These cards are bad outside of their archetype, and isn't it a central tenet of cube building that cards must be good on their own or serve multiple purposes in order to be included? This is the equivalent of putting storm in the cube in my opinion. Not quite as bad, but in the same vein. A bunch of cards that are useless unless you are in the right deck.
How do you guys like Charmbreaker Devils as a finisher for a spell based deck? Provides card advantage that's basically guaranteed to be something sweet. Depending on the deck it can get you back burn to finish up, or burn/doom blades/bounce to clear the way for a pumped up attack.
Six mana for Charmbreakers is so awkward, especially as you get the spell back at random, which means it's better in a deck with fewer spells.
Nucklavee is just better and the more interesting card. I've had it in my cube for a while and it has been decent, but I also keep the power level of bigger creatures down, so there aren't things like Titans. Also, you sometimes randomly lock a person out with Nucklavee.
However, it's odd how Nucklavee makes you want to run something like Volcanic Hammer as an additional target to things like Chain Lightning.
If you got a spell on it's ETB as well as upkeep trigger I'd run it, but it fails the Terminate test and its effect isn't absolutely ridiculous. For six mana invested, I need a bigger return. Especially in red.
Also, Balefire Liege, which also happens to be decent in token decks (which for my cube are mostly Wr). I've included it, and it's been a phenomenal win-from-nowhere from time to time. It can threaten huge amounts of unblockable damage following an untap.
I've been thinking about this archetype as well as more and more of these types of cards get printed. However, I also agree with everyone who indicated that the individual cards themselves need to be of high quality and not be useless if this deck doesn't come together. So, Snapcaster Mage, Isochron Scepter, perhaps Augur of Bolas are probably fine but a card like Delver of Secrets even tabled in Innistrad draft - it needs a niche deck.
I'm keeping my eye on the archetype, but it should basically just come together on its own. Of course, it's likely that it could get close and just need a couple of narrow cards to push it over the line, and that's fine - we do this with reanimator. But I don't think we're there yet.
As I have a little larger cube I want to try something like this out with focus in red. My playgroup think red is a bit boring and one-sided, so I'll try to add some of these card that interact a bit more like Chandra's Spitfire, Kiln Fiend, Guttersnipe and Nivmagus Elemental (opened one in foil as well)...
I like the archetype, and I think it would be fun ...but I think it still needs more support before it'll be viable.
Are these cards good in any other deck? I keep feeling like this is similar to putting storm in a cube. Maybe it can work, but is it worth putting a bunch of bad cards that don't work in any other deck into your cube to support it?
Are these cards good in any other deck? I keep feeling like this is similar to putting storm in a cube. Maybe it can work, but is it worth putting a bunch of bad cards that don't work in any other deck into your cube to support it?
Not unless there's enough of a critical mass to make it work. Similar to something like Exhume. Which I don't think there is for this particular archetype ...yet.
The point is, rituals and storm spells only go in storm decks. Instants and Sorceries still go in every deck, it's only Guttersnipe cards that are narrow.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
The point is, rituals and storm spells only go in storm decks. Instants and Sorceries still go in every deck, it's only Guttersnipe cards that are narrow.
Yup. I get it. Some cards are powerful enough despite being narrow to include in the cube, so long as there's a successful archetype that can regularly use them. I do that now with some of the lesser reanimation spells, that are exclusive to that one decktype. It may be worth including a few cards like Delver to support an archetype that would be really good when you use those narrow cards.
The point of this thread was to find out if a critical mass of those types of effects exist, and if it would be worthwhile to include them together to push a new archetype. It looks like the answer is no, for now.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
There's still hope. We still have Sinker to look forward to in the near future, which may give us some good playables to get at least close to critical mass.
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W Jazal Goldmane WR Daretti, Scrap Savant R B Ghoulcaller Gisa BUG Prime Speaker ZeganaUG UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UGBG Nath, of the Gilt-Leaf BG RG Ruric Thar, the Unbowed RGUB Dragonlord Silumgar UB UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBGWUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRGBRG Prossh, Skyrider of Kher BRG WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius WUBUBR Thraximundar UBR URG Yasova Dragonclaw URGWUR Zedruu, the Greathearted WUR WBG Daghatar the Adamant WBGWUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
Melek is so clunky at 6 mana though, I feel like even in the Izzet deck he's not great. At least Cyclops plays decent defense and isn't bad on offense as an extra Kiln Fiend that has a higher toughness.
I mean at 4 toughness I can see playing this dude in America, RuG, and Grixis decks as he can soak up damage while putting out some when you use removal.
The problem is the casting cost though. The reason Kiln Fiend is so good (yeah, I think it's great) is that it's good in Rx aggro and not only a single deck archetype.
I've found Kiln Fiend and generally the "Spells Matters" cards to be better in Rakdos Aggro than in Izzet. A turn two Kiln Fiend, Followed by a burn, discard or removal spell sets the opponent on a serious clock.
This guy regularly deals 7 damage in turn 3 to un-careful opponents.
If you haven't tried this card yet, I seriously urge you to try it out.
I've found Kiln Fiend and generally the "Spells Matters" cards to be better in Rakdos Aggro than in Izzet. A turn two Kiln Fiend, Followed by a burn, discard or removal spell sets the opponent on a serious clock.
Is Kiln Fiend poor in blue decks because your blue spells are more often reactive, i.e. you're not casting them before your combat step?
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Is Kiln Fiend poor in blue decks because your blue spells are more often reactive, i.e. you're not casting them before your combat step?
Counterspells are certainly not ideal with the power pumpers, but cheap draw/filtering is probably the best type of spell with these cards, and bounce is on par with pump and burn.
Young pyromanver is great rven if you only get 1 token so he doesnt need to be in a super dedicated deck, kiln fiend getting free stats can also be really advantageous with only 1 activation. This is why i like them, unlike something like delver or talrand 1 activation gives great value even if its not the first turn they are out. I also like cheap must answer creatures because i play a lot of multiplayer and stall wars are lame.
L2 Judge
The 4 toughness really hurts it, as well as it's utter failure of the vindicate test
Nucklavee is just better and the more interesting card. I've had it in my cube for a while and it has been decent, but I also keep the power level of bigger creatures down, so there aren't things like Titans. Also, you sometimes randomly lock a person out with Nucklavee.
However, it's odd how Nucklavee makes you want to run something like Volcanic Hammer as an additional target to things like Chain Lightning.
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I'm keeping my eye on the archetype, but it should basically just come together on its own. Of course, it's likely that it could get close and just need a couple of narrow cards to push it over the line, and that's fine - we do this with reanimator. But I don't think we're there yet.
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This would be that niche deck, IMO.
I like the archetype, and I think it would be fun ...but I think it still needs more support before it'll be viable.
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Are these cards good in any other deck? I keep feeling like this is similar to putting storm in a cube. Maybe it can work, but is it worth putting a bunch of bad cards that don't work in any other deck into your cube to support it?
L2 Judge
Not unless there's enough of a critical mass to make it work. Similar to something like Exhume. Which I don't think there is for this particular archetype ...yet.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
Yup. I get it. Some cards are powerful enough despite being narrow to include in the cube, so long as there's a successful archetype that can regularly use them. I do that now with some of the lesser reanimation spells, that are exclusive to that one decktype. It may be worth including a few cards like Delver to support an archetype that would be really good when you use those narrow cards.
The point of this thread was to find out if a critical mass of those types of effects exist, and if it would be worthwhile to include them together to push a new archetype. It looks like the answer is no, for now.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
W Jazal Goldmane W R Daretti, Scrap Savant R
B Ghoulcaller Gisa B UG Prime Speaker ZeganaUG
UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG BG Nath, of the Gilt-Leaf BG
RG Ruric Thar, the Unbowed RG UB Dragonlord Silumgar UB
UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG
WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG BRG Prossh, Skyrider of Kher BRG
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius WUB UBR Thraximundar UBR
URG Yasova Dragonclaw URG WUR Zedruu, the Greathearted WUR
WBG Daghatar the Adamant WBG WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
I will run Chandra's Spitfire, Kiln Fiend, Guttersnipe and new Young Pyromancer.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I mean at 4 toughness I can see playing this dude in America, RuG, and Grixis decks as he can soak up damage while putting out some when you use removal.
I've found Kiln Fiend and generally the "Spells Matters" cards to be better in Rakdos Aggro than in Izzet. A turn two Kiln Fiend, Followed by a burn, discard or removal spell sets the opponent on a serious clock.
This guy regularly deals 7 damage in turn 3 to un-careful opponents.
If you haven't tried this card yet, I seriously urge you to try it out.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
Is Kiln Fiend poor in blue decks because your blue spells are more often reactive, i.e. you're not casting them before your combat step?
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Counterspells are certainly not ideal with the power pumpers, but cheap draw/filtering is probably the best type of spell with these cards, and bounce is on par with pump and burn.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979