable potential opening hands. Because you don't have 36 + Chrome + 3 lands, you have 37 + Chrome + 2 lands.
Nobody is saying you don't have the same chance of getting the same amount of mana sources. But what they're trying to say is that regardless of which mox you have, if you have a higher spell count than land count in your deck, you are more likely to draw a hand with more spells than mana sources. And in a hand where you have more spells than mana sources, chrome mox has a higher chance to be better.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to Cube but don't have one? Check the map if anyone is in your area and get cubing!
Nobody is saying you don't have the same chance of getting the same amount of mana sources.
Actually, that's exactly what's being said:
Quote from JeffDereck »
If I have a hand that has the mox in question, and then a random 6 cards from the rest of the deck, I am more likely to have a card to imprint on chrome mox than I am to have a land to discard to diamond
And in a hand where you have more spells than mana sources, chrome mox has a higher chance to be better.
No, it doesn't. You won't have a hand where the total number of mana sources is greater with one mox or the other. You're never delivered a more keepable hand based on your spell/land ratio because of either mox. Assuming that you play the Mox.
After the mox is played, you still have the exact same number of spells and mana sources leftover, no matter which mox you use.
Regardless of whether is better in hypothetical situations where you draw identical hands, but with the corresponding mox in its place, the best thing about chrome mox is its positives when it's not cast like you stated. In a 15 land aggro deck I would rather run chrome mod because if I draw it in my opening hand it will be just as good as a mox diamond, given my hand composition. If this is my hypothetical hand...
Land
Land
Spell
Spell
Spell
Spell
Spell
And it doesn't contain a mox my aggro deck is better with the chrome mod. My deck with the chrome mox contains 12 lands and a chrome mox. If I'm running mox diamond my deck has 13 lands and a mox diamond which is 2 more dead cards. That makes chrome mod better in the aggro deck then mox diamond.
Is this correct or did I evaluate something wrong.
Regardless of whether is better in hypothetical situations where you draw identical hands, but with the corresponding mox in its place, the best thing about chrome mox is its positives when it's not cast like you stated.
Correct, I stated this above. I also like that about Chrome Mox.
In a 15 land aggro deck I would rather run chrome mod because if I draw it in my opening hand it will be just as good as a mox diamond, given my hand composition.
That's not necessarily true. The fixing you get from the Diamond will be better if you're going to actually cast the mox. So if you do in fact play one of the two Moxen, you get a better effect from the Diamond.
And it doesn't contain a mox my aggro deck is better with the chrome mod. My deck with the chrome mox contains 12 lands and a chrome mox. If I'm running mox diamond my deck has 13 lands and a mox diamond which is 2 more dead cards. That makes chrome mod better in the aggro deck then mox diamond.
Is this correct or did I evaluate something wrong.
Again, this can be correct. Some of the time. In cases where you don't play the Mox, the Chrome is often better. But in cases where the Mox is cast, the Diamond is superior. But keep in mind, even in this situation, you may want to draw an additional mana source or two at some point. The later on the game goes, the less valuable either Mox will be. But if I'm holding just a 4-drop and have 3 lands in play, I have a better shot of topdecking that 4th land if I'm running the Diamond than I do with a lower land count because of the Chrome. So they're about even in this case, depending on what's in your hand. So in a mid-late game situation where I want to topdeck cheap gas, the Chrome is the better choice. But in that same situation if I need to topdeck a land, the Diamond can be the better choice.
The Chrome Mox replaces a land. In that situation, if you are running Mox Diamond and need to cast that 4-drop, you need to draw one of the X lands left in your deck. If you are running Chrome Mox, you need to draw one of the X-1 lands left in your deck, or the Chrome Mox, assuming you have another card in your hand. Odds are even.
Assuming I have another card to pitch, sure. In the example you quoted, the 4-drop was alone in the player's hand when they were looking for that 4th land. The chances of drawing the land in that deck is slightly lower than it is in the deck that didn't remove one of its lands.
I can't find comment earlier in the thread, but one significant advantage Diamond has is that it helps with splashes, whereas Chrome does not, unless you draw two splash cards, imprinting one and casting the other. This is another reason why, P1P1 I'd pick Diamond over Chrome.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
No, it doesn't. You won't have a hand where the total number of mana sources is greater with one mox or the other. You're never delivered a more keepable hand based on your spell/land ratio because of either mox. Assuming that you play the Mox.
After the mox is played, you still have the exact same number of spells and mana sources leftover, no matter which mox you use.
Ok after more thinking about it you're right on that
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to Cube but don't have one? Check the map if anyone is in your area and get cubing!
Because it was in response to the discussion about being able to keep more opening hands because it has more targets, when it doesn't.
The later the game goes, the less relevant either Mox is going to be. After the first few turns, I'm really unlikely to cast either.
Quote from eidolon »
You still want to play some acceleration, but don't necessarily have the extra land to spare ~turn 2-4 while at the same time drawing a spell instead of Mox Diamond can make the difference between winning and losing in the later turns.
Just like when you need to topdeck a land because you have a spell in your hand you need to cast, you're less likely to draw one because there's fewer in your deck.
This was the one land that got replaced with the Mox, so it means that you still have the option to exile a card in your hand to cast your spells.
Sure I would have prefered a land in that situation, but it is not like I am drawing a blank.
It can be if you don't have another card to pitch to it, or the card is the wrong color, or the card you want to pitch is a colorless card.
After the first few turns, it's pretty much a blank. Both moxen are. One has the disadvantage of taking up a spell slot when you're looking to draw spells, and the other has the disadvantage of taking up one of your land slots when you're looking to draw lands.
No, it doesn't. You won't have a hand where the total number of mana sources is greater with one mox or the other. You're never delivered a more keepable hand based on your spell/land ratio because of either mox. Assuming that you play the Mox.
I don't agree with this. I'll try my best to explain what I mean. It's true that your ratio of mana sources to spells doesn't change depending on which mox you use; however, the important part here is that both Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox are actually useless as the only card in your hand. They require other cards to work.
Let's use my 'will never happen' hypothetical deck and take it slightly more to the extreme as an example. Let's say deck A has Chrome Mox and 39 spells. Let's say deck B has Mox Diamond, 1 land and 38 spells.
Deck A:
Chance of drawing Chrome Mox in opening 7: ~17.5%
Chance of drawing a spell to compliment Chrome Mox in opening 7: 100%
Chance of drawing both: ~17.5%.
Deck B:
Chance of drawing Mox Diamond in opening 7: ~17.5%
Chance of drawing land to compliment Mox Diamond in opening 7: ~17.5%.
Chance of drawing both: ~2.7%
Now obviously in a real deck it won't be this drastic, but in any deck where the ratio of spells and lands is skewed, there will be a higher % chance to get keepable hands with a Chrome Mox.
Now obviously in a real deck it won't be this drastic, but in any deck where the ratio of spells and lands is skewed, there will be a higher % chance to get keepable hands with a Chrome Mox.
You're starting with Chrome vs Diamond in these scenarios. You can't do that, because they don't compete for the same spots.
Lets assume you have a keepable hand:
5 spells
2 lands
or
4 spells
3 lands
Replace a spell with Diamond (because it takes a spell slot):
4 spells
Diamond
2 Lands
or
3 spells
Diamond
3 lands
No matter which hand you choose, you still have a keepable hand there, and you still have the same number of overall mana sources in either hand.
Do the same for the Chrome:
Lets assume you have a keepable hand:
5 spells
2 lands
or
4 spells
3 lands
Replace a land with Chrome (because it takes a land slot):
5 spells
Chrome
Land
or
4 spells
Chrome
2 lands
No matter which hand you choose, you still have a keepable hand there, and you still have the same number of overall mana sources in either hand.
..........
So, no matter which opening hand you would've drawn, you have the same land/spell ratio no matter which mox you had.
Now. Lets assume you have an unkeepable hand:
6 spells
1 land
or
1 spell
6 lands
Replace a spell with a Diamond, or a land with a Chrome, and you still have the same land/spell ratio in each hand, and neither hand is keepable. Once again, neither mox is more or less likely to provide a hand with a different land/spell ratio than the other, assuming the mox gets played.
..........
Your example starts with:
Diamond/Chrome
+ 6 other cards
Which isn't an apt comparison. Because any time the first rip off your deck would be a Diamond, it would be a spell instead, and any time you'd rip a Chrome as card #1 for your opening hand, it would be a land instead. You don't substitute Diamond for Chrome in any hypothetical. You substitute a spell for Diamond, and a Land for Chrome. The hand gets designed first, then replace a matching card type for the respective Mox for what the hypothetical opener would look like.
Which isn't an apt comparison. Because any time the first rip off your deck would be a Diamond, it would be a spell instead, and any time you'd rip a Chrome as card #1 for your opening hand, it would be a land instead.
Yep. However, the comparison that isn't apt here is actually trying to see which of them you draw, since both are actually useless in their own. The correct comparison is determining the likelihood of drawing both a Chrome and a spell or a Diamond and a land, which I have attempted to outline in the above post.
You don't substitute Diamond for Chrome in any hypothetical. You substitute a spell for Diamond, and a Land for Chrome. The hand gets designed first, then replace a matching card type for the respective Mox for what the hypothetical opener would look like.
This is where we disagree I think. In a real game, you don't get to design a hand. You get to draw from the cards in your library. And when you do, statistical probability indicates that drawing a Chrome + spell is more likely than drawing Diamond + land, since almost all decks are skewed in a way which favors more spells than lands.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My apologies, children, for I am afraid I cannot save you all.
This is where we disagree I think. In a real game, you don't get to design a hand. You get to draw from the cards in your library. And when you do, statistical probability indicates that drawing a Chrome + spell is more likely than drawing Diamond + land, since almost all decks are skewed in a way which favors more spells than lands.
But since the Diamond was drawn instead of a spell as a Chrome is drawn instead of a land, the total land/spell ratio in your opening hand won't change. Considering the draws off the top will be:
Spell/Diamond
Land/Chrome
Spell
Spell
Spell
Land
Land
Or whatever other combination you want to hypothetically come up with for the last 5 slots. It makes no difference. Because either card will have left you with the exact same combination of land sources and nonland sources after the spell is cast. Because it's not Diamond/Chrome for the first card you draw. It's Diamond/Spell or Chrome/Land, not Chrome/Spell.
Or whatever other combination you want to hypothetically come up with for the last 5 slots. It makes no difference. Because either card will have left you with the exact same combination of land sources and nonland sources after the spell is cast. Because it's not Diamond/Chrome for the first card you draw. It's Diamond/Spell or Chrome/Land, not Chrome/Spell.
But what I'm saying is that you're making the incorrect assumption that drawing (Chrome and a spell) or drawing a (Diamond and a land) in your opening hand is the same probability, which it isn't.
Let me repost my hypothetical deck:
Deck A = (Chrome Mox + 39 spells):
Chance of drawing Chrome Mox in opening 7: ~17.5%
Chance of drawing a spell to compliment Chrome Mox in opening 7: 100% Chance of drawing both: ~17.5%.
Deck B = (Mox Diamond + Land + 38 Spells):
Chance of drawing Mox Diamond in opening 7: ~17.5%
Chance of drawing land to compliment Mox Diamond in opening 7: ~17.5%. Chance of drawing both: ~2.7%
Note that both decks have the same number of mana sources and the same chance to draw either Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond. Yet, the chance to draw an active mox is skewed in Chrome's favor. That's because there's significantly more cards in the deck that 'turn on' Chrome over ones that 'turn on' the Diamond. And this is true in a real deck as well. The probability I'm talking about comes into play even before you draw your hand. I'm no good at explaining I guess, I don't know.
Edit: Ok! I believe I see what you're saying? In Deck B's example, you can just draw the land instead of the Diamond altogether and you'd still have a mana source with one dead card in your deck (the Diamond) which would be equivalent to the 'dead' card under the Chrome.
New discussion:
In this 'deck that will never happen' case, I'd rather add in Chrome Mox since you can pick what your dead card is on the fly, instead of the dead card being picked for you at deck construction. In a case where the deck significantly favors more spells than lands (such as an aggro deck), I'd go for Chrome as well for the same reason.
That hypothetical deck can't produce a hand that would be keepable with one and not with the other. And I don't think that a deck with a normal number of mana sources can either. I see what you're saying, but it doesn't apply with keepable opening hands, because once you remove a land to add a chrome, the hand would be just as keepable if you removed a spell and added a Diamond.
Any hypothetical hand you could keep based on the land/nonland ratio would have the exact same land/nonland ratio if you replace a land with a Chrome, or replace a spell with a Diamond.
Because the cards don't compete for the same slot, you can't simply compare Chrome/Diamond + 6 random cards, because that's not how they'd be drawn in practice. If I cut Diamond and added Chrome from the deck, it would change how my opening hands are effected by the mox. But if I cut Diamond for a Spell and cut a land for the Chrome, it doesn't.
Although there are indeed more spells than lands they may not all be relevant. If I need my Mox to fix as well as accelerate, I can pitch any land to Diamond, but in a two colour deck I will usually have fewer spells of a given colour.
Chrome is better in a mono- or near mono-colour aggressive deck. Diamond is better in slower decks or where I am running a splash. Because Diamond is better in the aggro decks than Chrome is in slower multicolour decks, I will pick it P1P1.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I think this thread is just 8 pages of circling the same point. I'm siding with Wtwlf. I've been playing both as mana sources, but he has totally convinced me that it is the improper way.
Edit: Derp. I pretty much just re-opened this. Didn't realize it was days old by now. I think this has been sitting in an open tab in my browser for a few days. Move along, nothing to see here.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently playing in EDH:
W Jazal Goldmane WR Daretti, Scrap Savant R B Ghoulcaller Gisa BUG Prime Speaker ZeganaUG UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UGBG Nath, of the Gilt-Leaf BG RG Ruric Thar, the Unbowed RGUB Dragonlord Silumgar UB UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBGWUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRGBRG Prossh, Skyrider of Kher BRG WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius WUBUBR Thraximundar UBR URG Yasova Dragonclaw URGWUR Zedruu, the Greathearted WUR WBG Daghatar the Adamant WBGWUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
I understand what you're saying here, and understand the difference between replacing a spell slot and replacing a land slot and keeping the same spell/land ratio. In a perfect world, it would work exactly as you described. And by perfect world, I mean your deck consists of an equal number of spells and lands; 20 spells and 20 lands in a 40-card deck.
But to show the point I'm actually trying to make, let's take a hypothetical situation which will never happen but I'm exaggerating for the purpose of an example. Let's say your deck is 3 lands and 37 spells. Statistically speaking, it's much more difficult to actually draw the 2x Land, 4x Spell, Diamond hand than the 1x Land, 5x Spell, Chrome hand.
When I say "there aren't an equal number of spells and lands" I don't mean concerning which mox you use. I mean in a typical deck you've got ~17 lands and ~23 spells, and 23 > 17. And since Chrome requires a spell and Diamond requires a land, Chrome > Diamond in terms of not being a blank on T1.
But that's not relevant in this case, because neither mox changes your spell/land ratio in any potential opening hand.
Design a hand. With any number of potential land/non-land ratio you want. Having 1 less spell and a Diamond or one less land and a Chrome is not going to change whether or not the hand is keepable.
You would have the same number of keepable starting hands in a 36 spell + Diamond + 3 Land deck as you would with a 37 spell + Chrome + 2 land deck.
Including Chrome over Diamond in your lower land count aggro deck does not change the average number of mana sources you will have in your opening hand. Because no 1-mana source hand is keepable. It doesn't change the effectiveness of either card, because there aren't opening hand situations that one mox is more advantageous than another (assuming that you play the Mox on T1).
Give my a hypothetical 7 card hand split any way you want between spells and lands. You're no more likely to be able to keep a hand with 1 less spell and a Diamond than you would be with one less land and a Chrome, because they don't compete for the same slots. Your 37 spell 3 land scenario doesn't change anything. You still have exactly the same number of keepable potential opening hands. Because you don't have 36 + Chrome + 3 lands, you have 37 + Chrome + 2 lands.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I agree with all this.
But the Diamond's advantages are superior, IMO. The fixing is perfect. It always taps for one mana of every color, regardless of what I pitch to it, which is so important for all decks in the early stages of the game. I love that I can't get into awkward positions with it where the card I wanna pitch doesn't allow it to tap for the correct color of mana like I can with the Chrome. The overall quality of the spell card I have to lose to get it to the table is much lower than the average spell quality that gets attached to the Chrome, because I'm always able to remove card #23 instead of card #X (as X is 22 if you're lucky, but gets higher as color requirements and colorless cards interfere with your pitch options). I also like the corner cases where the dead land is relevant too. I can snag an extra land in my yard with Will, Loam or Crucible, and even some cases with Witness/Regrowth and the like.
I like both cards. In an unpowered 360, I'd play both for sure. For powered lists, I think the fixing on the Diamond is still unprecedented, and I'd play it still. But I would probably pass on Chrome for cubes up until 450 or so if I have the other 5 ABU Moxen available. But even in a 450+ powered cube, Chrome is a welcome addition. This discussion got way lopsided and off-focus, mostly do to the side-tracked discussion regarding the quality of keepable opening hands and the quality of the cards once in play. I think those latter two topics have been discussed to death, and the real part of the discussion boils down to: Chrome Mox is good, and should be played in most cubes. This has been a heated and powerful topic to discuss, but hopefully we can dedicate our energy to something with a more productive outcome. Thanks for the good discussion everybody.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Nobody is saying you don't have the same chance of getting the same amount of mana sources. But what they're trying to say is that regardless of which mox you have, if you have a higher spell count than land count in your deck, you are more likely to draw a hand with more spells than mana sources. And in a hand where you have more spells than mana sources, chrome mox has a higher chance to be better.
The Great Cube Map!
My Powered Cube
Draft it here!
Actually, that's exactly what's being said:
...
No, it doesn't. You won't have a hand where the total number of mana sources is greater with one mox or the other. You're never delivered a more keepable hand based on your spell/land ratio because of either mox. Assuming that you play the Mox.
After the mox is played, you still have the exact same number of spells and mana sources leftover, no matter which mox you use.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Land
Land
Spell
Spell
Spell
Spell
Spell
And it doesn't contain a mox my aggro deck is better with the chrome mod. My deck with the chrome mox contains 12 lands and a chrome mox. If I'm running mox diamond my deck has 13 lands and a mox diamond which is 2 more dead cards. That makes chrome mod better in the aggro deck then mox diamond.
Is this correct or did I evaluate something wrong.
Correct, I stated this above. I also like that about Chrome Mox.
That's not necessarily true. The fixing you get from the Diamond will be better if you're going to actually cast the mox. So if you do in fact play one of the two Moxen, you get a better effect from the Diamond.
Again, this can be correct. Some of the time. In cases where you don't play the Mox, the Chrome is often better. But in cases where the Mox is cast, the Diamond is superior. But keep in mind, even in this situation, you may want to draw an additional mana source or two at some point. The later on the game goes, the less valuable either Mox will be. But if I'm holding just a 4-drop and have 3 lands in play, I have a better shot of topdecking that 4th land if I'm running the Diamond than I do with a lower land count because of the Chrome. So they're about even in this case, depending on what's in your hand. So in a mid-late game situation where I want to topdeck cheap gas, the Chrome is the better choice. But in that same situation if I need to topdeck a land, the Diamond can be the better choice.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Assuming I have another card to pitch, sure. In the example you quoted, the 4-drop was alone in the player's hand when they were looking for that 4th land. The chances of drawing the land in that deck is slightly lower than it is in the deck that didn't remove one of its lands.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
There's really a reason why this is the
bestonly board on these forums.EDH Decks:
- Reya Dawnbringer // - Mistform Ultimus // - Balthor the Defiled // - Urabrask the Hidden // - Mirri, Cat Warrior
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Ok after more thinking about it you're right on that
The Great Cube Map!
My Powered Cube
Draft it here!
Because it was in response to the discussion about being able to keep more opening hands because it has more targets, when it doesn't.
The later the game goes, the less relevant either Mox is going to be. After the first few turns, I'm really unlikely to cast either.
Just like when you need to topdeck a land because you have a spell in your hand you need to cast, you're less likely to draw one because there's fewer in your deck.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
It can be if you don't have another card to pitch to it, or the card is the wrong color, or the card you want to pitch is a colorless card.
After the first few turns, it's pretty much a blank. Both moxen are. One has the disadvantage of taking up a spell slot when you're looking to draw spells, and the other has the disadvantage of taking up one of your land slots when you're looking to draw lands.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I don't agree with this. I'll try my best to explain what I mean. It's true that your ratio of mana sources to spells doesn't change depending on which mox you use; however, the important part here is that both Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox are actually useless as the only card in your hand. They require other cards to work.
Let's use my 'will never happen' hypothetical deck and take it slightly more to the extreme as an example. Let's say deck A has Chrome Mox and 39 spells. Let's say deck B has Mox Diamond, 1 land and 38 spells.
Deck A:
Chance of drawing Chrome Mox in opening 7: ~17.5%
Chance of drawing a spell to compliment Chrome Mox in opening 7: 100%
Chance of drawing both: ~17.5%.
Deck B:
Chance of drawing Mox Diamond in opening 7: ~17.5%
Chance of drawing land to compliment Mox Diamond in opening 7: ~17.5%.
Chance of drawing both: ~2.7%
Now obviously in a real deck it won't be this drastic, but in any deck where the ratio of spells and lands is skewed, there will be a higher % chance to get keepable hands with a Chrome Mox.
This I do agree with, but the question is whether you actually get a keepable hand on turn one. Hopefully I explained myself properly.
You're starting with Chrome vs Diamond in these scenarios. You can't do that, because they don't compete for the same spots.
Lets assume you have a keepable hand:
5 spells
2 lands
or
4 spells
3 lands
Replace a spell with Diamond (because it takes a spell slot):
4 spells
Diamond
2 Lands
or
3 spells
Diamond
3 lands
No matter which hand you choose, you still have a keepable hand there, and you still have the same number of overall mana sources in either hand.
Do the same for the Chrome:
Lets assume you have a keepable hand:
5 spells
2 lands
or
4 spells
3 lands
Replace a land with Chrome (because it takes a land slot):
5 spells
Chrome
Land
or
4 spells
Chrome
2 lands
No matter which hand you choose, you still have a keepable hand there, and you still have the same number of overall mana sources in either hand.
..........
So, no matter which opening hand you would've drawn, you have the same land/spell ratio no matter which mox you had.
Now. Lets assume you have an unkeepable hand:
6 spells
1 land
or
1 spell
6 lands
Replace a spell with a Diamond, or a land with a Chrome, and you still have the same land/spell ratio in each hand, and neither hand is keepable. Once again, neither mox is more or less likely to provide a hand with a different land/spell ratio than the other, assuming the mox gets played.
..........
Your example starts with:
Diamond/Chrome
+ 6 other cards
Which isn't an apt comparison. Because any time the first rip off your deck would be a Diamond, it would be a spell instead, and any time you'd rip a Chrome as card #1 for your opening hand, it would be a land instead. You don't substitute Diamond for Chrome in any hypothetical. You substitute a spell for Diamond, and a Land for Chrome. The hand gets designed first, then replace a matching card type for the respective Mox for what the hypothetical opener would look like.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
This is where we disagree I think. In a real game, you don't get to design a hand. You get to draw from the cards in your library. And when you do, statistical probability indicates that drawing a Chrome + spell is more likely than drawing Diamond + land, since almost all decks are skewed in a way which favors more spells than lands.
But since the Diamond was drawn instead of a spell as a Chrome is drawn instead of a land, the total land/spell ratio in your opening hand won't change. Considering the draws off the top will be:
Spell/Diamond
Land/Chrome
Spell
Spell
Spell
Land
Land
Or whatever other combination you want to hypothetically come up with for the last 5 slots. It makes no difference. Because either card will have left you with the exact same combination of land sources and nonland sources after the spell is cast. Because it's not Diamond/Chrome for the first card you draw. It's Diamond/Spell or Chrome/Land, not Chrome/Spell.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
But what I'm saying is that you're making the incorrect assumption that drawing (Chrome and a spell) or drawing a (Diamond and a land) in your opening hand is the same probability, which it isn't.
Let me repost my hypothetical deck:
Deck A = (Chrome Mox + 39 spells):
Chance of drawing Chrome Mox in opening 7: ~17.5%
Chance of drawing a spell to compliment Chrome Mox in opening 7: 100%
Chance of drawing both: ~17.5%.
Deck B = (Mox Diamond + Land + 38 Spells):
Chance of drawing Mox Diamond in opening 7: ~17.5%
Chance of drawing land to compliment Mox Diamond in opening 7: ~17.5%.
Chance of drawing both: ~2.7%
Note that both decks have the same number of mana sources and the same chance to draw either Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond. Yet, the chance to draw an active mox is skewed in Chrome's favor. That's because there's significantly more cards in the deck that 'turn on' Chrome over ones that 'turn on' the Diamond. And this is true in a real deck as well. The probability I'm talking about comes into play even before you draw your hand. I'm no good at explaining I guess, I don't know.
Edit: Ok! I believe I see what you're saying? In Deck B's example, you can just draw the land instead of the Diamond altogether and you'd still have a mana source with one dead card in your deck (the Diamond) which would be equivalent to the 'dead' card under the Chrome.
New discussion:
In this 'deck that will never happen' case, I'd rather add in Chrome Mox since you can pick what your dead card is on the fly, instead of the dead card being picked for you at deck construction. In a case where the deck significantly favors more spells than lands (such as an aggro deck), I'd go for Chrome as well for the same reason.
Any hypothetical hand you could keep based on the land/nonland ratio would have the exact same land/nonland ratio if you replace a land with a Chrome, or replace a spell with a Diamond.
Because the cards don't compete for the same slot, you can't simply compare Chrome/Diamond + 6 random cards, because that's not how they'd be drawn in practice. If I cut Diamond and added Chrome from the deck, it would change how my opening hands are effected by the mox. But if I cut Diamond for a Spell and cut a land for the Chrome, it doesn't.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Chrome is better in a mono- or near mono-colour aggressive deck. Diamond is better in slower decks or where I am running a splash. Because Diamond is better in the aggro decks than Chrome is in slower multicolour decks, I will pick it P1P1.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Edit: Derp. I pretty much just re-opened this. Didn't realize it was days old by now. I think this has been sitting in an open tab in my browser for a few days. Move along, nothing to see here.
W Jazal Goldmane W R Daretti, Scrap Savant R
B Ghoulcaller Gisa B UG Prime Speaker ZeganaUG
UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG BG Nath, of the Gilt-Leaf BG
RG Ruric Thar, the Unbowed RG UB Dragonlord Silumgar UB
UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG
WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG BRG Prossh, Skyrider of Kher BRG
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius WUB UBR Thraximundar UBR
URG Yasova Dragonclaw URG WUR Zedruu, the Greathearted WUR
WBG Daghatar the Adamant WBG WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG