Tempted to do a spells matter red section. Might give red more flavour other than just the swing into the red zone.dec. Warry about how good it would be though.
I've been thinking more about it too. I don't like Kiln Fiend, but I could see Talrand, Pyromancer and Guttersnipe being pretty good. Augur of Bolas might not be too awful in a deck designed to take advantage of those kinds of cards, and neither would Delver of Secrets.
I refuse to believe that a 2/1 with a 1/1 next turn is "great"
That's actually pretty good. That's 3 power for two mana on two bodies. He hasn't worked well in testing for us so far, but one activation makes him solid; two or more is superb value. He will get a lot more play time in my cube before I decide for sure either way though.
Guttersnipe doesn't look good on paper, but it's been very good for us. It just works SO well with all your burn spells. I was skeptic, but it I feel this card earned its spot in my cube.
Where does Gut Shot fit into this discussion? I have thought about running this card because it's randomly good (awful on paper but it would play out well in numerous situations). I ask this because A) it's free, B) it increases spell composition, and C) it's not dead on it's own (even mono white could run it)
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Where does Gut Shot fit into this discussion? I have thought about running this card because it's randomly good (awful on paper but it would play out well in numerous situations). I ask this because A) it's free, B) it increases spell composition, and C) it's not dead on it's own (even mono white could run it)
I actually tried it out a while back, it wasn't terrible and I actually like being able to kill mana dork and utility creatures while still curving out. Nobody picked it however so I decided to cut it, but I actually think it deserves another run. You'd be surprised how useful a free damage can be.
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I actually tried it out a while back, it wasn't terrible and I actually like being able to kill mana dork and utility creatures while still curving out. Nobody picked it however so I decided to cut it, but I actually think it deserves another run. You'd be surprised how useful a free damage can be.
This is our experience too. It was relevant surprisingly often, and much better than it appears on paper, but didn't ultimately make the cut at 360. I would probably reconsider it if I were to add these other cards in.
I'm very interested in this archetype. I used to run Guttersnipe and cut it before I posted my list on the forums. It was pretty good. I never considered Gut Shot. It seems like it would be very efficient at killing that turn 1 x/1.
A few Cubetutor drafts have got me thinking about this archetype as well. Just like pox, three to four cards (at least for small cubes) is all it really needs since the cube is laden with ridiculous instants and sorceries already.
By moving Torch Fiend or Hellspark Elemental for Young Pyromancer, Blistering Firecat for Guttersnipe and Dungeon Geists for Talrand I think I'm good to go. Question is, which decks are going to experience a power drop due to these changes, and, are these power drops acceptable for the price of supporting a new archetype...
Question is, which decks are going to experience a power drop due to these changes, and, are these power drops acceptable for the price of supporting a new archetype...
My question became: "does simply adding in 3 cards actually create a new archetype?" ...I don't think it does. I'm going to hold off on the 'Snipe and Talrand until I can get a critical mass together. The Pyromancer seems to be good enough even with a couple of spells behind it, and being 2cc is critical for pulling this off.
Just wanted to report that Guttersnipe did some amazing work in the latest draft, it was in a Rw burn deck and was lethal several times. We added in Young Pyromancer and Guttersnipe with the M14 update. The Pyromancer hasn't seen play yet so nothing to report so far.
Edit: I think adding 2 or 3 cards can make or break an archetype, as long as there are enough cards already in the cube that work well with them.
It can make or break it (cutting 3 reanimation spells would ruin the archetype), but three lone cards won't define an entire deck. If I get a Talrand in my first pack, I'm not going to go all in on spells and ignore creatures, because I know that archetype isn't deep enough to support itself.
Yeah, three spells does not a deck make. You would need to see and draft most or all of them. I think I would want five or six strong pieces and plenty of playables. We have the latter (any spells really) but not the former. I'm also not entirely convinced by Talrand, who a) definitely needs triggering the turn he is played, and b) has ridiculous competition at his CMC (and exact mana cost actually).
These are on my radar going forwards though. Young Pyromancer is good enough that it doesn't need all the support though, it can go in anyhow.
Has anyone been running this in their cube? Guttersnipe, Young Pyromancer, Talrand, Delver, Augur of Bolas? How has it played out? I've found that most of the UR decks that are drafted in my cube end up being aggro or tempo decks that these cards probably would fit into...
I'm adding then in my update for next Thursday's draft, so I'll definitely update here how it goes. I'm also adding in Gut Shot and I'm bringing back Yawgmoth's Will, a card that I can definitely see being fun with Young Pyromancer on the board.
EDIT: Here are the relevant changes for this archetype, full details available in my cube thread.
Blue
-Jace, Memory Adept - Memory Adept has been on the edge for a while. He closes the game like nothing else, but he does almost nothing when you're behind, and while he's certainly powerful, he creates uninteresting games. I'm looking to foster fun, and I haven't seen Jace involved in a lot of games that were fun, they were just games that ended.
-Dungeon Geists - Perfectly good card that can get swapped out for Talrand pretty easily.
-Opposition - It's a great card in a very small subset of decks, and I haven't seen it do much lately. It also actively doesn't go with the spells matter theme. Like Pox, this is a card that would definitely be back some day.
-Deep Analysis - It would probably play well in spells matter, but I doubt it would make the cut most of the time, and I'm happy to let it sit on the side for a while.
+Time Spiral
+Talrand, Sky Summoner
+Augur of Bolas
+Delver of Secrets - Not the best in spells matter, but still probably good, and with the decent blue tempo support still around, I think there might actually be enough space to try him. We've never given him a shot in cube and some cubers love him, while others hate him. I figure it's worth seeing what happens.
Black
-Part of the pox package
+Yawgmoth's Will - Seems fun with Talrand/Guttersnipe/Young Pyromancer
Red
-Hellspark Elemental - I know he's efficient, but I'm looking to give red more cards that stick around so the deck can actually develop a board presence. Straight legacy style burn isn't quite good enough here.
-Reckless Charge
In a larger cube there isn't a critical mass of these guys yet (perhaps one or two more are needed)... but I feel that in a smaller list these guys are enough (of course I'd like one or two more as well), perhaps not to make it a full-blown archetype, but enough to add more depth and versatility to counterburn decks. I ran counterburn during the last draft and I couldn't help but think how much more awesome the deck would have been if Hellspark was Young Pyromancer and Dungeon Geists was Talrand.
In a larger cube there isn't a critical mass of these guys yet (perhaps one or two more are needed)... but I feel that in a smaller list these guys are enough (of course I'd like one or two more as well), perhaps not to make it a full-blown archetype, but enough to add more depth and versatility to counterburn decks. I ran counterburn during the last draft and I couldn't help but think how much more awesome the deck would have been if Hellspark was Young Pyromancer and Dungeon Geists was Talrand.
I'm going to be adding Young Pyromancer into my cube in place of something. Maybe Kargan Dragonlord? I currently support Splinter Twin/Kiki-Jiki Combo in my cube and that deck often drafts as a UR Spells Matter so it'll be nice to see it get an aggressive card like Young Pyromancer.
I don't think you run nearly enough cantrips and cheap burn spells to make most of these new cards good. I would also add 2 or 3 cantrips in Blue.
Agreed. I'd look at G.Probe, Portent, and Serum Visions for starters if anyone wants to really increase relevant blue cantrips for this archetype. Gush and Frantic Search are also optional spells I'd run (outside of this archtype too) that boost the deck.
@DeepAnalysis:
I'm not sure I'd cut this card. I can see those other recommendations for interactive reasons and needing 'something' to trim, but Analysis is value on its own. The flashback of that card is incredibly underrated.
@Red:
I would trim from the mid-level of 3cc and up IMO. You can cut away at higher costing things.
A particular configuration, and I admit this is polarizing, would be to cut/swap land destruction for 'spells matter' material. I like the standard stone rain / molten rain / pillage / avalanche rider setup users have in cubes but could probably live without them if I wanted to push 'spells matter'. I'm not saying 1 is better than the other -- I'm suggesting you have a card package that could free up slots. I think a 'spells matter' subtheme wouldn't use LD in the first place
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I have been thinking about cutting some of the LD from Red for both a Kiki package and the red side of Spells matter. I am wondering how much Talrand really matters though.
I don't advocate cutting too much LD from red. It reeeeeeaallly needs that LD to be able to beat a lot of decks. And if your aggro isn't good, your cube metagame collapses into counterspells, draw spells, and bombs.
I did add both Pyromancer and Snipe. I ended up cutting Forked Bolt (its speed made me unhappy to run it even in MonoR) and Hell's Thunder, which ended up often being 3 mana for no gain.
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I could also see adding some phyrexian mana 1 drops like Gut Shot, Gitaxian Probe, etc.
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That's actually pretty good. That's 3 power for two mana on two bodies. He hasn't worked well in testing for us so far, but one activation makes him solid; two or more is superb value. He will get a lot more play time in my cube before I decide for sure either way though.
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I actually tried it out a while back, it wasn't terrible and I actually like being able to kill mana dork and utility creatures while still curving out. Nobody picked it however so I decided to cut it, but I actually think it deserves another run. You'd be surprised how useful a free damage can be.
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This is our experience too. It was relevant surprisingly often, and much better than it appears on paper, but didn't ultimately make the cut at 360. I would probably reconsider it if I were to add these other cards in.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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By moving Torch Fiend or Hellspark Elemental for Young Pyromancer, Blistering Firecat for Guttersnipe and Dungeon Geists for Talrand I think I'm good to go. Question is, which decks are going to experience a power drop due to these changes, and, are these power drops acceptable for the price of supporting a new archetype...
My question became: "does simply adding in 3 cards actually create a new archetype?" ...I don't think it does. I'm going to hold off on the 'Snipe and Talrand until I can get a critical mass together. The Pyromancer seems to be good enough even with a couple of spells behind it, and being 2cc is critical for pulling this off.
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Edit: I think adding 2 or 3 cards can make or break an archetype, as long as there are enough cards already in the cube that work well with them.
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These are on my radar going forwards though. Young Pyromancer is good enough that it doesn't need all the support though, it can go in anyhow.
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EDIT: Here are the relevant changes for this archetype, full details available in my cube thread.
Blue
-Jace, Memory Adept - Memory Adept has been on the edge for a while. He closes the game like nothing else, but he does almost nothing when you're behind, and while he's certainly powerful, he creates uninteresting games. I'm looking to foster fun, and I haven't seen Jace involved in a lot of games that were fun, they were just games that ended.
-Dungeon Geists - Perfectly good card that can get swapped out for Talrand pretty easily.
-Opposition - It's a great card in a very small subset of decks, and I haven't seen it do much lately. It also actively doesn't go with the spells matter theme. Like Pox, this is a card that would definitely be back some day.
-Deep Analysis - It would probably play well in spells matter, but I doubt it would make the cut most of the time, and I'm happy to let it sit on the side for a while.
+Time Spiral
+Talrand, Sky Summoner
+Augur of Bolas
+Delver of Secrets - Not the best in spells matter, but still probably good, and with the decent blue tempo support still around, I think there might actually be enough space to try him. We've never given him a shot in cube and some cubers love him, while others hate him. I figure it's worth seeing what happens.
Black
-Part of the pox package
+Yawgmoth's Will - Seems fun with Talrand/Guttersnipe/Young Pyromancer
Red
-Hellspark Elemental - I know he's efficient, but I'm looking to give red more cards that stick around so the deck can actually develop a board presence. Straight legacy style burn isn't quite good enough here.
-Reckless Charge
+Guttersnipe
+Gut Shot
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Looks pretty sweet!
And you got Young Pyromancer (Hellspark), Guttersnipe (Fireblast) and Talrand (Geists)! I guess I should update my Cubetutor list :D.
Agreed. I'd look at G.Probe, Portent, and Serum Visions for starters if anyone wants to really increase relevant blue cantrips for this archetype. Gush and Frantic Search are also optional spells I'd run (outside of this archtype too) that boost the deck.
@DeepAnalysis:
I'm not sure I'd cut this card. I can see those other recommendations for interactive reasons and needing 'something' to trim, but Analysis is value on its own. The flashback of that card is incredibly underrated.
@Red:
I would trim from the mid-level of 3cc and up IMO. You can cut away at higher costing things.
A particular configuration, and I admit this is polarizing, would be to cut/swap land destruction for 'spells matter' material. I like the standard stone rain / molten rain / pillage / avalanche rider setup users have in cubes but could probably live without them if I wanted to push 'spells matter'. I'm not saying 1 is better than the other -- I'm suggesting you have a card package that could free up slots. I think a 'spells matter' subtheme wouldn't use LD in the first place
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