I think on top of straight card strength, the card is also interesting and flavorful, although I have to admit that I also like Dragons a lot.
When it comes down to it, which expensive creatures you play is mostly a matter of personal preference. Every color has enough powerful 4,5,6, and 7 drops now that you can't fit them all in most cubes. I personally think that SGC is a more powerful card than the Thundermaw, but having more powerful cards isn't really what makes a cube better.
I think on top of straight card strength, the card is also interesting and flavorful, although I have to admit that I also like Dragons a lot.
When it comes down to it, which expensive creatures you play is mostly a matter of personal preference. Every color has enough powerful 4,5,6, and 7 drops now that you can't fit them all in most cubes. I personally think that SGC is a more powerful card than the Thundermaw, but having more powerful cards isn't really what makes a cube better.
I agree. I think SGC is the most interesting and powerful 5 CMC card in red.
Nothing personal, just looking for what other angles you are looking for. Your comments lead me to think you are analyzing SCG in an aggro deck almost exclusively, which is a primary red trait, but not the only one, which I think people here will suggest. SCG plays well in other archetypes too, and I think that versatility is what people want in a 5 drop, as opposed to straight doming.
In my experience with SGC, if you untap with it, generally you win because it is so versatile. A couple people have said that it draws removal like a magnet, and there is a reason for that. If it isn't removed, the game ends. In relation to the other two cards, both cards are great at dealing damage right now which is something that red aggro decks like, but unless that damage is lethal damage, both cards lose much of their late game stamina in the following turns. SGC maintains that stamina through interactions with other cards as well as the basic reach inherent in the card which allows it to fit into more decks.
Does this card still make the cut in cubes 360-450? I've had it in forever because people insist it's good, but we've cubed like 30+ times and this card has almost never made the cut in any mainboard because it costs way too much for RDW and decks like Jund midrange never really get the chance to take off.
Thundermaw Hellkite is definitely better. I'd also rather have that slot dedicated to Urabrask the Hidden or Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker most of the time. Also, red doesn't really need 5 drops anyways most of the time. What deck wants to play them? Like, I wouldn't include blue 8 drops so that I can "curve out" in my U/W tempo deck. Can you give some insight on your decision to include it?
I'm not doubting your experience or the cards raw power, it just doesn't seem like a card anybody ever really wants in cube.
Siege-Gang Commander sees relatively sparse play, less than most red five drops. Now that we have P&K I can see how it is cuttable in small cubes. Thundermaw is both stronger and more playable as it can be an aggro curve topper, if I was playing a single red five drop it would be the one. However Sarkhan is not something to write home about in my experience. It usually kills a creature and then dies to the next attack, or wins in games that you otherwise would have won with basically anything.
I'm still a big fan of SGC. Dropping it after Purphoros is insane, and it has received a boon from Feldon and still is a boss with recursion. I would definitely play it over Urabrask.
I think SGC is the best red 5-drop. It's playable everywhere, not vulnerable to spot removal, can provide 8+ damage of non-combat reach (and direct creature/planeswalker removal!), plays well in decks that are abusing ETB triggers (like 'Lark, Recruiters, Vat, Feldon, Alesha, Nightmare, flickers/blinks/bounces, etc), plays great in stax/pox sacrifice/aristocrat kinds of decks AND it is a powerhouse in token-centric shells. I think it's both the intrinsically strongest 5-drop and the most interactive 5-drop red has to offer. It's close with Thundermaw. It's leagues better than everything else.
Purphoros, Opposition, Reveillark, and Recurring Nightmare are some of the cards that make me value SGC highly. It is rare that it makes the maindeck of the hyper-aggressive red deck, but even then, its a great option for that deck against sweepers.
I love curving Purphoros into Siege-Gang. Then you start sacking your goblins next turn and win.
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The best SGC seems to do for us is usually work well in Opposition builds as our cube doesn't play cards like Purphoros and doesn't really support token strategies. That is really unfortunate because although he is certainly strong, no deck really wants him outside of maybe R/G midrange of which there are usually better cards to play since any double-red cards played must be stellar as the deck can often struggle to get RR on turn 3.
The reason I mentioned Urabrask the hidden is because it can often come down on turn 3 in R/G midrange builds and just steamroll the opponent out of the game like no other card. Additionally, it is generally one of the enablers used in the Survival of the Fittest+Living Death deck, which comes together a surprisingly large amount of the time and with Urabrask can often win as early as turn 4, just fast enough to evade a boardwipe from the opponent, which is incredible. He's not always great, but when he is he has an extremely unique effect in cube and is very cool to both play and watch (but maybe not to play against haha). He's like the Malygos of MTG: If he survives a turn the opponent is probably in big trouble. The only thing that beats the feeling of Urabrask into Prime Time is killing your opponent from deck size with a Seasons Past (a very underrated card by the way, the card is amazing with the right support).
I mentioned Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker because he is one of the best on-color proactive cards you can play before Wildfire, the only red-heavy deck that usually wants late game. Often even better than Thundermaw Hellkite in Wildfire decks if you can prevent him from dying before you drop the Fire on turn 4-5. Also important to mention though that he is definitely worse than Chandra, Torch of Defiance in most scenarios, but he's still a card I am probably a ways away from cutting.
SGC inteacts with everything and works well with Token support, Stax, Aristocrats, Opposition, Reveillark, Imperial Recruiter, Feldon, Alesha, flicker, Goblins, Recurring Nightmare and Attrition, and just makes for interesting complex gamestates.
I know I have a bias toward featuring old creature staples, but I think Commander earns a spot in any cube just due to the number of productive interactions it has with other cards.
Yes, but how many of those cards would you put in the same deck as Commander? Only one or two realistically. Really only Tokens and Opposition. Decks like Goblins almost never actually come together, and Imperial Recruiter and Alesha aren't decktypes, just cards that work with him, although extremely slowly. He's still fine like you said, but I feel like (especially at 360-450 cubes where space is tight) people are including SGC based on raw power and favoritism, rather than merit and ability to actually fit into maindecks anymore. Just because a card is good vs control in your SB doesn't mean it belongs in your tight cube if it only gets to see play one in every 3 or 4 matches.
If you support tokens and many other interactions then it is likely very strong and deserves a slot, but people keep throwing around the term "360 Staple" as if it just means a card is good, but a real 360 staple is either insanely powerful or supports a deck or multiple archtypes like few other cards can. I agree that Siege-Gang Commander is quite powerful, especially with the right synergies, but nowadays it just isn't powerful enough or fast enough to warrant a thoughtless inclusion into any cube of any size uncontested.
I really want to know what others think on the subject, because I am planning on cutting Siege-Gang Commander in favor of Abbot of Keral-Keep, a card that plays great in RDW, R/U Tempo, R/U/w Spells-Matter and R/W Aggro. However, although cutting Siege-Gang Commander makes sense sense to me, it just feels wrong because it's one of the few cards left that I've played it since my cube's inception.
SGC doesn't need synergies to be great. Before even things like Purphoros / Reveillark / Alesha / Goblin Rabblemaster / Recruiter of the Guard existed, SGC is just pure value by itself. Abbot of Keral-Keep is a lower-tier red 2-drop, IMO, there's no way I'd advocate cutting SGC for it.
It's 5 power, 4 bodies, and at least 8 reach damage with a ton of synergies that have been well-covered here. Objectively, I don't think you could read this thread and not come to the conclusion that SGC belongs in any cube that cares about power level and isn't niche in nature. Thundermaw and SGC are far and away the best 5 drops followed by Kiki/Conscripts. Sarkhan is outclassed by two Chandra's and a Koth in the PW slots and as a Dragon he might not even be better than Glorybringer or Stormbreath Dragon. Urabrask got outclassed a long while ago as well. Also don't think Seasons End merits a cube slot, but that's for another thread.
Like everyone else has mention SGC doesn't need synergies it just wins by itself. I think he is fine in an aggro RDW deck as a curve topper. your board gets wrathed turn 4 and you got an army in a can to build your board back up the next turn.
That's the point. That was along time ago. Cube is both faster than ever and often more combo oriented, and combos are also usually fast. Even red aggro, the deck this card is mostly played in, generally cant hit 5 lands to cast it before turn 6 or 7 unless it's flooded in which case they will lose anyways. Thank you for the response though, I'll try to find another cut and just keep a very close eye on SGC to see if it preforms better in the coming weeks as all of you on this thread seem to see something I don't in the card haha.
@BlackWaltz3
You seem very confused. I would bet money that you didn't even read my comments, just saw my initial question and wanted to yell at somebody, so you saw the linked cards in blue and decided to bring them up without even addressing the context. Don't do that, it just makes you look lazy.
You seem very confused. I would bet money that you didn't even read my comments, just saw my initial question and wanted to yell at somebody, so you saw the linked cards in blue and decided to bring them up without even addressing the context. Don't do that, it just makes you look lazy.
I think what he is implying is that if you are running seasons past you aren't running a typical cube. We can only give advice on the typical powered/unpowered cube because we don't know the ins and outs of your personal list. If your playgroup doesn't like SGC, or you think it sucks then don't play it. no need to bash the people you asked for feedback from. I thought his post gave pretty sound advice.
My cube is typical (and unpowered). The only thing you need for seasons past to be playable as an archetype are tutors and wraths, something which almost all cubes have. You ramp up quickly and stall until you can set up tutor+spells+seasons past=unlimited value. Usually people have used a counterspell and a land destruction spell (best being Vindicate or Strip Mine) to slowly lock the opponent out of the game. It's not the strongest archetype ever and has yet to go undefeated for us, but it is definitely solid and very playable.
His post addressed how good cards are in a vacuum without addressing the context, meaning that he didn't even read the post and was lazy. The man literally just recommended I add Glorybringer or Stormbreath Dragon to play before Wildfire. >_>
At no point have I ever, EVER denied the raw power of SGC, but my argument was that it didn't fit into any playable archetypes outside of RDW sideboards vs control and in U/R Opposition decks, which (in my opinion) felt very overly specific. I am not bashing him for his ability to restate facts like the damage output and number of bodies of a Siege-Gang Commander, but rather for his refusal to actually read before making his comment. If his parents payed their taxes so he could go to school and learn to read, then at least he should do them a favor and not waste their money next time.
I just realized how ranty this sounds. Sorry for anybody who just wants to talk about cube, it won't happen again.
SGC is so good that it's a tribal card that doesn't need tribal support. Only run a few gobbos, but I think SGC is flexible and powerful enough that he doesn't need to worry about his spot for a long time in my 450.
Regrowth effects even ones that have a ceiling of returning multiple cards to your hand do not an archetype make. For six mana you want guaranteed game changing impact (Wildfire, Upheaval, Catastrophe).
Also, I'm talking about how good the cards are in traditional cubes period. That is the forum we are in and the "vacuum" we approach our card evaluation from. I also did not make the recommendation you are suggesting I did. I listed reds 5 drops in tiers and didn't even mention wildfire so I'm not sure how you got that from what I said.
My breakdown of SGC's raw stats were meant to exemplify why it doesn't even matter that he might not be archetype specific-though he certainly is if you look at all of the ways people have mentioned he works with various cards that are the cornerstones of various archetypes.
"If his parents payed their taxes so he could go to school and learn to read, then at least he should do them a favor and not waste their money next time."
Welcome to the cube forum. This is called flaming/trolling. Don't do this.
I like SGC in any midrange deck that can cast it. Will play it as a curve topper in aggro if necessary, although my curves there tend to stop at 4.
Most of us support tokens to some degree or another, though, and this card is awesome there. I love that deck, and it can go in any of Mardu's colors plausibly. We play RW tokens most, but it also goes nicely with Braids in RB, and sometimes you get all three. It goes nicely in Opposition, although UR is probably the color combo this card goes into least. With Green, you can abuse the etb trigger pretty easily, although my RG decks usually look a lot different than that.
So it's got all kinds of usefulness in my cube and I can't see cutting it for a while.
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When it comes down to it, which expensive creatures you play is mostly a matter of personal preference. Every color has enough powerful 4,5,6, and 7 drops now that you can't fit them all in most cubes. I personally think that SGC is a more powerful card than the Thundermaw, but having more powerful cards isn't really what makes a cube better.
I agree. I think SGC is the most interesting and powerful 5 CMC card in red.
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Does this card still make the cut in cubes 360-450? I've had it in forever because people insist it's good, but we've cubed like 30+ times and this card has almost never made the cut in any mainboard because it costs way too much for RDW and decks like Jund midrange never really get the chance to take off.
What are your genuine thoughts?
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I'm not doubting your experience or the cards raw power, it just doesn't seem like a card anybody ever really wants in cube.
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The reason I mentioned Urabrask the hidden is because it can often come down on turn 3 in R/G midrange builds and just steamroll the opponent out of the game like no other card. Additionally, it is generally one of the enablers used in the Survival of the Fittest+Living Death deck, which comes together a surprisingly large amount of the time and with Urabrask can often win as early as turn 4, just fast enough to evade a boardwipe from the opponent, which is incredible. He's not always great, but when he is he has an extremely unique effect in cube and is very cool to both play and watch (but maybe not to play against haha). He's like the Malygos of MTG: If he survives a turn the opponent is probably in big trouble. The only thing that beats the feeling of Urabrask into Prime Time is killing your opponent from deck size with a Seasons Past (a very underrated card by the way, the card is amazing with the right support).
I mentioned Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker because he is one of the best on-color proactive cards you can play before Wildfire, the only red-heavy deck that usually wants late game. Often even better than Thundermaw Hellkite in Wildfire decks if you can prevent him from dying before you drop the Fire on turn 4-5. Also important to mention though that he is definitely worse than Chandra, Torch of Defiance in most scenarios, but he's still a card I am probably a ways away from cutting.
I know I have a bias toward featuring old creature staples, but I think Commander earns a spot in any cube just due to the number of productive interactions it has with other cards.
If you support tokens and many other interactions then it is likely very strong and deserves a slot, but people keep throwing around the term "360 Staple" as if it just means a card is good, but a real 360 staple is either insanely powerful or supports a deck or multiple archtypes like few other cards can. I agree that Siege-Gang Commander is quite powerful, especially with the right synergies, but nowadays it just isn't powerful enough or fast enough to warrant a thoughtless inclusion into any cube of any size uncontested.
I really want to know what others think on the subject, because I am planning on cutting Siege-Gang Commander in favor of Abbot of Keral-Keep, a card that plays great in RDW, R/U Tempo, R/U/w Spells-Matter and R/W Aggro. However, although cutting Siege-Gang Commander makes sense sense to me, it just feels wrong because it's one of the few cards left that I've played it since my cube's inception.
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definitely wouldn't cut for abbot of keral keep.
That's the point. That was along time ago. Cube is both faster than ever and often more combo oriented, and combos are also usually fast. Even red aggro, the deck this card is mostly played in, generally cant hit 5 lands to cast it before turn 6 or 7 unless it's flooded in which case they will lose anyways. Thank you for the response though, I'll try to find another cut and just keep a very close eye on SGC to see if it preforms better in the coming weeks as all of you on this thread seem to see something I don't in the card haha.
@BlackWaltz3
You seem very confused. I would bet money that you didn't even read my comments, just saw my initial question and wanted to yell at somebody, so you saw the linked cards in blue and decided to bring them up without even addressing the context. Don't do that, it just makes you look lazy.
I think what he is implying is that if you are running seasons past you aren't running a typical cube. We can only give advice on the typical powered/unpowered cube because we don't know the ins and outs of your personal list. If your playgroup doesn't like SGC, or you think it sucks then don't play it. no need to bash the people you asked for feedback from. I thought his post gave pretty sound advice.
His post addressed how good cards are in a vacuum without addressing the context, meaning that he didn't even read the post and was lazy. The man literally just recommended I add Glorybringer or Stormbreath Dragon to play before Wildfire. >_>
At no point have I ever, EVER denied the raw power of SGC, but my argument was that it didn't fit into any playable archetypes outside of RDW sideboards vs control and in U/R Opposition decks, which (in my opinion) felt very overly specific. I am not bashing him for his ability to restate facts like the damage output and number of bodies of a Siege-Gang Commander, but rather for his refusal to actually read before making his comment. If his parents payed their taxes so he could go to school and learn to read, then at least he should do them a favor and not waste their money next time.
I just realized how ranty this sounds. Sorry for anybody who just wants to talk about cube, it won't happen again.
Also, I'm talking about how good the cards are in traditional cubes period. That is the forum we are in and the "vacuum" we approach our card evaluation from. I also did not make the recommendation you are suggesting I did. I listed reds 5 drops in tiers and didn't even mention wildfire so I'm not sure how you got that from what I said.
My breakdown of SGC's raw stats were meant to exemplify why it doesn't even matter that he might not be archetype specific-though he certainly is if you look at all of the ways people have mentioned he works with various cards that are the cornerstones of various archetypes.
"If his parents payed their taxes so he could go to school and learn to read, then at least he should do them a favor and not waste their money next time."
Welcome to the cube forum. This is called flaming/trolling. Don't do this.
Most of us support tokens to some degree or another, though, and this card is awesome there. I love that deck, and it can go in any of Mardu's colors plausibly. We play RW tokens most, but it also goes nicely with Braids in RB, and sometimes you get all three. It goes nicely in Opposition, although UR is probably the color combo this card goes into least. With Green, you can abuse the etb trigger pretty easily, although my RG decks usually look a lot different than that.
So it's got all kinds of usefulness in my cube and I can't see cutting it for a while.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered