So basically you have to get something like Wrath of God, Day of Judgment or Catastrophe for this work. So what you do is not play Desolation Angel turn 7. If you get him in your hand you wait until you have Wrath effect first. You don't play your Wrath effect before you have Desolation Angel. There has been at least one or two times where we ended up having both Day Judgment and Wrath in the same draft. I have Wrath of God, Day Judgment and Catastrophe in my cube. What if you don't get any Wrath type of effect? Do you still play Desolation Angel?
No. You don't need a Wrath first at all. You play Desolation Angel when you have 7 mana and win. It's not an aggro card because it costs 7 mana. It's a mid-range or control card. I prefer it in mid-range the most, where both players are developing their boards and then you play the Angel and win the game. If you're behind or even on the board, the Angel puts you ahead and then seals off their mana sources.
I like it FAR more than Vault or Angel of Despair.
A) It does an effect not generally given to Black and White, which is to deal direct damage to creature or player. Everyone knows the uses of this.
B) It's useful in 1v1 setting, but great in multiplayer formats like 2 Headed Giant, Star, etc.
C) Lifegain is gravy, and creates a damage gap that can just win you games.
Honestly I've found it's great in all the archetypes, and is splashed quite often for.
So I'm just wondering has anyone tested this card in there cube at all and what were their results? I do know that it's easier to fit in for me cause Desolation Angel was cut awhile ago (High amount of aggro players/Lots of new players play with our cube/Played around a lot and swingy) opening up a space of a well loved card that just didn't fit with my playgroup.
A) It does an effect not generally given to Black and White, which is to deal direct damage to creature or player. Everyone knows the uses of this.
B) It's useful in 1v1 setting, but great in multiplayer formats like 2 Headed Giant, Star, etc.
C) Lifegain is gravy, and creates a damage gap that can just win you games.
Honestly I've found it's great in all the archetypes, and is splashed quite often for.
So I'm just wondering has anyone tested this card in there cube at all and what were their results? I do know that it's easier to fit in for me cause Desolation Angel was cut awhile ago (High amount of aggro players/Lots of new players play with our cube/Played around a lot and swingy) opening up a space of a well loved card that just didn't fit with my playgroup.
Cheers,
RJ
The XR burn spells have already become less and less valuable over the last two years, and this one is A) a turn slower and B) almost impossible to play in ramp. At five mana, I get a Lightning Helix, so really this card only becomes good when you have 8 or more mana available.
A) It does an effect not generally given to Black and White, which is to deal direct damage to creature or player. Everyone knows the uses of this.
B) It's useful in 1v1 setting, but great in multiplayer formats like 2 Headed Giant, Star, etc.
C) Lifegain is gravy, and creates a damage gap that can just win you games.
Honestly I've found it's great in all the archetypes, and is splashed quite often for.
So I'm just wondering has anyone tested this card in there cube at all and what were their results? I do know that it's easier to fit in for me cause Desolation Angel was cut awhile ago (High amount of aggro players/Lots of new players play with our cube/Played around a lot and swingy) opening up a space of a well loved card that just didn't fit with my playgroup.
Cheers,
RJ
Always nice to see another Canucklehead on the boards.
I have a larger cube and Death Grasp was in initially. Honestly, it's cute and looks powerful but it is just a little too slow for the cube format. It may be better in Dragon cubes, but in that case there are other cards I would want to play ahead of it. If you don't like Desolation Angel try either Angel of Despair or my personal favourite (though I cut it from my cube sadly): Debtors' Knell as a large swingy game ender.
I used to have Death Grasp in my cube when it was a) slower and b) used more for multiplayer. Particularly in multiplayer it could deal a fair bit of damage as the game went long and help give a good life buffer, but it became less and less good as the cube became more aggressive.
Even in a slow and/ or multiplayer cube I'd run Debtors Knell over it.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
@Phantizzle: If this card was in red I'd totally agree. But it's not, which leads to a totally different basis of comparison IMO. The creature base is different, the lifegain is more relevant, and the abundance of like cards in that color pie is none.
@Fidelis: I know eh? I had debtor's knell in my cube for a long time, but cut it awhile ago, just because it was too slow. I run around a 540+ cube (I believe 10-15 cards more than that), with strong aggro support.
@Humpty: Honestly I find the power in it is the versatility gained within those colors that is not normally there.
I guess why our playgroup likes this card so much is cause:
a) Lifegain. With aggro being strongly supported, and black having an abundance of self damaging cards, this utility is never really going to waste, especially when tacked onto direct damage.
b) Can deal with planeswalkers in black, which has always been a weakness of that color in cube.
c) Combat damage math that didn't exist before, now exists, and makes alpha striking a lot easier.
d) Seems slow, but the versatility, and the fact that it is useful whenever you can get it online (3cc, which isn't the best use, but sometime you gotta second main phase ping a creature) makes it nice. I've never found disliking having the card in my hand. Your always gonna be able to make a play with it that's gonna be beneficial. I usually save it in my hand (as the card does get double the value per mana investment) as a trump card for when I run into something I can't deal with using the other cards in my hand.
@Phantizzle: If this card was in red I'd totally agree. But it's not, which leads to a totally different basis of comparison IMO. The creature base is different, the lifegain is more relevant, and the abundance of like cards in that color pie is none.
I guess why our playgroup likes this card so much is cause:
a) Lifegain. With aggro being strongly supported, and black having an abundance of self damaging cards, this utility is never really going to waste, especially when tacked onto direct damage.
b) Can deal with planeswalkers in black, which has always been a weakness of that color in cube.
c) Combat damage math that didn't exist before, now exists, and makes alpha striking a lot easier.
d) Seems slow, but the versatility, and the fact that it is useful whenever you can get it online (3cc, which isn't the best use, but sometime you gotta second main phase ping a creature) makes it nice. I've never found disliking having the card in my hand. Your always gonna be able to make a play with it that's gonna be beneficial. I usually save it in my hand (as the card does get double the value per mana investment) as a trump card for when I run into something I can't deal with using the other cards in my hand.
I might agree with you, if we were talking about a black card, but we are talking about a BW card, and so your deck has access to much better lifegain and walker removal (sometimes in the same card with Faith's Fetters). It certainly doesn't help that black and white have amazing (and cheap) creature removal, which limits the cards versatility.
Either way, I'm not here to talk you out of a card that is working for you, just explaining why we don't run it.
@Phantizzle: Don't worry I'm not one to get personal about someone else just giving input. I tend to come on strong about differing opinions, but that's only because I want a full depth analysis so I can make the right choice. If anything, I would prefer you to "talk me out of a card," cause that gives me the some insight I might not have seen, and my mind is never set. And as I would like to be "talked out of a card," I like to try to "talk into a card." I honestly think with the current way cube setups are being run, a lot of you need to retry Death Grasp. Don't expect you too, but if I convince 1 person, and he likes it, and no one else minds, than I'm happy :D.
(Sorry long winded, but new to forums, and just wanted to explain my mindset so there's no confusion on where my feelings or thoughts lie in future conversation.)
Wtwlf, I saw that you're running Gerrard's Verdict in your guild section. How good has that been for your playgroup?
I've been considering replacing Angel of Despair with Desolation Angel for a long time and I think the discussion here has led me to it finally. I'm also looking for a cut for Debtor's Knell because I've only ever seen it come online once before in over a year of cubing with it.
Gerrard's Verdict is awesome. It hits 2 cards for 2 mana, and recovers significant life at the same time. It plays to black's gameplan and covers its weakness simultaneously.
Wtwlf, I saw that you're running Gerrard's Verdict in your guild section. How good has that been for your playgroup?
I've been considering replacing Angel of Despair with Desolation Angel for a long time and I think the discussion here has led me to it finally. I'm also looking for a cut for Debtor's Knell because I've only ever seen it come online once before in over a year of cubing with it.
Might I recommend running neither? The last thing BW needs in a small or medium cube is more expensive fatties especially when they are crap in reanimation, like Desolation Angel. Hell, we are on the verge of cutting Kokusho and have already cut Yosei, so more 6+ drops is not the answer. To your section I would recommend:
I have a soft spot for Desolation Angel, but I can definitely vouch for Lingering Souls and Gerrard's Verdict, and I would highly recommend playing both.
Verdict is the nut. It is absolutely awesome and needed in the BW Aggro-disrupt/stax/pox type decks, and is one of the very few cards in Cube that always 2-1s for only two mana (there are a few more that CAN 2-1, but not always).
I ran Death Grasp for a long time, but it is too slow and too outclassed now. Desolation Angel, however, is also the nut. Even if you are 'behind' on board, you are getting a 5/4 flier along with your Armageddon!
I'm considering adding Obzedat, the Ghost Council, but any cuts in this guild are just heartbreaking. Should I cut the Verdict?
Cheers,
rant
Cut desolation angel unless it's a pet card, in which case I wouldn't add obzedat. I think unburial rites is a much cooler card than obzedat anyways, and I run that as my #4.
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I'll say that Obzedat, Ghost Council is on my short list of GTC cards to add to my cube. I'm a bit short on BW right now, so it would be an easy add until something better comes along.
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If you play a lot of Esper mid-range and control, Unburial Rites is strong, and important for the Gifts package. If you play a lot of WB aggro decks, the Verdict will give you more mileage by far. We play more WB aggro, so we like Verdict.
No. You don't need a Wrath first at all. You play Desolation Angel when you have 7 mana and win. It's not an aggro card because it costs 7 mana. It's a mid-range or control card. I prefer it in mid-range the most, where both players are developing their boards and then you play the Angel and win the game. If you're behind or even on the board, the Angel puts you ahead and then seals off their mana sources.
I like it FAR more than Vault or Angel of Despair.
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If your group doesn't like Desolation Angel, why not run Tidehollow Sculler there? Or Mortify. Or Orzhov Charm. Etc.
Actually what you should be running is Vault of the Archangel.
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Death Grasp
A) It does an effect not generally given to Black and White, which is to deal direct damage to creature or player. Everyone knows the uses of this.
B) It's useful in 1v1 setting, but great in multiplayer formats like 2 Headed Giant, Star, etc.
C) Lifegain is gravy, and creates a damage gap that can just win you games.
Honestly I've found it's great in all the archetypes, and is splashed quite often for.
So I'm just wondering has anyone tested this card in there cube at all and what were their results? I do know that it's easier to fit in for me cause Desolation Angel was cut awhile ago (High amount of aggro players/Lots of new players play with our cube/Played around a lot and swingy) opening up a space of a well loved card that just didn't fit with my playgroup.
Cheers,
RJ
My 450 Cube
The XR burn spells have already become less and less valuable over the last two years, and this one is A) a turn slower and B) almost impossible to play in ramp. At five mana, I get a Lightning Helix, so really this card only becomes good when you have 8 or more mana available.
Always nice to see another Canucklehead on the boards.
I have a larger cube and Death Grasp was in initially. Honestly, it's cute and looks powerful but it is just a little too slow for the cube format. It may be better in Dragon cubes, but in that case there are other cards I would want to play ahead of it. If you don't like Desolation Angel try either Angel of Despair or my personal favourite (though I cut it from my cube sadly): Debtors' Knell as a large swingy game ender.
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Even in a slow and/ or multiplayer cube I'd run Debtors Knell over it.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
@Fidelis: I know eh? I had debtor's knell in my cube for a long time, but cut it awhile ago, just because it was too slow. I run around a 540+ cube (I believe 10-15 cards more than that), with strong aggro support.
@Humpty: Honestly I find the power in it is the versatility gained within those colors that is not normally there.
I guess why our playgroup likes this card so much is cause:
a) Lifegain. With aggro being strongly supported, and black having an abundance of self damaging cards, this utility is never really going to waste, especially when tacked onto direct damage.
b) Can deal with planeswalkers in black, which has always been a weakness of that color in cube.
c) Combat damage math that didn't exist before, now exists, and makes alpha striking a lot easier.
d) Seems slow, but the versatility, and the fact that it is useful whenever you can get it online (3cc, which isn't the best use, but sometime you gotta second main phase ping a creature) makes it nice. I've never found disliking having the card in my hand. Your always gonna be able to make a play with it that's gonna be beneficial. I usually save it in my hand (as the card does get double the value per mana investment) as a trump card for when I run into something I can't deal with using the other cards in my hand.
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I might agree with you, if we were talking about a black card, but we are talking about a BW card, and so your deck has access to much better lifegain and walker removal (sometimes in the same card with Faith's Fetters). It certainly doesn't help that black and white have amazing (and cheap) creature removal, which limits the cards versatility.
Either way, I'm not here to talk you out of a card that is working for you, just explaining why we don't run it.
(Sorry long winded, but new to forums, and just wanted to explain my mindset so there's no confusion on where my feelings or thoughts lie in future conversation.)
Cheers,
RJ
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I've been considering replacing Angel of Despair with Desolation Angel for a long time and I think the discussion here has led me to it finally. I'm also looking for a cut for Debtor's Knell because I've only ever seen it come online once before in over a year of cubing with it.
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Might I recommend running neither? The last thing BW needs in a small or medium cube is more expensive fatties especially when they are crap in reanimation, like Desolation Angel. Hell, we are on the verge of cutting Kokusho and have already cut Yosei, so more 6+ drops is not the answer. To your section I would recommend:
- Angel of Despair
- Debtors' Knell
- Tidehollow Sculler
+ Lingering Souls
+ Unburial Riites
+ Gerrard's Verdict
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I'm considering adding Obzedat, the Ghost Council, but any cuts in this guild are just heartbreaking. Should I cut the Verdict?
Cheers,
rant
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I ran Death Grasp for a long time, but it is too slow and too outclassed now. Desolation Angel, however, is also the nut. Even if you are 'behind' on board, you are getting a 5/4 flier along with your Armageddon!
-AA
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Cut desolation angel unless it's a pet card, in which case I wouldn't add obzedat. I think unburial rites is a much cooler card than obzedat anyways, and I run that as my #4.
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