Just wondering what are people's opinion on cataclysm in cube. I have been using it almost as a second Armageddon style card that can be abused if timed right. I do not currently have ravages of warsince I don't run proxies.
So far it has lead to some blow outs but can def have drawbacks. The nicest part is that it forces planeswalkers to be sacrificed.
The biggest blowouts I've seen with this card are when someone has the perfect draw into it, almost always using a Mox and a pretty awesome three drop (or four drop if they want to wait a turn).
Thing is, there is so much competition at good.creature.slot that it's hard to get a powerful creature down that will overpower whatever your opponent places down.
When I played it, it seemed like if my opponent went first, the card was pretty terrible. Their 4 drop or 5 drop would always be better than whatever creature I put down and it just became a completely dead card. I ended up using it as a pseudo-wrath and trying to get ahead on card advantage, but couldn't get there usually.
If my opponent went second it was much better, but most colors generally have better access to 3/4/5 drops than white does, which means you're kind of already at a disadvantage. The benefit is you can run this in Balance decks, which is nice because you'll want to stock up on enchantments and artifacts.
We're not playing the card at 720, but I think I would play it at 900.
I was under the impression that this was considered one of white's top cards - though from eidolon's comments, I may be mistaken.
In aggro, you use it as another Armageddon effect, ideally leaving you with a position like Chrome Mox, Soltari Priest, Plains to their one land.
In control, you use it as a pseudo Wrath of God that leaves your fatty versus a single insignificant creature, while setting back mana to the point where it's hard for them to overcome your fatty.
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Cataclysm is a very inconsistent card and, whilst you can try to build and play around it into a favourable position, it often feels that it depends on luck more than skill to be effective.
Having said that, I have recently put it back into my 470 cube because it lead to some interesting plays in a friend's cube recently.
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Agreed with the others - so many wonderful options in this slot that it's hard to make a case for it.
That said, I will someday resolve this with It That Betrays on the table as the creature I'm keeping. Oh yes I will.
I got blown out by it this weekend. I was a B/G ramp/control deck and I was playing a Boros deck he cam out fast and I thought I had stablized when he played a Mirran Crusader and had a mishras factory as his only other threat. he smashed and I bolted the factory setting up my flashed back chainers edict next turn. after combat he tapped 4 and cast the Cataclysm that killed my Garruk, and 5 lands. So the board was me with a Dayou and him with a Sacred Foundry and a Mirran Crusader.
Cataclysm is a very misunderstood card that also happens to be VERY good in the White aggro archetype. It is also a card that removes planeswalkers, which is rare in white outside of O Ring. Being able to stunt a control deck's development while still applying pressure is a very good effect for an aggressive deck, and I don't think people play to the card's strength very often. Resources for an aggressive deck don't often need to hit a critical mass of 5-6 mana, so knocking out 3 lands while still closing the game with your 1-2 lands afterwards can be pretty darn good.
It is a common post-Cataclysm scenario to have a 2-3 drop creature, a land, and a piece of equipment in play to your opponent's single land and possibly a creature. Being able to knock out a planeswalker with it is also really key, even moreso when it is something cramping your attacking style like Gideon Jura!
I've definitely just caused a scoop by playing t1 2/2, t2 Bonesplitter, t3 Oring your 3-drop, t4 Cataclysm.
Just be sure you know the Oracle text if you have a foreign one...my Korean one gets more questions than any other card in my Cube. I recently got an English one just so I can show it to people!
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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The last time I saw this card in action, I played it in a WB aggro deck. I won every game in which I drew Cataclysm. Due to casting Cataclysm, that is. I think it is pretty strong in an aggro deck that has evasive creatures, artifacts (mostly equipments) and enchantments (both Bitterblossom and Curse of Shallow Graves were in the deck that I mentioned). There are some very strong planeswalkers that stabilize the game against aggro in cube and Cataclysm destroys them in addition to the opponent's mana base.
Of course you should try it; the card is awesome and really isn't that difficult to set up to put your opponent in a difficult spot. One of the main strengths is that it is good AGAINST plainswalkers, which is very different than almost all of the other mass-removal cards. Add onto that being able to keep land/dude/equipment, and you have a winner at a mana cost that certainly is very competitive. There are lots of good permutations of permanents to keep, ESPECIALLY now that we have enchantment creatures you can keep in addition to you 'creature' selection!
And, you get to explain what the card does endlessly!
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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There are a lot of things going against cataclysm. While taking out blockers, dismantling flooded boards, and being played in decks that are only using one finisher at a time is good, Cataclysm tends to allow your opponent too much leniency. Sure, I'm taking out their whole army, but that guy wearing the sword will still connect/the titan will still attack/moat is still moat/etc. Cataclysm also costs 4, a spot that white is certainly not lacking to find cards for. In multiplayer cubes Cataclysm gains a lot more ground as the longer games allow it to be more of a blowout, but I find that you're left in a bad spot too often for cataclysm to be worth running.
I was just thinking about this card earlier this morning, was considering adding it. I'd like to ask as well: what sort of deck does it shine in? More importantly, where is it weak? Do you need to go out of your way to support it?
I think this is a great card. The effect is powerful but you have to put some effort into maximizing it, which is a card design I try to include a lot of.
I like it best in aggressive decks, but it also functions pretty well as an equalizer when you you are behind on the board (but still have a decent threat in play). Resets token armies which is cool. I'd imagine this card is even better with walkers, but even without them I still think it does a lot of work.
Best use I have found is in resource denial type strategies. It's a solid splash in Pox decks which usually run really cheap and recurring threats. Sac your gravecrawler, keep your other zombie and a swamp, recast crawler next turn (bonus points if you have bitterblossum). Great with persist/undying dudes obviously (like all sac outlets). The fact that you can keep a piece of equipment also plays well into aggressive strategies as mentioned in a previous post.
It's not better than Armageddon clearly (few cards are), but it's slightly less narrow. It plays a bit like a less broken balance I guess.
While I don't think that Cataclysm is more powerful than Armageddon, I certainly like it more than the latter. It is more situational and harder to use to your advantage, but that also makes it more interesting. It also deals with two big problems for aggressive decks: Token swarms and planeswalkers. Nothing feels better than casting Cataclysm after the opponent tapped out for a strong planeswalker.
I've come to the (admittedly somewhat strange) decision to remove the two Armageddons from my cube in favor of Balance and Cataclysm. While this may be an odd move in power level (Balance is better than Geddon, Cataclysm is worse), I think that it will result in more interesting gameplay. The list of decks that wanted Armageddons was fairly straightforward, requiring little setup and frequently ending the game upon resolution. I figure that replacing them with a more surgical but no less powerful set of effects will lead to more interesting gameplay while supporting decks that may not have considered these effects before.
I fully support removing one Armageddon for Cataclysm for the reason you stated. It has a ton of play to it.
Balance though? That's just universally good in everything. The times you don't gain from casting balance are times you are winning anyway. And every single deck with white mana can play it and is better for doing so simply because this card is reset button anytime you need it. It's just a broken card that adds nothing but raw power to the cube. If interesting game play is what you are after, IMO Balance is not going to bring that.
Geddon at least requires a specific deck, and arguably is one of the best reasons to draft something aggressive. Even in my lower powered environment, I probably wouldn't take out Armageddon simply because it fills a vital niche. I like that it's a constant threat to all the durdling (rampant with my players).
FWIW, running one Armageddon and one Cataclysm has been very good for me. I do not miss balance.
I don't think Balance is as always-good as you're making it out to be. I've seen balances be awkward often, since you're not always going to want to/be able to reset certain parts of the balance. Like, is the wrath part of Balance that great if you have to discard 5 cards as well? Or is the discarding as good if you have to blow up a bunch of lands? These questions are answered differently in different situations and they can be great, but Balance really does require a little bit of work in certain spots to turn it into the top-tier card it is. There are times it's mindless card advantage across the board, but I wouldn't say that these times are universal in execution.
I don't think Balance is as always-good as you're making it out to be. I've seen balances be awkward often, since you're not always going to want to/be able to reset certain parts of the balance. Like, is the wrath part of Balance that great if you have to discard 5 cards as well? Or is the discarding as good if you have to blow up a bunch of lands? These questions are answered differently in different situations and they can be great, but Balance really does require a little bit of work in certain spots to turn it into the top-tier card it is. There are times it's mindless card advantage across the board, but I wouldn't say that these times are universal in execution.
Maybe not, but it still helps bad decks more than I want from a 1W sorcery. Throw it in any durdle deck and it basically gives you a super cheap way to undo any board advantage your opponent has built. And yes, if you are completely behind on the board and about to die, discarding 5 cards is well worth it to basically reset the game to we both have 5 lands and 1 card.
Put any energy into building around Balance and it's straight up degenerate.
I know this discussion doesn't belong in the Cataclysm thread. But it was specifically in response to the post above regarding adding additional play to the cube. Cataclysm does that in spades, Balance not so much IMO.
So far it has lead to some blow outs but can def have drawbacks. The nicest part is that it forces planeswalkers to be sacrificed.
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Thing is, there is so much competition at good.creature.slot that it's hard to get a powerful creature down that will overpower whatever your opponent places down.
When I played it, it seemed like if my opponent went first, the card was pretty terrible. Their 4 drop or 5 drop would always be better than whatever creature I put down and it just became a completely dead card. I ended up using it as a pseudo-wrath and trying to get ahead on card advantage, but couldn't get there usually.
If my opponent went second it was much better, but most colors generally have better access to 3/4/5 drops than white does, which means you're kind of already at a disadvantage. The benefit is you can run this in Balance decks, which is nice because you'll want to stock up on enchantments and artifacts.
We're not playing the card at 720, but I think I would play it at 900.
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In aggro, you use it as another Armageddon effect, ideally leaving you with a position like Chrome Mox, Soltari Priest, Plains to their one land.
In control, you use it as a pseudo Wrath of God that leaves your fatty versus a single insignificant creature, while setting back mana to the point where it's hard for them to overcome your fatty.
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Having said that, I have recently put it back into my 470 cube because it lead to some interesting plays in a friend's cube recently.
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Agreed with the others - so many wonderful options in this slot that it's hard to make a case for it.
That said, I will someday resolve this with It That Betrays on the table as the creature I'm keeping. Oh yes I will.
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It is a common post-Cataclysm scenario to have a 2-3 drop creature, a land, and a piece of equipment in play to your opponent's single land and possibly a creature. Being able to knock out a planeswalker with it is also really key, even moreso when it is something cramping your attacking style like Gideon Jura!
I've definitely just caused a scoop by playing t1 2/2, t2 Bonesplitter, t3 Oring your 3-drop, t4 Cataclysm.
Just be sure you know the Oracle text if you have a foreign one...my Korean one gets more questions than any other card in my Cube. I recently got an English one just so I can show it to people!
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Even then, a lot has to go right, and you have to have very few planeswalkers in your deck to want to play this thing.
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I like it best in aggressive decks, but it also functions pretty well as an equalizer when you you are behind on the board (but still have a decent threat in play). Resets token armies which is cool. I'd imagine this card is even better with walkers, but even without them I still think it does a lot of work.
Best use I have found is in resource denial type strategies. It's a solid splash in Pox decks which usually run really cheap and recurring threats. Sac your gravecrawler, keep your other zombie and a swamp, recast crawler next turn (bonus points if you have bitterblossum). Great with persist/undying dudes obviously (like all sac outlets). The fact that you can keep a piece of equipment also plays well into aggressive strategies as mentioned in a previous post.
It's not better than Armageddon clearly (few cards are), but it's slightly less narrow. It plays a bit like a less broken balance I guess.
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Balance though? That's just universally good in everything. The times you don't gain from casting balance are times you are winning anyway. And every single deck with white mana can play it and is better for doing so simply because this card is reset button anytime you need it. It's just a broken card that adds nothing but raw power to the cube. If interesting game play is what you are after, IMO Balance is not going to bring that.
Geddon at least requires a specific deck, and arguably is one of the best reasons to draft something aggressive. Even in my lower powered environment, I probably wouldn't take out Armageddon simply because it fills a vital niche. I like that it's a constant threat to all the durdling (rampant with my players).
FWIW, running one Armageddon and one Cataclysm has been very good for me. I do not miss balance.
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Maybe not, but it still helps bad decks more than I want from a 1W sorcery. Throw it in any durdle deck and it basically gives you a super cheap way to undo any board advantage your opponent has built. And yes, if you are completely behind on the board and about to die, discarding 5 cards is well worth it to basically reset the game to we both have 5 lands and 1 card.
Put any energy into building around Balance and it's straight up degenerate.
I know this discussion doesn't belong in the Cataclysm thread. But it was specifically in response to the post above regarding adding additional play to the cube. Cataclysm does that in spades, Balance not so much IMO.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/