I think that the vast majority of the time that you're deckbuilding, if you decide that Sakura-Tribe Elder is going in your deck, the primary reason is because you are willing to invest 1G and a card to ramp your mana by one. Yes, its marginal value is what makes it superior to Rampant Growth, but they both do the primary job equally well. Because, if you're just playing the STE for its marginal value, then you're paying 1G for a 1/1 and that's horrible.
This is very well articulated. I agree with it entirely.
And like Rexx, I'm in the group that doesn't play see Mogg Fanatic as that amazing.
EDIT: Just realized I'm the guy who created the Mogg Fanatic thread that turned into pretty much this same argument. Apparently I stir up stupid arguments. Genuinely sorry about that
I think that the vast majority of the time that you're deckbuilding, if you decide that Sakura-Tribe Elder is going in your deck, the primary reason is because you are willing to invest 1G and a card to ramp your mana by one. Yes, its marginal value is what makes it superior to Rampant Growth, but they both do the primary job equally well. Because, if you're just playing the STE for its marginal value, then you're paying 1G for a 1/1 and that's horrible. It is conceivable that your deck has plenty of mana ramp spells already and you decide to cut one of them, and Growth might be the worst, but I think those situations don't happen that often...in my ramp decks I usually want all the ramp spells I draft (but this may be my mistake...I don't routinely 3-0 drafts with my ramp decks :tongue:)
I agree that I wouldn't run STE in a deck where I didn't think Rampant Growth would be a useful effect (this is the reason to leave it out of aggro). This is not to say I would only run STE in decks where I would maindeck Rampant Growth. Similarly, I probably wouldn't run Uktabi Orangutan if I didn't think a shatter effect was ever going to be useful. That doesn't mean I'd run green shatter in its stead. I tend to run STE because I know it will give me value, even if I don't always know where the value will come from at the time of deckbuilding.
I agree that I wouldn't run STE in a deck where I didn't think Rampant Growth would be a useful effect. This is not to say I would only run STE in decks where I would maindeck Rampant Growth. Similarly, I probably wouldn't run Uktabi Orangutan if I didn't think a shatter effect was ever going to be useful. That doesn't mean I'd run green shatter in its stead.
That's a completely irrelevant comparison, because you actually get to keep the Uktabi Orangutan where you don't with Shatter.
That's a completely irrelevant comparison, because you actually get to keep the Uktabi Orangutan where you don't with Shatter.
Well I have never attacked with Rampant Growth. Sure, the effect might not come until after the sac, but if you prefer I'll compare Shatter to Hearth Kami, only if Hearth Kami cost nothing to sac.
EDIT: Just realized I'm the guy who created the Mogg Fanatic thread that turned into pretty much this same argument. Apparently I stir up stupid arguments. Genuinely sorry about that
Just to clear, I do not find the question of STE or Mogg Fanatic silly at all. I think they are both borderline 360 cards that need to be examined. I have found some of the points leveled at them silly however. For example, if STE is playing like a Rampant Growth 95% of the time in your cube, cut him. But to say that he is comparable to Rampant Growth in most cubes is just not true in my experience, for many, many reasons.
Also, it occurs to me that maybe you just have a cube, or a group play-style where having a 1/1 around isn't that valuable.
Well I have never attacked with Rampant Growth. Sure, the effect might not come until after the sac, but if you prefer I'll compare Shatter to Heath Kami, only if Heath Kami cost nothing to sac.
Right, but if you cast Uktabi Orangutan, you get both effects, the dude AND the shatter. STE forces you to choose, and the primary means is Rampant Growth. If I could get a cross between Sylvan Ranger and STE that put the land into play AND gave me the dude, of course I'd play it. The problem is I don't get my dude unless I don't get my ramp, and that's where the comparison to sex monkeys falls apart.
The ideal Hearth kami comparison where kami costs nothing to sacrifice is an excellent one. I'd play the hell out of a 2/1 STE. Where do I sign up for that?
The ideal Hearth kami comparison where kami costs nothing to sacrifice is an excellent one. I'd play the hell out of a 2/1 STE. Where do I sign up for that?
But you wouldn't play Shatter, right? So let's stop calling STE Rampant Growth in any sense, and discuss its actual pros and cons. I agree that there is a high bar for what a 1/1 has to do in order to be playable at two mana, but Rampant Growth is a really useful effect. So useful that it is almost cubeable on its own at two mana, so even a small amount of value tacked on (and for us, an often temporary 1/1 is a small but significant amount of value) makes it easily and playable and widely played.
But you wouldn't play Shatter, right? So let's stop calling STE Rampant Growth in any sense, and discuss its actual pros and cons. I agree that there is a high bar for what a 1/1 has to do in order to be playable at two mana, but Rampant Growth is a really useful effect. So useful that it is almost cubeable on its own at two mana, so even a small amount of value tacked on (and for us, an often temporary 1/1 is a small but significant amount of value) makes it easily and playable and widely played.
No I wouldn't play shatter, but I also wouldn't play a 1/1 Hearth Kami that sacrificed to kill an artifact with 0 activation cost.
No I wouldn't play shatter, but I also wouldn't play a 1/1 Hearth Kami that sacrificed to kill an artifact with 0 activation cost.
That's fine, and I agree, considering that Shatter isn't even a cubeable card at 1CC (Oxidize). Clearly Rampant Growth is a much, much better effect.
Unlike other "effects on a stick", STE doesn't (usually) add value to Rampant Growth, the way FtK is a Flame Slash plus a 4/2. STE adds value when Rampant Growth is worse than a 1/1 (or worth waiting for in order to get a temporary 1/1). Every other ramp card is pretty binary in comparison. STE thrives in the very fluid environments that a highlander cube tends to create. When you have to be able to deal with a turn 1 4 drop AND a backloaded UW control deck, having a less powerful but more versatile ramp card is quite valuable.
Whether I'm using cards that can take advantage of STE's body or not, it can still chump block and then sac, giving me more value than Rampant Growth anyways. I'm not including it because it's a 1G 1/1. I include it because it's a Rampant Growth that has a ton of other upsides because it's also a creature.
Whether I'm using cards that can take advantage of STE's body or not, it can still chump block and then sac, giving me more value than Rampant Growth anyways. I'm not including it because it's a 1G 1/1. I include it because it's a Rampant Growth that has a ton of other upsides because it's also a creature.
Understood. And like I said about 20 posts ago, I think we've hashed this one out.
1) Sakura-Tribe Elder is better than Rampant Growth
2) STE is less explosive than most other 2CMC ramp spells in the cube, however it is more reliable, and that DOES matter.
3) Some people think the incremental advantages it has (which are enumerated multiple places in this thread) are enough to justify calling it a 100% cube staple.
4) Some people think the incremental advantages it has are good enough to justify inclusion in cubes because of it's incredible flexibility, while recognizing that it's rarely going to be more than a flexible ramp spell.
5) Ultimately, very few people are about to cut it, even the people who are in agreement that it could be outclassed.
1) Sakura-Tribe Elder is better than Rampant Growth
2) STE is less explosive than most other 2CMC ramp spells in the cube, however it is more reliable, and that DOES matter.
3) Some people think the incremental advantages it has (which are enumerated multiple places in this thread) are enough to justify calling it a 100% cube staple.
4) Some people think the incremental advantages it has are good enough to justify inclusion in cubes because of it's incredible flexibility, while recognizing that it's rarely going to be more than a flexible ramp spell.
5) Ultimately, very few people are about to cut it, even the people who are in agreement that it could be outclassed.
Necroing this to see how people are feeling about the old Tribe Elder these days. Is it still the 100% cube staple many felt it was three years ago? Has it since been outclassed?
The better Rampant Growth effect by far. Still a important card for the green decks. It gives you a body and an instant speed land fetching ability once its on the field. Also provide a dead trigger when you need it. Can now also seek for a Wastes if it's important for your playgroup. Not close to leave the cube at all.
It has all the small upsides of being a creature card in green with all the reliability of land-based ramping. It'll never be explosive or exciting, but it's consistent and reliable. Unlike Explore, it can get you a 3rd land even if you don't have one. Unlike Wall of Roots, it can fix mana and provide an extra land in the face of removal. Unlike Nature's Lore, STE is a creature, so you can pitch it to Survival, chump block for a turn before cashing in the ramp, or have him pick up a Jitte in a pinch. It's the little things .
Turn 1 - Triome/ Manland.
Turn 2 - Explore/ Nature's Lore/ Wall of Roots -> Land Untapped/ Mana ETB -> 1 CMC Dork.
I've found that the 1 mana refunded from Talisman/ Signet/ Explore etc. have been more relevant than ramp on a body.
i dont think ur appreciating elder's subtlety AY, just being able to chump before ramping/fixing is very meaningful, + being able to be a threat in a pinch late game is not something to be overlooked (picking up a piece of equipment or getting buffed by kessig wolf run
STE as bod picking up equipment or doing "dudely things" makes him shine more than a rampant growth.
He has a lot of versatility at all points in the game.
This is very well articulated. I agree with it entirely.
And like Rexx, I'm in the group that doesn't play see Mogg Fanatic as that amazing.
EDIT: Just realized I'm the guy who created the Mogg Fanatic thread that turned into pretty much this same argument. Apparently I stir up stupid arguments. Genuinely sorry about that
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I agree that I wouldn't run STE in a deck where I didn't think Rampant Growth would be a useful effect (this is the reason to leave it out of aggro). This is not to say I would only run STE in decks where I would maindeck Rampant Growth. Similarly, I probably wouldn't run Uktabi Orangutan if I didn't think a shatter effect was ever going to be useful. That doesn't mean I'd run green shatter in its stead. I tend to run STE because I know it will give me value, even if I don't always know where the value will come from at the time of deckbuilding.
That's a completely irrelevant comparison, because you actually get to keep the Uktabi Orangutan where you don't with Shatter.
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Well I have never attacked with Rampant Growth. Sure, the effect might not come until after the sac, but if you prefer I'll compare Shatter to Hearth Kami, only if Hearth Kami cost nothing to sac.
Just to clear, I do not find the question of STE or Mogg Fanatic silly at all. I think they are both borderline 360 cards that need to be examined. I have found some of the points leveled at them silly however. For example, if STE is playing like a Rampant Growth 95% of the time in your cube, cut him. But to say that he is comparable to Rampant Growth in most cubes is just not true in my experience, for many, many reasons.
Also, it occurs to me that maybe you just have a cube, or a group play-style where having a 1/1 around isn't that valuable.
Right, but if you cast Uktabi Orangutan, you get both effects, the dude AND the shatter. STE forces you to choose, and the primary means is Rampant Growth. If I could get a cross between Sylvan Ranger and STE that put the land into play AND gave me the dude, of course I'd play it. The problem is I don't get my dude unless I don't get my ramp, and that's where the comparison to sex monkeys falls apart.
The ideal Hearth kami comparison where kami costs nothing to sacrifice is an excellent one. I'd play the hell out of a 2/1 STE. Where do I sign up for that?
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But you wouldn't play Shatter, right? So let's stop calling STE Rampant Growth in any sense, and discuss its actual pros and cons. I agree that there is a high bar for what a 1/1 has to do in order to be playable at two mana, but Rampant Growth is a really useful effect. So useful that it is almost cubeable on its own at two mana, so even a small amount of value tacked on (and for us, an often temporary 1/1 is a small but significant amount of value) makes it easily and playable and widely played.
No I wouldn't play shatter, but I also wouldn't play a 1/1 Hearth Kami that sacrificed to kill an artifact with 0 activation cost.
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That's fine, and I agree, considering that Shatter isn't even a cubeable card at 1CC (Oxidize). Clearly Rampant Growth is a much, much better effect.
Unlike other "effects on a stick", STE doesn't (usually) add value to Rampant Growth, the way FtK is a Flame Slash plus a 4/2. STE adds value when Rampant Growth is worse than a 1/1 (or worth waiting for in order to get a temporary 1/1). Every other ramp card is pretty binary in comparison. STE thrives in the very fluid environments that a highlander cube tends to create. When you have to be able to deal with a turn 1 4 drop AND a backloaded UW control deck, having a less powerful but more versatile ramp card is quite valuable.
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Understood. And like I said about 20 posts ago, I think we've hashed this one out.
1) Sakura-Tribe Elder is better than Rampant Growth
2) STE is less explosive than most other 2CMC ramp spells in the cube, however it is more reliable, and that DOES matter.
3) Some people think the incremental advantages it has (which are enumerated multiple places in this thread) are enough to justify calling it a 100% cube staple.
4) Some people think the incremental advantages it has are good enough to justify inclusion in cubes because of it's incredible flexibility, while recognizing that it's rarely going to be more than a flexible ramp spell.
5) Ultimately, very few people are about to cut it, even the people who are in agreement that it could be outclassed.
Thanks for the lively discussion folks!
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Also, I would think most people would rather play Farseek over Rampant Growth anyway in a cube with rares?
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Yup. Probably better now, actually.
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Same. There would need to be quite a few really good green cards printed for STE to make it onto the chopping block.
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I don't even have a daughter but i agree.
thats my cube
I had many times where I went:
Turn 1 - Triome/ Manland.
Turn 2 - Explore/ Nature's Lore/ Wall of Roots -> Land Untapped/ Mana ETB -> 1 CMC Dork.
I've found that the 1 mana refunded from Talisman/ Signet/ Explore etc. have been more relevant than ramp on a body.
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i dont think ur appreciating elder's subtlety AY, just being able to chump before ramping/fixing is very meaningful, + being able to be a threat in a pinch late game is not something to be overlooked (picking up a piece of equipment or getting buffed by kessig wolf run
He has a lot of versatility at all points in the game.
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