All the charms that have been spoiled are good cards, not Insanely good , but nowhere near bad.
Also not all cubes are about raw power. Cycles are resonant, flavorful and Cool. If they were not so loved then WotC would stop printing them. If I want to run spawning pool and treetop village then my players will probably be oh cool I have the G manland and you have the B manland. (i only include treetop village) Most of these "bad cards" are still fairly playable and a black controllish deck would love Spawning pool. 3 mana to block with no consequence is a good deal in a pinch.
If you disagree with me put Spawning pool in the cube for 1 draft, ensure that it is in the cubing pool and see if its last pick. People might not like it but they will take it.
If you disagree with me put Spawning pool in the cube for 1 draft, ensure that it is in the cubing pool and see if its last pick. People might not like it but they will take it.
That's not the same thing as being a good card for the cube.
If you disagree with me put Spawning pool in the cube for 1 draft, ensure that it is in the cubing pool and see if its last pick. People might not like it but they will take it.
This goes back to something I brought up before: running any given card in a cube carries with it an opportunity cost of not running a different card in that slot. When you put a card into your cube, you are in doing so not running a different card. When you run cards that are clearly below your cube's power level, like the aforementioned Spawning Pit or Walking Corpse, you are doing your cube a disservice because you could be running a better card in its place. That a card could be played in some circumstances does not justify its inclusion in the cube.
Related question: Is this a topic of discussion that deserves its own thread? Because Dimir Charm hasn't been mentioned in the past 10-15 posts or so.
If a card would be better suited as something else, there's no reason to force it into the cube. Forcing all 10 Charms into the cube over better cards that could be taking up the same slot IS clogging up packs with less playable cards than what should be included instead.
The reason you don't play Spawning Pool now is because it's not good enough to take up a cube slot. But you play Treetop Village because it is. Why would you intentionally change the requirements for a card to make the cut in the cube simply because it's in a cycle? Do you play all the Commands, or all the Kamigawa dragons or anything else just because some of them are good enough for the cube? Of course not. Because it puts bad cards in the cube for no reason.
I can safely say that if you continue talking like this, you'll be ignored by everyone on the forum. You've already just about forfeit your input entirely. This isn't the rumor mill, we treat each other's opinions respectfully here.
Well apparently everyone around here has this crazy idea that they are the greatest beings on earth and when they take a dump, gold and wonder comes out.
I've seen people in this forum stapling Arcane Denial to their dick because they love it so much and cutting Jace, Memory Adept not because he's too good..but because they think he sucks. And no, everyone does not treat each other's opinions respectfully or else I wouldn't be here typing in the first place. The second I even mentioned having the whole cycle in the cube everyone is like "ROFL DERPDERPDERP U GOTS DAT RAKDOS CHARM lololoMg ur packs must suck bigtime mannnn lolol gtfo!"
Half the people here don't think for themselves anyway..I remember several times when people were arguing over a card and how they thought it was the worst thing in the world and I would get **** on for saying how it's cube-worthy and what do you know..some guy who writes cube articles on SCG comes into the thread and says that the card is playable and suddenly everyone is like "Oh man, this guy is right! This card is so good and you're all dumb for not wanting to play this! NOOBS!"
So I could really care less and I'll leave you all alone. Just keep acting like gods.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
I agree that their are a couple of head dogs on this forum that sway the opinions of other on here. But keeping card quality in your packs high is a basic fundamental of cubing. But its a cube, when it comes down to it you can do whatever you want. Also you should calm down a bit
this card seems better to me the longer i think about it. i may test it in place of talisman of dominance. control could use some more early game cards.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
So I could really care less and I'll leave you all alone. Just keep acting like gods.
I never post here. My philosophy on cube building is so drastically divergent from the general group think here, that I believe my voice here would be of little value of the discourse that goes on. Then again, that makes sense, because when I started the format, it was called "Free Draft" and the goal was to get the feel of playing limited, but without the drastic imbalance, useless filler and (at the time, most important to my broke teenage self) price that comes with booster drafting. The people here are very opinionated and passionate about what they do and how they do it. So am I. I'm pretty sure that if I was a regular poster here, I would end up starting pointless arguments and that's just a waste of everyone's time.
So I don't do it because I love reading this forum. The people here have good insights about stuff. I don't find it all useful. I don't agree with it all. But because the regulars here are respectful and inviting of discourse, I get a lot of good information.
You are completely off base with your evaluation of this forum. I can't for the life of me understand where you go from "Running all 10 charms has significant downsides" to "we all dump gold and wonder".
Anyway, thanks cube fanatics. Keep up the good work.
Everyone has pride in their cube and the work they've done in discerning what the coolest and most fun to play cube is. When you repeatedly attack that it can get the better of people. Card X isnt good enough translates into You aren't a good enough card designer and it can hurt people's feelings. I know feelings on the internet. I don't agree with Spicay's response but his cube design philosophy was kinda beaten on. "I wanna include this cool mostly powerful resonant cycle" can be just as valid as "i want to include the very best cards ever". Also none of the charms aren't really good cards.
I think that the cube forums have been super polarized lately and its gotten a lot of people on edge, both in this discussion and others. We need to calm down, take a deep breath, and pelt people who play Yu-Gi-Oh with bricks like in the olden days. I'm not trolling or trying to stir up trouble, I'm trying to see an issue from both points of view so that people like Spicay post in these forums, and ... the other guy that I don't remember his name but his post is right above mine. Their opinions though very different can both improve our cube experiences as well as people new to cube. Powered cube with all the greatest cards isnt for everyone, All 1 drop cube and "dragony" cubes belong as well.
While I have to distance myself from the tone of your post, I agree with a good number of your points.
Most people are just way too biased when it comes to cards that are in their own cube, while others are way too focused on the opinion of a very limited number of other posters instead of objectively analyzing and testing a card.
This, this and a thousand more times this, thank you.
I may be biased about certain cards and ideas myself, but not to the level of some people who just blatantly ignore cards until someone else tells them that it's good.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
If someone disagrees with you that's not disrespectful Spicay. No-one said anything that could be construed as
ROFL DERPDERPDERP U GOTS DAT RAKDOS CHARM lololoMg ur packs must suck bigtime mannnn lolol gtfo
which basically is so immature that it undermines any point you were trying to make. Chill out and enjoy an adult discussion. No-one on here talks like that or carries that attitude.
I would get **** on for saying how it's cube-worthy and what do you know..some guy who writes cube articles on SCG comes into the thread and says that the card is playable and suddenly everyone is like "Oh man, this guy is right! This card is so good and you're all dumb for not wanting to play this! NOOBS!"
Please, show some examples of this. I'm not trying to call you out, just see where you think that has occurred in the past. The only example I can think of is where we were generally cold on Sneak Attack, and Humpty (I think it was) made a very good post extolling its virtues and pointing out that since we used to play it, the support for its deck is much better. Now a fair amount of us play it. So to say that it is a close-minded community is demonstrably false; we love discussing cards and presented with compelling arguments for an inclusion, I think you'll find most people here willing to hear you out.
Quote from eidolon »
Most people are just way too biased when it comes to cards that are in their own cube, while others are way too focused on the opinion of a very limited number of other posters instead of objectively analyzing and testing a card.
Obivously if you're running a card, you're running it because you think it's good, so I'm not sure that can be considered bias in the strict sense. I mean you have your own pet cards, too, like everyone else. There can be a negativity around analysing and testing new cards, but overall I don't find there to be a large problem.
FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with including the whole charm cycle if you want. There are couple that are underpowered and might be better as another card, but it's a thematic thing then each to their own.
Some charms are good and should be included. Others suck, and should be excluded. It's pretty simple. Including all 10 makes no more sense than including Spawning Pool because you wanna run Treetop Village.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
Spicay, nobody's calling you a noob or saying your cube is bad. At all. We're simply pointing out the reasons why most folks don't choose to run full cycles of cards despite the variance in their power levels. You don't have to agree, but the discussion never got personal, and we were only offering up what we thought would be helpful advice. I have several "pet" cards that I include in my cube because my playgroup enjoys them more than other groups on this forum do. There's nothing wrong with doing that. Catering to your playgroup is really important. All I was saying is that there are drawbacks to blindly including all the cards from a cycle instead of picking and choosing. But instead of you saying "ya, we know it may not be ideal, but the impact on the draft is relatively small and my playgroup and I really like the idea" ...you kinda freaked out back there. I hope you all enjoy the cards you're adding in.
Every single cube on this forum is different. There are shared opinions and differing opinions. There are universally played cards and playgroup specific cards. I think the contributing members of this forum demonstrate both individualism and the ability to recognize, adjust and adopt good ideas when they see them.
Has anybody already played with the card and can give a short feedback?
As for Dimir Charm, it's been testing great so far. It kills over half the cube creatures, counters tons of powerful spells, screws up your opponent's topdecks and Tutor draws, can increase your card quality when you need to dig, and is great after Brainstorm effects to load up your graveyard and/or take out the trash. Even between the removal and counter modes, it should be valuable against about 10 cards in each deck you face.
I will most likely be running this over psychatog for a while. My cube rarely gets drafted by more than two people, thus building a successful psychatog deck is difficult, save for an upheaval. Unless dimir has something better cube-wise to offer, this is going in for testing.
I will most likely be running this over psychatog for a while. My cube rarely gets drafted by more than two people, thus building a successful psychatog deck is difficult, save for an upheaval. Unless dimir has something better cube-wise to offer, this is going in for testing.
I'm in the same boat. It kills me because I freaking love Psychatog, but letting him shine can be difficult when card selection is low.
I don't think much more can be said about either of the two subjects in this thread. While black is stock full of creature destruction, and blue counterspells and library manipulation, this card still has a place because it is three different cards in one slot. It very efficiently solves all the problems that blue black knows how to solve and at the very worst lets you ~ fateseal 3. I like it, but would qualify it as my number 5 in the color pair. Its not exciting, but its a good roleplayer. (for reference Tezzeret, agent of bolas, havengul lich, baleful strix, agony warp, and forbidden alchemy was what i was running before, and it easily replaces either of the last two, but personal preference will make it replace alchemy.)
So kindergarten isnt over yet? I will try it again as this thread is still named Dimir Charm. Has anybody already played with the card and can give a short feedback?
A teammate had it in the last draft & he said it played pretty well for him. During the draft he countered 2 sorceries (couldn't remember which ones) & killed a Joraga Treespeaker. That seems pretty good.
It will probably make the cut until at least DGM assuming Dimir stays similar to its current state.
At the very least I'll probably like it because it "has play" both early (killing mana dorks and other aggro critters) and late (countering game-changing sorceries like Armageddon, Bribery, Plow Under, etc.).
Ya, it's never a dead card either, because the library manipulation can be great in both offensive and defensive capacities even late (preventing or creating a clutch topdeck).
Also not all cubes are about raw power. Cycles are resonant, flavorful and Cool. If they were not so loved then WotC would stop printing them. If I want to run spawning pool and treetop village then my players will probably be oh cool I have the G manland and you have the B manland. (i only include treetop village) Most of these "bad cards" are still fairly playable and a black controllish deck would love Spawning pool. 3 mana to block with no consequence is a good deal in a pinch.
If you disagree with me put Spawning pool in the cube for 1 draft, ensure that it is in the cubing pool and see if its last pick. People might not like it but they will take it.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
That's not the same thing as being a good card for the cube.
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
If I was drafting a B/W aggro deck, I would probably take a Walking Corpse or Eager Cadet over an off-color card. Neither is anywhere near good enough to play in cube. Similarly, I'm not going to run Giant Growth and Healing Salve to justify running Ancestral Recall, Lightning Bolt, and Dark Ritual. And, in my favorite example, I am not going to run Boros Garrison just so that I can run Azorius Chancery.
This goes back to something I brought up before: running any given card in a cube carries with it an opportunity cost of not running a different card in that slot. When you put a card into your cube, you are in doing so not running a different card. When you run cards that are clearly below your cube's power level, like the aforementioned Spawning Pit or Walking Corpse, you are doing your cube a disservice because you could be running a better card in its place. That a card could be played in some circumstances does not justify its inclusion in the cube.
Related question: Is this a topic of discussion that deserves its own thread? Because Dimir Charm hasn't been mentioned in the past 10-15 posts or so.
EDIT:
Playing a better card would clog up your packs less.
The reason you don't play Spawning Pool now is because it's not good enough to take up a cube slot. But you play Treetop Village because it is. Why would you intentionally change the requirements for a card to make the cut in the cube simply because it's in a cycle? Do you play all the Commands, or all the Kamigawa dragons or anything else just because some of them are good enough for the cube? Of course not. Because it puts bad cards in the cube for no reason.
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Well apparently everyone around here has this crazy idea that they are the greatest beings on earth and when they take a dump, gold and wonder comes out.
I've seen people in this forum stapling Arcane Denial to their dick because they love it so much and cutting Jace, Memory Adept not because he's too good..but because they think he sucks. And no, everyone does not treat each other's opinions respectfully or else I wouldn't be here typing in the first place. The second I even mentioned having the whole cycle in the cube everyone is like "ROFL DERPDERPDERP U GOTS DAT RAKDOS CHARM lololoMg ur packs must suck bigtime mannnn lolol gtfo!"
Half the people here don't think for themselves anyway..I remember several times when people were arguing over a card and how they thought it was the worst thing in the world and I would get **** on for saying how it's cube-worthy and what do you know..some guy who writes cube articles on SCG comes into the thread and says that the card is playable and suddenly everyone is like "Oh man, this guy is right! This card is so good and you're all dumb for not wanting to play this! NOOBS!"
So I could really care less and I'll leave you all alone. Just keep acting like gods.
Infraction issued for Flaming.
—Lanxal
there's a difference between disrespect and disagreement. i invite you to point to a post (other than yours) that was disrespectful.
I never post here. My philosophy on cube building is so drastically divergent from the general group think here, that I believe my voice here would be of little value of the discourse that goes on. Then again, that makes sense, because when I started the format, it was called "Free Draft" and the goal was to get the feel of playing limited, but without the drastic imbalance, useless filler and (at the time, most important to my broke teenage self) price that comes with booster drafting. The people here are very opinionated and passionate about what they do and how they do it. So am I. I'm pretty sure that if I was a regular poster here, I would end up starting pointless arguments and that's just a waste of everyone's time.
So I don't do it because I love reading this forum. The people here have good insights about stuff. I don't find it all useful. I don't agree with it all. But because the regulars here are respectful and inviting of discourse, I get a lot of good information.
You are completely off base with your evaluation of this forum. I can't for the life of me understand where you go from "Running all 10 charms has significant downsides" to "we all dump gold and wonder".
Anyway, thanks cube fanatics. Keep up the good work.
I think that the cube forums have been super polarized lately and its gotten a lot of people on edge, both in this discussion and others. We need to calm down, take a deep breath, and pelt people who play Yu-Gi-Oh with bricks like in the olden days. I'm not trolling or trying to stir up trouble, I'm trying to see an issue from both points of view so that people like Spicay post in these forums, and ... the other guy that I don't remember his name but his post is right above mine. Their opinions though very different can both improve our cube experiences as well as people new to cube. Powered cube with all the greatest cards isnt for everyone, All 1 drop cube and "dragony" cubes belong as well.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
This, this and a thousand more times this, thank you.
I may be biased about certain cards and ideas myself, but not to the level of some people who just blatantly ignore cards until someone else tells them that it's good.
which basically is so immature that it undermines any point you were trying to make. Chill out and enjoy an adult discussion. No-one on here talks like that or carries that attitude.
Please, show some examples of this. I'm not trying to call you out, just see where you think that has occurred in the past. The only example I can think of is where we were generally cold on Sneak Attack, and Humpty (I think it was) made a very good post extolling its virtues and pointing out that since we used to play it, the support for its deck is much better. Now a fair amount of us play it. So to say that it is a close-minded community is demonstrably false; we love discussing cards and presented with compelling arguments for an inclusion, I think you'll find most people here willing to hear you out.
Obivously if you're running a card, you're running it because you think it's good, so I'm not sure that can be considered bias in the strict sense. I mean you have your own pet cards, too, like everyone else. There can be a negativity around analysing and testing new cards, but overall I don't find there to be a large problem.
FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with including the whole charm cycle if you want. There are couple that are underpowered and might be better as another card, but it's a thematic thing then each to their own.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Or Healing Salve because you run Lightning Bolt.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
As the genius Sir Isaac Newton once put it: "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
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As for Dimir Charm, it's been testing great so far. It kills over half the cube creatures, counters tons of powerful spells, screws up your opponent's topdecks and Tutor draws, can increase your card quality when you need to dig, and is great after Brainstorm effects to load up your graveyard and/or take out the trash. Even between the removal and counter modes, it should be valuable against about 10 cards in each deck you face.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
I'm in the same boat. It kills me because I freaking love Psychatog, but letting him shine can be difficult when card selection is low.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I don't think much more can be said about either of the two subjects in this thread. While black is stock full of creature destruction, and blue counterspells and library manipulation, this card still has a place because it is three different cards in one slot. It very efficiently solves all the problems that blue black knows how to solve and at the very worst lets you ~ fateseal 3. I like it, but would qualify it as my number 5 in the color pair. Its not exciting, but its a good roleplayer. (for reference Tezzeret, agent of bolas, havengul lich, baleful strix, agony warp, and forbidden alchemy was what i was running before, and it easily replaces either of the last two, but personal preference will make it replace alchemy.)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
A teammate had it in the last draft & he said it played pretty well for him. During the draft he countered 2 sorceries (couldn't remember which ones) & killed a Joraga Treespeaker. That seems pretty good.
It will probably make the cut until at least DGM assuming Dimir stays similar to its current state.
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!