Sure, why not have a Smother that can destroy bothersome artifacts/enchantments/a couple Planeswalkers in the mix for fun. Oh and the lolcantbecountered.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
I'm currently tossing up between this and Lolteeth Troll for my third G/B slot. Leaning towards the troll though; there are less creatures that do what he does in cube, and plenty of removal. That means no Vraska for us. Deathrite Shaman might so the light of day somehow, though. I'll figure something out if the card's good enough.
How is the troll testing for people? Is it the obvious powerhouse it appears to be?
Troll is awesome, I'd play it over Decay. Pulse and Deed are already removal in G/B - and you have a lot of black creature removal and green artifact/enchantment removal in monocolor. If you're looking for a 3rd card, I'd go with the Troll.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
I'm currently tossing up between this and Lolteeth Troll for my third G/B slot. Leaning towards the troll though; there are less creatures that do what he does in cube, and plenty of removal. That means no Vraska for us. Deathrite Shaman might so the light of day somehow, though. I'll figure something out if the card's good enough.
How is the troll testing for people? Is it the obvious powerhouse it appears to be?
Abrupt Decay has been very good for us, hits a ton of things.
We have only had Lotleth Troll in one match so far but he was fantastic. I was playing a BGu deck with I think it was 5 reanimating spells including Recurring Nightmare. The deck was a little slow but the regen was super handy as was how easy the discard ability to pump him up.
Also had Pack Rats in the deck. It won a game on it's own pretty much.
I think that in a tight cube, troll would be better than decay. This is because Decay gives you a second Pulse effect, while troll gives you a unique effect for Golgari.
Sure, why not have a Smother that can destroy bothersome artifacts/enchantments/a couple Planeswalkers in the mix for fun. Oh and the lolcantbecountered.
Funny Trolls are better trolls, I agree completely. I'm also very impressed by Decay but since the color combination already has two stelar and better removal spells I'll be including the #3 Troll #4 Deathrite Shaman #5 Abrupt decay. I think the two creatures give more dimensions to the color combination.
I actually like Decay more than putrefy. The lesser cost and uncounterable aspect far make up for the inability to hit a higher castig cost dude or artifact.
I don't know about you, but killing a vortex or survival early is far more important than killing a big guy lat, especially when you're in black and probably have a decent amount of removal aside from this.
I finally sat down and actually counted the targets in my cube:
Permanents that Abrupt Decay kills (but Putrefy does not): 21
Permanents that Putrefy kills (but Abrupt Decay does not): 101
So, while Abrupt Decay costs 1 less (which is great) and cannot be countered (which won't come up that often, especially on an instant that can be played around counters), Putrefy kills 80 more cards in my cube than Abrupt Decay. And while Abrupt Decay has a few very good targets (Sulfuric Vortex, Oblivion Ring, Detention Sphere, the three cheap planeswalkers), Putrefy kills a lot of the really scary creatures that can just kill you in a few turns when you don't have removal for them. And even if the number of big Putrefy targets is smaller in other cubes, there will still be some of the same scary deal-with-me-now cards among them.
In conclusion, I really can't see why Abrupt Decay is regarded as so much better than Putrefy. Maybe in small, powered cubes, yes, but the two cards seem to be pretty close in any other cube.
Luckily, I don't really have to decide between those two cards, because I will include Vraska the Unseen over both of them. She can kill small and big cards of all types alike, can sometimes kill two permanents and can act as a threat, too.
I thought Decay was slightly better than Putrefy, but maybe it's not. Maybe Putrefy is actually better. One more mana isn't really that big of a deal.
With pulse and dead additional removal in the guild isn't crucial, this is why I value deathrite shaman somewhat above the 3rd removal spell (putrify or decay)
I thought Decay was slightly better than Putrefy, but maybe it's not. Maybe Putrefy is actually better. One more mana isn't really that big of a deal.
I was a bit surprised, too, and counted three times to make sure that I had it right. As I said, my cube has a slightly above average mana curve. In a more streamlined cube (of the same size), it will probably be between 80 and 90 cards that Putrefy can kill and Abrupt decay cannot. Which would still be a lot more cards than the other way around.
In the end, it depends on the cube. It just seems that for most cubes, it is not such a clear advantage for Abrupt Decay as some might think.
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With pulse and dead additional removal in the guild isn't crucial, this is why I value deathrite shaman somewhat above the 3rd removal spell (putrify or decay)
This is another reason why I am not that excited about Abrupt Decay: It is just another removal spell in a color combination that already has a few great ones. I am much more excited about a card that can kill planeswalkers of any size (Vraska) than I am about a Smother variant.
The difference is not that extreme in my cube. And my list is powered, so the value of the cheaper removal is more important. The card is also 50% less mana, but only hits about 20% less targets. That's a tremendous trade, IMO. I only have ~65 targets it misses, and ~20 targets it gains, and that's significantly less percentage wise than Star Slayers cube list.
Overall the card goes from having about ~ 260 targets to having ~ 215 targets. Which is a loss of about ~15-20% of the overall number of targets, but a reduction in cost of 50%. Super efficient in the cost/target ratio.
in my 360 unpowered list, abrupt decay hits 17 targets putrefy can't hit, and putrefy hits 52 targets decay can't hit. uncounterable and cheaper are definitely not inconsequential, but overall i don't feel bad about excluding either card.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I feel like this card (while awesome) doesn't do what unpowered lists want in the BG section. As the importance of faster answers go up (power), this card becomes better. In an unpowered list (like my 450), the importance of versatility and being a broader answer is a little more important. I'm not cubing this or putrefy, but I think putrefy would edge this out in my slightly slower cube environment.
I like Putrefy more than Abrupt Decay. There are not enough cheap enchantments/ Planeswalkers to lose versatility IMO. The cannot be countered isnt as big of a deal in cube.
I like Putrefy more than Abrupt Decay. There are not enough cheap enchantments/ Planeswalkers to lose versatility IMO. The cannot be countered isnt as big of a deal in cube.
I really dislike the argument of how many targets the card can hit... It's not so much about number as it is about quality. Take for example Swords to Plowshares it has at the very least 20+ targets less than Putrefy, it's still by far the better removal. Granted, the comparison isn't as apt, due to being 2 less, in a different colour, and less mana restrictive, but it's still good to take into account that more targets does not always make a better card...
Furthermore, as I mentioned before being in BG you should have a good amount of removal for other creatures, which are those 40+ targets Putrefy can hit. Also, as those cards are 4+ mana, and creatures for the most part, there's often (if not always) the fact that they provide other benefits aside from the body which already happened. In other words, do Deranged Hermit, Genesis, Shriekmaw, Academy Rector, Venser, Shaper Sevant, and Duplicant really count for that much in terms of targets when compared to Survival of the Fittest or Oblivion Ring?
what this means is, the difference between the two cards will depend heavily on your list and you'll have to go through it manually to determine how big that difference is. it's more complicated than "good" and "bad," as well. yes, hitting venser isn't a great benefit over decay, but it can sometimes be important. hitting restoration angel is definitely a positive even though it will already have had a strong effect, because a 3/4 flier isn't something you can just ignore. being able to hit vorapede could be meaningless, or crucial, depending on whether he's already been killed once or not.
for my own list, i counted 28 crucial targets putrefy hits that decay doesn't. these are cards like gideon jura, baneslayer angel, batterskull, consecrated sphinx, etc. cards you need to hit to avoid losing. decay has only a few targets that aren't great, like rancor and sometimes pernicious deed (depending on the situation), so that's 15/16 crucial targets. most of these are pretty important, like liliana of the veil, animate dead, and oblivion ring. the thing is, the "bad" targets putrefy hits are still pretty important. sure, cloudgoat ranger leaves dudes behind, but he's still a 3/3 that can evasively hit for 5. wurmcoil engine isn't going to go away completely, but you are going to limit the lifegain and two 3/3s will be much easier to deal with in combat. so i don't think those targets should be completely discounted, and there's a lot of them.
in the end, i still feel like putrefy has an edge over this card in an unpowered cube. it's pretty close, but there's a substantial number of targets that i'd happily pay 1 more to not lose to.
for reference, here are the targets in my own list:
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
So what we really need is a list of *important* targets that Putrefy can hit that Abrupt Decay can't, and vice versa.
I mean, Abrupt Decay hitting Rancor is a play but it's not one that is going to make me want to run the card over Putrefy.
Just giving a quick lookover, it seems like most of Putrefy's targets are worthwhile, while a bunch of Abrupt Decay's aren't...
Animate Dead, Necromancy, Survival of the Fittest, Sylvan Library, Phyrexian Arena, Liliana of the Veil and Pernicious Deed are all in green/black, so these are less likely to be found on the other side of the table. Moreover, Animate Dead and Necromancy are kind of boarderline because Putrefy will kill the creature anyway unless it has shroud/hexproof.
Hmm, I might actually prefer Putrefy over Abrupt Decay. The extra mana might be worth all the extra important targets. Dying to a fatty is more likely than me having the Abrupt Decay for Sulfuric Vortex.
No question that Abrupt Decay will be an all-star in other formats, but 2cmc vs 3cmc is often not as big a deal in cube.
I think it's a lot closer than we were originally making it out to be, which makes it drop a few slots in my estimation.
Don't forget that black has a ton of cards that are good at dealing with late-game creatures, and almost nothing that deals with the early targets Decay can hit.
I think its pretty close, one less mana, but it cannot kill very many finishers. I would personally not worry about the one mana, since green decks in my cube generally get out more mana than non green decks. I prefer the versatility over the one mana and cannot be countered. There are only a handful of enchantments/ PW that cost 3 or less in my cube. Its really hard to say one is better than the other.
Sure, why not have a Smother that can destroy bothersome artifacts/enchantments/a couple Planeswalkers in the mix for fun. Oh and the lolcantbecountered.
Seriously guys.
I swear that you're like one of the only people who knows what he's talking about in these threads.
You're going to make a lot more enemies than friends by saying everyone is dumb except for one guy.
It doesn't help that you're just rehashing the text on the card or things people have already said with a condescending manner.
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How is the troll testing for people? Is it the obvious powerhouse it appears to be?
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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..and?
I obviously have to rehash it in that "kind of matter" because people aren't getting the card evidently.
Abrupt Decay has been very good for us, hits a ton of things.
We have only had Lotleth Troll in one match so far but he was fantastic. I was playing a BGu deck with I think it was 5 reanimating spells including Recurring Nightmare. The deck was a little slow but the regen was super handy as was how easy the discard ability to pump him up.
Also had Pack Rats in the deck. It won a game on it's own pretty much.
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Funny Trolls are better trolls, I agree completely. I'm also very impressed by Decay but since the color combination already has two stelar and better removal spells I'll be including the #3 Troll #4 Deathrite Shaman #5 Abrupt decay. I think the two creatures give more dimensions to the color combination.
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I don't know about you, but killing a vortex or survival early is far more important than killing a big guy lat, especially when you're in black and probably have a decent amount of removal aside from this.
Permanents that Abrupt Decay kills (but Putrefy does not): 21
Permanents that Putrefy kills (but Abrupt Decay does not): 101
So, while Abrupt Decay costs 1 less (which is great) and cannot be countered (which won't come up that often, especially on an instant that can be played around counters), Putrefy kills 80 more cards in my cube than Abrupt Decay. And while Abrupt Decay has a few very good targets (Sulfuric Vortex, Oblivion Ring, Detention Sphere, the three cheap planeswalkers), Putrefy kills a lot of the really scary creatures that can just kill you in a few turns when you don't have removal for them. And even if the number of big Putrefy targets is smaller in other cubes, there will still be some of the same scary deal-with-me-now cards among them.
In conclusion, I really can't see why Abrupt Decay is regarded as so much better than Putrefy. Maybe in small, powered cubes, yes, but the two cards seem to be pretty close in any other cube.
Luckily, I don't really have to decide between those two cards, because I will include Vraska the Unseen over both of them. She can kill small and big cards of all types alike, can sometimes kill two permanents and can act as a threat, too.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I thought Decay was slightly better than Putrefy, but maybe it's not. Maybe Putrefy is actually better. One more mana isn't really that big of a deal.
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With pulse and dead additional removal in the guild isn't crucial, this is why I value deathrite shaman somewhat above the 3rd removal spell (putrify or decay)
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I was a bit surprised, too, and counted three times to make sure that I had it right. As I said, my cube has a slightly above average mana curve. In a more streamlined cube (of the same size), it will probably be between 80 and 90 cards that Putrefy can kill and Abrupt decay cannot. Which would still be a lot more cards than the other way around.
In the end, it depends on the cube. It just seems that for most cubes, it is not such a clear advantage for Abrupt Decay as some might think.
This is another reason why I am not that excited about Abrupt Decay: It is just another removal spell in a color combination that already has a few great ones. I am much more excited about a card that can kill planeswalkers of any size (Vraska) than I am about a Smother variant.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Overall the card goes from having about ~ 260 targets to having ~ 215 targets. Which is a loss of about ~15-20% of the overall number of targets, but a reduction in cost of 50%. Super efficient in the cost/target ratio.
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No, but costing less mana is.
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Furthermore, as I mentioned before being in BG you should have a good amount of removal for other creatures, which are those 40+ targets Putrefy can hit. Also, as those cards are 4+ mana, and creatures for the most part, there's often (if not always) the fact that they provide other benefits aside from the body which already happened. In other words, do Deranged Hermit, Genesis, Shriekmaw, Academy Rector, Venser, Shaper Sevant, and Duplicant really count for that much in terms of targets when compared to Survival of the Fittest or Oblivion Ring?
this is an excellent point.
what this means is, the difference between the two cards will depend heavily on your list and you'll have to go through it manually to determine how big that difference is. it's more complicated than "good" and "bad," as well. yes, hitting venser isn't a great benefit over decay, but it can sometimes be important. hitting restoration angel is definitely a positive even though it will already have had a strong effect, because a 3/4 flier isn't something you can just ignore. being able to hit vorapede could be meaningless, or crucial, depending on whether he's already been killed once or not.
for my own list, i counted 28 crucial targets putrefy hits that decay doesn't. these are cards like gideon jura, baneslayer angel, batterskull, consecrated sphinx, etc. cards you need to hit to avoid losing. decay has only a few targets that aren't great, like rancor and sometimes pernicious deed (depending on the situation), so that's 15/16 crucial targets. most of these are pretty important, like liliana of the veil, animate dead, and oblivion ring. the thing is, the "bad" targets putrefy hits are still pretty important. sure, cloudgoat ranger leaves dudes behind, but he's still a 3/3 that can evasively hit for 5. wurmcoil engine isn't going to go away completely, but you are going to limit the lifegain and two 3/3s will be much easier to deal with in combat. so i don't think those targets should be completely discounted, and there's a lot of them.
in the end, i still feel like putrefy has an edge over this card in an unpowered cube. it's pretty close, but there's a substantial number of targets that i'd happily pay 1 more to not lose to.
for reference, here are the targets in my own list:
I mean, Abrupt Decay hitting Rancor is a play but it's not one that is going to make me want to run the card over Putrefy.
Just giving a quick lookover, it seems like most of Putrefy's targets are worthwhile, while a bunch of Abrupt Decay's aren't...
Animate Dead, Necromancy, Survival of the Fittest, Sylvan Library, Phyrexian Arena, Liliana of the Veil and Pernicious Deed are all in green/black, so these are less likely to be found on the other side of the table. Moreover, Animate Dead and Necromancy are kind of boarderline because Putrefy will kill the creature anyway unless it has shroud/hexproof.
Hmm, I might actually prefer Putrefy over Abrupt Decay. The extra mana might be worth all the extra important targets. Dying to a fatty is more likely than me having the Abrupt Decay for Sulfuric Vortex.
No question that Abrupt Decay will be an all-star in other formats, but 2cmc vs 3cmc is often not as big a deal in cube.
I think it's a lot closer than we were originally making it out to be, which makes it drop a few slots in my estimation.
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I think its pretty close, one less mana, but it cannot kill very many finishers. I would personally not worry about the one mana, since green decks in my cube generally get out more mana than non green decks. I prefer the versatility over the one mana and cannot be countered. There are only a handful of enchantments/ PW that cost 3 or less in my cube. Its really hard to say one is better than the other.
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