Green and white already have plenty of cubable disenchant effects. I like the value that cavaliers bring.
No problem, I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the Cavs being better than Sundering Growth, when the mono colored version of Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers are not cubeable (or borderline at best) while the mono colored versions of Sundering Growth are in almost every cube. Apologies if that wasn't clear. I guess none of those creatures have vigilance, but I don't think I'm underrating that ability.
No problem, I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the Cavs being better than Sundering Growth, when the mono colored version of Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers are not cubeable (or borderline at best) while the mono colored versions of Sundering Growth are in almost every cube. Apologies if that wasn't clear. I guess none of those creatures have vigilance, but I don't think I'm underrating that ability.
I guess I should add that I don't personally find disenchant variants used very much. To my group they are fringe cubeable and we don't have very many. If anything it would be in the "necessary for Cube balance" list and not the "best of" list.
If Wilt-Leaf was GG1 or WW1 I think he might get played.
No problem, I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the Cavs being better than Sundering Growth, when the mono colored version of Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers are not cubeable (or borderline at best) while the mono colored versions of Sundering Growth are in almost every cube. Apologies if that wasn't clear. I guess none of those creatures have vigilance, but I don't think I'm underrating that ability.
Ah, I see your point now.
To me, the disenchant effects are played because they're necessary. They won't get played by every deck (or even mainboarded in some cases), but they need to be in the draft pool.
Since green and white already have ample disenchant spells / creatures, I wouldn't want to take up a hybrid slot with another boring (yet effective!) disenchant spell. I would want a card like cavaliers because of the impact it has on combat.
To me, the disenchant effects are played because they're necessary. They won't get played by every deck (or even mainboarded in some cases), but they need to be in the draft pool.
Since green and white already have ample disenchant spells / creatures, I wouldn't want to take up a hybrid slot with another boring (yet effective!) disenchant spell. I would want a card like cavaliers because of the impact it has on combat.
Ahh. I think this is why we differ. If we were talking about gold cards, I would agree. My hybrid section though, has no limit, and I would gladly cut one or two mono colored cards for a hybrid of the same effect.
Ahh. I think this is why we differ. If we were talking about gold cards, I would agree. My hybrid section though, has no limit, and I would gladly cut one or two mono colored cards for a hybrid of the same effect.
I just looked at your cubelist and your Phlex section is interesting. It's an easier way than trying to find a more traditional place for hybrids.
Have you considered Snakeform? My experience with that card has been so good that I threw it into my green section when my Simic section couldn't support it anymore.
I just looked at your cubelist and your Phlex section is interesting. It's an easier way than trying to find a more traditional place for hybrids.
Have you considered Snakeform? My experience with that card has been so good that I threw it into my green section when my Simic section couldn't support it anymore.
Although i don't have my cube list on the forums yet, (possibly should be up within the next week or so) I run Snakeform in my cube and have had great success with it.
Ahh. I think this is why we differ. If we were talking about gold cards, I would agree. My hybrid section though, has no limit, and I would gladly cut one or two mono colored cards for a hybrid of the same effect.
When a card starts to cost more than one hybrid mana the picture is altered,
Sundering Growth costs GG, WG, or WW. Any of those three mana costs are significantly more delimiting than W1 or G1. And we're talking about an effect that barely makes it (imho) at those more splashable costs.
One mana hybrids I agree on totally as well as impact hybrids that cost double mana. But Sundering Growth isn't either of those.
(neither is Wilt-Leaf Cavalier, but its still leagues better than Sundering Growth..even when you add in the contextual considerations)
Sundering Growth costs GG, WG, or WW. Any of those three mana costs are significantly more delimiting than W1 or G1. And we're talking about an effect that barely makes it (imho) at those more splashable costs.
Agreed. What draws me to Disenchant is not necessarily the 2cc, but the simple 1W cost. It's nice to habe the effect be easy to cast when white is a secondary color for decks looking for answers to artifacts and enchantments. In decks that can comfortably play WW and GG spells, I think there are better options for dealing with those kinds of permanents. But a blue or black deck using a small suite of white spells relies on that splashable cost to get reliable value from the spell.
When a card starts to cost more than one hybrid mana the picture is altered,
Sundering Growth costs GG, WG, orWW. Any of those three mana costs are significantly more delimiting than W1 or G1. And we're talking about an effect that barely makes it (imho) at those more splashable costs.
One mana hybrids I agree on totally as well as impact hybrids that cost double mana. But Sundering Growth isn't either of those.
(neither is Wilt-Leaf Cavalier, but its still leagues better than Sundering Growth..even when you add in the contextual considerations)
I bolded the word or, because Disenchant doesn't cost W1orG1, and neither does Naturalize. Sundering Growth may not have a more flexible when compared to both Naturalize AND Disenchant, but (our) cube flexibility doesn't really work like that. This is especially good when you want to push flexibility in your cube, and often draft with smaller groups, or do a lot of Winston/Winchester/Sealed. If you are doing 8 man boosters or roasts 90% of the time, this card is (probably) not ideal, though I think it still might be better than Disenchant/Naturalize because you can build around the upside.
As for "impact hybrid", I literally have no idea what you mean. Sundering Growth is a solid effect, at a cost that is obviously cubeable, that goes in more decks than the two cards it is most comparable to, AND it has upside on top of that. Seems impactful to me, espcially if it means I can cut Disenchant, Naturalize, or both.
Wilt-Leaf Cavalier seems to suffer from the same mana issue as Sundering Growth, only much, much worse, as A) it is yet another colored mana, and B) unlike a disenchant effect, it gets much, much worse with every passing turn.
So in one corner we have a more mana restrictive, possibly worse version of cards that don't even make the cube, and that is a better card than a more flexible but occasionally more mana restrictive version of cards that every cube runs, only with more upside?
I think the flexibility of Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers pushes it above the hard-cost GGG and WWW 3cc creatures (at least the ones we currently have), but it still isn't playable in a 2-color deck outside of Selesnya. A Boros deck or Simic deck would really have to be hurting for playable spells in order for it to make the cut. It helps out lean Sealed pools, but I can't see it ever making a final 40 in a regular draft deck (or even a winston deck).
No problem, I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the Cavs being better than Sundering Growth, when the mono colored version of Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers are not cubeable (or borderline at best) while the mono colored versions of Sundering Growth are in almost every cube. Apologies if that wasn't clear. I guess none of those creatures have vigilance, but I don't think I'm underrating that ability.
I guess I should add that I don't personally find disenchant variants used very much. To my group they are fringe cubeable and we don't have very many. If anything it would be in the "necessary for Cube balance" list and not the "best of" list.
If Wilt-Leaf was GG1 or WW1 I think he might get played.
Ah, I see your point now.
To me, the disenchant effects are played because they're necessary. They won't get played by every deck (or even mainboarded in some cases), but they need to be in the draft pool.
Since green and white already have ample disenchant spells / creatures, I wouldn't want to take up a hybrid slot with another boring (yet effective!) disenchant spell. I would want a card like cavaliers because of the impact it has on combat.
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Ahh. I think this is why we differ. If we were talking about gold cards, I would agree. My hybrid section though, has no limit, and I would gladly cut one or two mono colored cards for a hybrid of the same effect.
I just looked at your cubelist and your Phlex section is interesting. It's an easier way than trying to find a more traditional place for hybrids.
Have you considered Snakeform? My experience with that card has been so good that I threw it into my green section when my Simic section couldn't support it anymore.
My Legacy-Legal Cube <--- Draft It!
wtwlf123's Classic Cube
Lanxal's Pauper Cube
Cubers, UNITE! Don't forget to post your cube location on The Great Cube Map Thread
It's in there (3 drop).
Whoops; I just assumed you weren't.
Good. I'm glad there is at least one other person on this forum that's using that card.
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When a card starts to cost more than one hybrid mana the picture is altered,
Sundering Growth costs GG, WG, or WW. Any of those three mana costs are significantly more delimiting than W1 or G1. And we're talking about an effect that barely makes it (imho) at those more splashable costs.
One mana hybrids I agree on totally as well as impact hybrids that cost double mana. But Sundering Growth isn't either of those.
(neither is Wilt-Leaf Cavalier, but its still leagues better than Sundering Growth..even when you add in the contextual considerations)
Agreed. What draws me to Disenchant is not necessarily the 2cc, but the simple 1W cost. It's nice to habe the effect be easy to cast when white is a secondary color for decks looking for answers to artifacts and enchantments. In decks that can comfortably play WW and GG spells, I think there are better options for dealing with those kinds of permanents. But a blue or black deck using a small suite of white spells relies on that splashable cost to get reliable value from the spell.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I bolded the word or, because Disenchant doesn't cost W1 or G1, and neither does Naturalize. Sundering Growth may not have a more flexible when compared to both Naturalize AND Disenchant, but (our) cube flexibility doesn't really work like that. This is especially good when you want to push flexibility in your cube, and often draft with smaller groups, or do a lot of Winston/Winchester/Sealed. If you are doing 8 man boosters or roasts 90% of the time, this card is (probably) not ideal, though I think it still might be better than Disenchant/Naturalize because you can build around the upside.
As for "impact hybrid", I literally have no idea what you mean. Sundering Growth is a solid effect, at a cost that is obviously cubeable, that goes in more decks than the two cards it is most comparable to, AND it has upside on top of that. Seems impactful to me, espcially if it means I can cut Disenchant, Naturalize, or both.
Wilt-Leaf Cavalier seems to suffer from the same mana issue as Sundering Growth, only much, much worse, as A) it is yet another colored mana, and B) unlike a disenchant effect, it gets much, much worse with every passing turn.
So in one corner we have a more mana restrictive, possibly worse version of cards that don't even make the cube, and that is a better card than a more flexible but occasionally more mana restrictive version of cards that every cube runs, only with more upside?
Again, I am failing to see how this is that case.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!