The dislike comes from the fact that the clock in so short, and the ways to interact with the clock are few. People feel that Jace 3 doesn't give them a chance since it hits the turn in comes down, and takes many paths to victory away from you in the process. My group felt that way, and so I cut it whether I specifically agreed or not.
Saying Jace had zero effect on the game because it didn't mill your opponent out is disingenuous. What you mill does have an effect on the game. It's not a controlled effect, and it's not something to count on, but it does have an effect.
I've just lost too many games where I played Jace, milled 10, and then watched him get Dreadbored/OblivionRinged, or watched them play a hasty dude and kill him, or they had removal spells for all my blockers, or whatever, they killed him, and now I've played a 5 drop and gotten nothing out of it at all. Sure, they milled 10, but ultimately that's as likely to help them as it is to not nowadays. 10 cards isn't going to change the win condition to milling them, most likely, and so now we're looking to see if I milled a Flashback card, or a Scavenge card, or some recursive threat like Bloodghast, or something with Dredge, or just a lot of lands and they have Crucible, or maybe some good creatures and they have Volrath's Stronghold, or a reanimation spell.
People who say "I can't interact with my opponent playing a 5 mana planeswalker that doesn't protect itself" are people who like to whine when they lose. It's called attacking him.
Think about it this way. If you're on the draw, on your turn 4 you play a dude of some sort probably. Then you pass to them, and they play Jace, mill 10. Sure you couldn't stop the mill 10, but instead of dealing with your dude, they played Jace. That means you should have a dude that can attack him. Plus you have all your mana and resources on your turn 5 to deal with him as well.
Yes, he's a super fast clock. But you can win after getting milled twice, and that's not irrelevant. And he's a really crappy thing to play if you're behind. I'm OK with giving control players one card in the cube that lets them put away the game quickly when they're already ahead, especially if that card is particularly bad when they're not ahead. Now they have to choose between something like Meloku who can help you when you're behind and when you're ahead, but isn't as explosive, or something like Jace who is only good when you're ahead and pretty crappy when your opponent has a better board presence than you.
I don't feel strongly about Jace being the "best finisher" or anything, I'm just put off by people who are such sore losers that they have to cut cards that are "too good", just because they don't want the player who has already pulled ahead to be able to win the game.
He requires quite a lot of work to pull off, but can get you there if you do. Benefits from a white/blue build with moat, and is much better if you draft sword of body and mind =O.
I see him as a card to consider once you are above 500 cards. Until that point, he tends to be a dead draw against most aggro and mid-range decks, who will be outpowering you with creatures and board presence.
Personally, I am much happier to run a card like Tamiyo in an aggro heavy cube like mine. More synergy with other cards, stops the biggest threat, and a great finisher in green/blue tempo decks. Jace three doesn't really fit any archtypes I am trying support, and the only role he fills is as a potential 5th turn closer, that works maybe 25% of the time.
On the whole, he is quite average. There was, and still is, a lot of hype around his ability to close out games, but after playing with him for over a year, I have noticed he is very inconsistent, and doesn't really help against the match-ups control needs help with.
And yes, the mill ten is usually relevant, as you can hit some big stuff. But if he is answered, its one heck of wasted turn.
I think when people say non-interactive they don't mean that there is no way to interact with the card.
I think that they mean more that Jace 3 doesn't play along the same axes of interaction that the rest of the cube does. It doesn't interact with creatures, and it doesn't interact with life totals, and it doesn't interact with cards in hand. In that sense, there are no "direct" counters to Jace's effect except to cast a Time Spiral, whereas you can resurrect creatures, gain life, or draw additional cards to counteract the effect of other PWs.
The other way in which it is non-interactive is that there's really only one mode that's optimal most of the time, which makes it less interactive for the player casting him.
I don't think that many people are saying Jace is at Sol Ring level (just a couple of people). I think everyone acknowledges that he is a fairly strong finisher in the cube format, and I think the frustration is that he is a kind of finisher with which there are very few ways to interact. I think that counts for something, even if it's mainly psychological. It's the same reason I don't run Sigarda.
The last thing I want to say is that there aren't a whole heck of a lot of 5-drops in blue that'll close out the game for you if you drop it on turn 5 and aren't already significantly ahead. Treachery maybe, and Bribery if you can snag a big monster from them, but generally speaking you don't just drop your Mulldrifter or Meloku on turn 5 and expect them to win on the spot. In that particular sense, Jace is not that different.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Milling is only relevant if you kill your opponent with it. It doesn't matter what you mill, that is only relevant psychologically.
The only very minor advantage is that is messes up tutors. This is offset by allowing reanimation and flashback costs anyway.
True. I find it funny when it hits their permanent removal. =P. Certainly psychological.
Not necessarily a contradictory statement. Mill 10 can sometimes help you out, if your grinding out a game against control. I've lost to just one activation of Jace 3, because I was drawing so many cards. Also, I've seen someone mill 10, lose jace, then play sword of body and mind next turn, and win. So you never know.
But most of the time, if you mill 10, lose jace, you then have just glimpsed. Not the greatest turn ever. You did stuff, but not really effective stuff. Relevant, but not amazing.
I dislike Jace 3.0 for the same reason I dislike Moat. When it's good, you've won the game, when it's not good, it didn't really do anything. The fact that when it is good it feels very unfun to play against is strike against it for me. WotC has said it was not designed with limited in mind, so I don't feel bad not including it in my list (like I was going to feel bad anyway :D).
I've seen people lose more than once because they activated Jace's Mill 10 ability and giving the opponent some cards that could be utilized through the grave.
Had a game where I got Gravecrawler and Bloodghast from the activation, killed Jace, and continued to win with my two critters.
I've seen people lose more than once because they activated Jace's Mill 10 ability and giving the opponent some cards that could be utilized through the grave.
Had a game where I got Gravecrawler and Bloodghast from the activation, killed Jace, and continued to win with my two critters.
Haha, yeah, that does seem good. Though, I might argue that's a corner case. Jace 3.0 (and really every other Jace) seem to be very low-risk/high-reward.
Haha, yeah, that does seem good. Though, I might argue that's a corner case. Jace 3.0 (and really every other Jace) seem to be very low-risk/high-reward.
I dislike Jace 3.0 for the same reason I dislike Moat. When it's good, you've won the game, when it's not good, it didn't really do anything. The fact that when it is good it feels very unfun to play against is strike against it for me. WotC has said it was not designed with limited in mind, so I don't feel bad not including it in my list (like I was going to feel bad anyway :D).
I have been adding better blue cards in my cube. I feel like Jace 3.0 could be unfun. I notice it was ranked something like the #10 top card in blue section of cubes. I have added Jitte to my cube.So far we have had 1 game where someone got Jitte. I ended up having Ob-Nilxilis in my deck and that gave my friend problems. Jitte did have an impact on the game. It didn't make me feel like I should take it out of my cube. I feel like Jace 3.0 takes the fun out of winning and loosing. If it does work someone will probably be dead in 2 turns. I could put Jace 3.0 in my unpowered cube but would rather not.
It's certainly a controversial card. If you want to run it, it's a top finisher, hence its high finish in the rankings last year. Many had opted for the versatility of a creature instead, and there can be the possibility that Jace didn't contribute anything if it is answered. It really depends what sort of finisher you're looking for. It's currently my only finisher in blue other than Meloku, as I'm not a great fan of any of the usual six CMC options.
I cut the card because of how polar it was. I'm not really interested in a win condition that can be attacked to death and have done nothing for your game plan.
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I feel like Jace 3.0 could be unfun. I notice it was ranked something like the #10 top card in blue section of cubes.
I doubt it will crack the top 15 in this year's voting. Its really not that good and milling your opponent is OFTEN terrible for you as already pointed out.
After casting JMA many times, he has failed to impress. I never thought I'd say this, but I think Wolf is right and he is just not good enough for cube. I will be looking to cut him soon.
After casting JMA many times, he has failed to impress. I never thought I'd say this, but I think Wolf is right and he is just not good enough for cube. I will be looking to cut him soon.
What is the world coming to?
Pretty much this right here:
Quote from kojiro »
When it's good, you've won the game, when it's not good, it didn't really do anything.
Sums up how we felt after the OMG 40 CARD DECK SUPER BROKEN 11!!!!1! feeling wore off and we saw how it was actually performing in drafts.
I'll echo that it is the polarity of the card that makes it so unfun, IMO. It has a binary nature of either being way too good or doing 'not much' for the investment, and for that, it was the Weakest Link.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Saying Jace had zero effect on the game because it didn't mill your opponent out is disingenuous. What you mill does have an effect on the game. It's not a controlled effect, and it's not something to count on, but it does have an effect.
I'm ambivalent personally.
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People who say "I can't interact with my opponent playing a 5 mana planeswalker that doesn't protect itself" are people who like to whine when they lose. It's called attacking him.
Think about it this way. If you're on the draw, on your turn 4 you play a dude of some sort probably. Then you pass to them, and they play Jace, mill 10. Sure you couldn't stop the mill 10, but instead of dealing with your dude, they played Jace. That means you should have a dude that can attack him. Plus you have all your mana and resources on your turn 5 to deal with him as well.
Yes, he's a super fast clock. But you can win after getting milled twice, and that's not irrelevant. And he's a really crappy thing to play if you're behind. I'm OK with giving control players one card in the cube that lets them put away the game quickly when they're already ahead, especially if that card is particularly bad when they're not ahead. Now they have to choose between something like Meloku who can help you when you're behind and when you're ahead, but isn't as explosive, or something like Jace who is only good when you're ahead and pretty crappy when your opponent has a better board presence than you.
I don't feel strongly about Jace being the "best finisher" or anything, I'm just put off by people who are such sore losers that they have to cut cards that are "too good", just because they don't want the player who has already pulled ahead to be able to win the game.
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He requires quite a lot of work to pull off, but can get you there if you do. Benefits from a white/blue build with moat, and is much better if you draft sword of body and mind =O.
I see him as a card to consider once you are above 500 cards. Until that point, he tends to be a dead draw against most aggro and mid-range decks, who will be outpowering you with creatures and board presence.
Personally, I am much happier to run a card like Tamiyo in an aggro heavy cube like mine. More synergy with other cards, stops the biggest threat, and a great finisher in green/blue tempo decks. Jace three doesn't really fit any archtypes I am trying support, and the only role he fills is as a potential 5th turn closer, that works maybe 25% of the time.
On the whole, he is quite average. There was, and still is, a lot of hype around his ability to close out games, but after playing with him for over a year, I have noticed he is very inconsistent, and doesn't really help against the match-ups control needs help with.
And yes, the mill ten is usually relevant, as you can hit some big stuff. But if he is answered, its one heck of wasted turn.
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I think that they mean more that Jace 3 doesn't play along the same axes of interaction that the rest of the cube does. It doesn't interact with creatures, and it doesn't interact with life totals, and it doesn't interact with cards in hand. In that sense, there are no "direct" counters to Jace's effect except to cast a Time Spiral, whereas you can resurrect creatures, gain life, or draw additional cards to counteract the effect of other PWs.
The other way in which it is non-interactive is that there's really only one mode that's optimal most of the time, which makes it less interactive for the player casting him.
I don't think that many people are saying Jace is at Sol Ring level (just a couple of people). I think everyone acknowledges that he is a fairly strong finisher in the cube format, and I think the frustration is that he is a kind of finisher with which there are very few ways to interact. I think that counts for something, even if it's mainly psychological. It's the same reason I don't run Sigarda.
The last thing I want to say is that there aren't a whole heck of a lot of 5-drops in blue that'll close out the game for you if you drop it on turn 5 and aren't already significantly ahead. Treachery maybe, and Bribery if you can snag a big monster from them, but generally speaking you don't just drop your Mulldrifter or Meloku on turn 5 and expect them to win on the spot. In that particular sense, Jace is not that different.
these two statements seem to directly contradict each other.
Milling is only relevant if you kill your opponent with it. It doesn't matter what you mill, that is only relevant psychologically.
The only very minor advantage is that is messes up tutors. This is offset by allowing reanimation and flashback costs anyway.
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True. I find it funny when it hits their permanent removal. =P. Certainly psychological.
Not necessarily a contradictory statement. Mill 10 can sometimes help you out, if your grinding out a game against control. I've lost to just one activation of Jace 3, because I was drawing so many cards. Also, I've seen someone mill 10, lose jace, then play sword of body and mind next turn, and win. So you never know.
But most of the time, if you mill 10, lose jace, you then have just glimpsed. Not the greatest turn ever. You did stuff, but not really effective stuff. Relevant, but not amazing.
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It's one of those debates that seems to come up every time a card with an ability that mills is printed or discussed...
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Had a game where I got Gravecrawler and Bloodghast from the activation, killed Jace, and continued to win with my two critters.
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Yeah, this is not the most usual scenario.
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I doubt it will crack the top 15 in this year's voting. Its really not that good and milling your opponent is OFTEN terrible for you as already pointed out.
What is the world coming to?
Pretty much this right here:
Sums up how we felt after the OMG 40 CARD DECK SUPER BROKEN 11!!!!1! feeling wore off and we saw how it was actually performing in drafts.
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Also no card has been as universally hated in my cube as JMA. It is unlikely to ever make it back in.
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