Where do these guys fit in black? Same with dauthi horror and whatnot. I have these in my cube and nobody ever takes them. Am I missing something about them? I don't see a reason to play them over better aggro colors, or to use them in more controlly black.
The reason to use them is so you can play B/R aggro, W/B aggro, U/B tempo, G/B aggro (if you use green aggro). If nobody picks them then you should either take them out and add other stuff, or force black aggro and beat people to show them how good the deck can be. It could also be that you don't have enough support and that is aggro's biggest problem. You have to dedicate a lot of slots to make aggro work.
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I removed black agro from my cube entirely because I think it's a weaker option than red and white. Red has burn which doubles for removal and late game reach (making red more versatile in this area even if their creatures aren't better). And white has much better and more efficient creatures that have a lot of synergy with each other (along with great cheap removal). Black just can't compete.
I think that's why black agro tends to get under drafted in most cubes.
Black has the lowest curve and the highest win percentage in aggro decks of any colour in my cube. So there's that. Here's why:
It's the only colour that has hand disruption, which is an extremely efficient way of dealing with any problem card for aggro.
It has some fantastic aggro cards at every curve point.
It has a load of quality 2 power one drops with no or negligible drawbacks.
Some of its best cards - Bob, Blossom, Twist - are at their best in aggro. All of its lifeloss cards are drawbackless in a sufficiently aggro shell.
It's got kill effects for the most resilient of finishers on the other side of the table, and sacrifice for the hexproof ones.
Its drawing power is second only to blue.
If you run the Pox/mono-black support, all of those cards are insane with aggro. If I had more than 2 players most of the time, I'd include them.
Oh yeah, there's also the likes of Nether Void and Sinkhole which are high tier support cards.
So that's my two cents. There are numerous threads about this stuff. I'll play black aggro with a white or green splash for artifact and enchantment removal over any other option.
I love the 2/2 for B squad, they're all much better in combat than white's gang of 2/1 for W. They also work much better with Skullclamp and against Forked Bolt effects. I'm still learning about what makes black aggro good but from what I've found it's:
- the two power one drops
- hand disruption
- land disruption (T1: sarcomancy, T2: sinkhole is very oppressive)
- the old and crazy powerful artifacts like Ankh of Mishra, Winter Orb (this card is insane in B and/or W aggro), tangle wire
I think as Wizards prints more and more cards black aggro will become more powerful, because there is certainly a lot of room for improvement.
Red aggro is obviously the best as the burn spells are so efficient and the creatures are catching up quickly. Their 4 drops are easily the best of the bunch.
White aggro is close behind but lacks as much reach as red has but is catching up in that department with 3cmc Ajani, the new Exalted Angel and Hero of Bladehold.
Black has some VERY op cards but lacks solid cards all around. Necropotence has certainly showed us its power as well as Pox has but the creatures need more reach.
At least, that's how I feel about it. Don't get me wrong, I love B/x aggro. But I'm not a fan of the mono version. When it comes to pure Black aggro, i'd rather lean on things like Nantuko Shade than Carnophage. I'm fine with 'Black aggro' being between aggro and mid-range: a little slower and bigger than the former, and a little smaller and faster than the latter.
Black aggro does not equal mono black aggro. The latter is really hard to pull off and I can see how people will quickly get frustrated trying it. The former however will be quite good if you give it enough support. Goodking lists good reasons for it being good. Can I say good once more? Good.
The crux of the matter is: You do have to give this archetype enough support. Throwing five aggro critters into black won't lead to successful BX aggro decks. Better include more of those creatures or don't include any at all. This is not an archetype to be half-assed about.
I'm keeping the 1cc and 2cc black cards in my cube. I have at least 4 1cc cards including Sarcomancy which most consider a creature. I have around 8 2cc cards in my cube including Nantuko Shade, Oona's Prowler and Pack Rat. The other day I cubed with 2 other people and got pack rat. I don't think I fully understood how he is used. I was told you don't play anything else other than maybe lands. You keep discarding cards and making copies of Pack Rat. He can win you the game if not answered.
I have my cube set up so you there is aggro cards in Red, White and Black. Red and White have the stronger aggro creatures. I'm trying to make black aggro viable. I think there are enough cards to do so. Green and Blue are the two hardest colors to push aggro. I have a few aggro cards in green and blue. In green I have cards such as Vinelasher Kudzu, Strangleroot Geist, Skinshifter and River Boa.
So... You're saying black aggro is awesome but you want to keep it a secret from everyone? If that's not what you meant, I think this reference doesn't really make sense here. or are you not quoting a new hope?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Why said anything about mono-black? We're talking about Black aggro. Which equates to B/X or X/B aggro.
Lately, I've been wondering why people disproportionally talk about mono-color archetypes in cube (with regards to how often they're played) and wondering if it's either trying to distill a color into its purest essence or discussion from cubes like the MTGO cube coloring peoples' impressions.
Like when someone tells me that mono-black aggro is bad in cube, my initial response is "...and?"
Black Aggro has some truly amazing cards but at times I too question if the sum is greater than its parts. The key thing to keep in mind is that black aggro is a balls-to-the-walls style of play. My friend IceBear and I deem B/x as "play angry.dec". R/B aggro is the essential "play angry" style. Absolutely go nuts on the opponent.
I would argue W/x aggro naturally transitions to midrange with white's 4 and 5 drops. Black on the other hand needs to rip you apart by turn 3/4 or else it quickly gets overwhelmed. The key to its success is support cards. This is where bitterblossom, sink hole, discard, and even reanimation spells assist the archetype. You can also just pair it with the other colors within the cube. The more aggressive the color the better (insert red or white for weenie rush).
All the staple B = 2/2 dudes are amazing. Then you toss in Gravecrawler and it gets silly. Surprised nobody mentioned Bloodghast, who is the epitome of black aggro (alongside Bob). Snuff Out, Dismember, Go for the Throat = all extremely efficient removal. Between discard, efficient removal, and pain-for-card-advantage choices, black aggro is very good. Again, the key is giving drafters the choice of running into complementary spells.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I assume that no one is really talking about them since the conversation seems centered around the 1-mana guys.
[Funnily and completely off-topically, I remember one of the first cubes here, which was super dragony, included Ghost-Lit Stalker as a black 1-drop. Bonus points if you don't have to click on the link to remember it.]
Just the other night me & a fellow Cuber went through the Cube and built the best mono-black aggro deck we could (including Mox Jet, Strip Mine, Wasteland & Wargear along with the "best" aggro cards). We played it against two decks that we had just grid drafted. The mono-black deck won most of the games but it rarely felt like a blowout & it rarely felt like the mono-black deck was crushing the opponent. If we had built the "best" deck in the 3 other aggro colors or the "best" control/reanimator/etc deck and played it against typical 2-man draft decks then I feel like the games wouldn't have been close.
I think the question is just because mono-black aggro isn't as good as I think it should be for Cube, does that mean that B/x or x/B aggro can't be good? Just last week I had a R/B aggro deck where I only have a handful of black cards (two 1-drops, Bob & a few others) and Bob was insane. Just because black is the "support" color in an aggro deck, does that mean it's not worth supporting?
I'm thinking of trying a pox/value package in black but that would probably mean cutting black aggro support. My cuts for this would be:
Obviously the 1-drops are great aggro cards but the rest of those cards range from mediocre to above-average.
I'm not 100% on making these changes but the fact that I'm even considering it is disappointing. I'm a huge fan of aggro in Cube & dropping it from black is not what I want to do but it may be what's ultimately best for my Cube.
Lately, I've been wondering why people disproportionally talk about mono-color archetypes in cube (with regards to how often they're played) and wondering if it's either trying to distill a color into its purest essence or discussion from cubes like the MTGO cube coloring peoples' impressions.
Like when someone tells me that mono-black aggro is bad in cube, my initial response is "...and?"
Agreed. Most mono-colour decks are reasonably subpar in my experience, particularly in the aggro theatre. Mono-R aggro is probably a little better than mono-W or mono-B aggro but it's not something that should occupy much of our time to discuss, really. All our successful aggro decks tend to be two colours, sometimes with a splash. B/W is typically the strongest of these and would outgun mono-R most times out of ten.
Cube is not really an environment that lends itself to very strong mono decks and people shouldn't expect them to be heavily represented. Mono-G, for example, is relatively atrocious in my experience but that's irrelevant; the colour is still plenty strong.
I'm down with most of your cuts except Dauthi Marauder. That guy is a house. I deal 9-12 damage with him on a regular basis. Sure, you side him out against red some of hte time, but most often he just gets in there and gets the job done more efficiently than anybody else
You can cut all the crossed out ones and probably improve your black aggro package. None of those are particularly good.
Yeah, if you run a 320 cards cube, you don't need them. Try running 500+ cards. Then you just have to include those creatures, because you won't find better ones.
Yeah, if you run a 320 cards cube, you don't need them. Try running 500+ cards. Then you just have to include those creatures, because you won't find better ones.
Thanks for correcting me, as it looks like I gave bad advice there. It's easy to have a skewed perspective on other cube sizes. That's why we see a lot of stuff like:
'Of course I would even play this at 360'
(Have you tried writing a 360 list?!)
and
'This definitely makes the cut at 720'
(The quality at 720 is still really high and it's hard to break into, so it's easy for those with smaller sizes to underpredict.)
I personally think that it's really difficult to look at a card and say 'yeah, I would actually run this at XXX, where XXX is any cube size other than my own' with any accuracy. So, my apologies if those are needed at 500.
Thanks for correcting me, as it looks like I gave bad advice there. It's easy to have a skewed perspective on other cube sizes. That's why we see a lot of stuff like:
'Of course I would even play this at 360'
(Have you tried writing a 360 list?!)
and
'This definitely makes the cut at 720'
(The quality at 720 is still really high and it's hard to break into, so it's easy for those with smaller sizes to underpredict.)
I personally think that it's really difficult to look at a card and say 'yeah, I would actually run this at XXX, where XXX is any cube size other than my own' with any accuracy. So, my apologies if those are needed at 500.
I actually agree with your comment even for a 810 card cube. Those cards just can't compete with other colors similar cards. If you have to play those to enforce black aggro, you should really just cut black aggro instead and add better cards.
So no apology needed for me with my 810 card cube. I think you hit the nail on the head perfectly.
I actually agree with your comment even for a 810 card cube. Those cards just can't compete with other colors similar cards. If you have to play those to enforce black aggro, you should really just cut black aggro instead and add better cards.
So no apology needed for me with my 810 card cube. I think you hit the nail on the head perfectly.
Black gets pretty awful in a large Cube if don't at least try to support aggro. You don't play black aggro for it's middle-tier cheap creatures. White has muuuch better creatures for the same cost. You play black aggro because of its disruption and some of its cheaper bombs like Braids, Bob, or Pack Rat, and you have to play cards like Nezumi Cutthroat to give your deck threat density and a decent clock. Black aggro decks are great if they are supported by other colors, and the black section would be pretty stale without any of the aggro cards... Usually my black aggro decks are good at doing something else too, like reanimating, recurring threats, and crushing the opponent with oppressive stax/pox effects.
Here's an example of red/black aggro that did pretty well for us. It looks a little funky since we're still experimenting with Goblins but Krenko owns by himself basically.
1. He didn't think Koth of the Hammer fit his deck.
2. He had Winter Orb but we might cut it since its a little worse with moxes in the Cube. Also, recently it seems like Aggro wants to cast 4 drops more often.
3. Tattermunge Maniac is a Goblin; sadly Hellrider is a devil
4. Recruiter does stupid stuff when you can tutor for Warchief into hasted Krenko as your t3 and t4 (or earlier)
5. Enter the Dungeon is such a great aggro tutor (play on the floor) -- its a big incentive to go black
6. Both Loti -- what luck
7. (on edit) he also had some pox cards that he decided against like Smallpox and Abyssal Persecutor. Persecutor is powerful but has to find the perfect home to function properly. As a random musing on other routes black aggro can take.
I thought Smallpox would be good in his deck with Gravecrawler, Bloodghast, Goblin War Marshal and Krenko plus insane acceleration.
Where do these guys fit in black? Same with dauthi horror and whatnot. I have these in my cube and nobody ever takes them. Am I missing something about them? I don't see a reason to play them over better aggro colors, or to use them in more controlly black.
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I think that's why black agro tends to get under drafted in most cubes.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
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So that's my two cents. There are numerous threads about this stuff. I'll play black aggro with a white or green splash for artifact and enchantment removal over any other option.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
- the two power one drops
- hand disruption
- land disruption (T1: sarcomancy, T2: sinkhole is very oppressive)
- the old and crazy powerful artifacts like Ankh of Mishra, Winter Orb (this card is insane in B and/or W aggro), tangle wire
I think as Wizards prints more and more cards black aggro will become more powerful, because there is certainly a lot of room for improvement.
Red aggro is obviously the best as the burn spells are so efficient and the creatures are catching up quickly. Their 4 drops are easily the best of the bunch.
White aggro is close behind but lacks as much reach as red has but is catching up in that department with 3cmc Ajani, the new Exalted Angel and Hero of Bladehold.
Black has some VERY op cards but lacks solid cards all around. Necropotence has certainly showed us its power as well as Pox has but the creatures need more reach.
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At least, that's how I feel about it. Don't get me wrong, I love B/x aggro. But I'm not a fan of the mono version. When it comes to pure Black aggro, i'd rather lean on things like Nantuko Shade than Carnophage. I'm fine with 'Black aggro' being between aggro and mid-range: a little slower and bigger than the former, and a little smaller and faster than the latter.
The crux of the matter is: You do have to give this archetype enough support. Throwing five aggro critters into black won't lead to successful BX aggro decks. Better include more of those creatures or don't include any at all. This is not an archetype to be half-assed about.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I have my cube set up so you there is aggro cards in Red, White and Black. Red and White have the stronger aggro creatures. I'm trying to make black aggro viable. I think there are enough cards to do so. Green and Blue are the two hardest colors to push aggro. I have a few aggro cards in green and blue. In green I have cards such as Vinelasher Kudzu, Strangleroot Geist, Skinshifter and River Boa.
Why said anything about mono-black? We're talking about Black aggro. Which equates to B/X or X/B aggro.
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So... You're saying black aggro is awesome but you want to keep it a secret from everyone? If that's not what you meant, I think this reference doesn't really make sense here. or are you not quoting a new hope?
Lately, I've been wondering why people disproportionally talk about mono-color archetypes in cube (with regards to how often they're played) and wondering if it's either trying to distill a color into its purest essence or discussion from cubes like the MTGO cube coloring peoples' impressions.
Like when someone tells me that mono-black aggro is bad in cube, my initial response is "...and?"
(Also, FWIW, here's a mono-black aggro deck from Evan Erwin's cube, which from what I know is slower than the average cube round these parts, him saying that it beat everyone in a draft, only using to some recurring nightmare shenanigans.)
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
As fas as I'm concerned black aggro includes B/X, X/B and mono-Black. So I don't really understand what you're saying.
I would argue W/x aggro naturally transitions to midrange with white's 4 and 5 drops. Black on the other hand needs to rip you apart by turn 3/4 or else it quickly gets overwhelmed. The key to its success is support cards. This is where bitterblossom, sink hole, discard, and even reanimation spells assist the archetype. You can also just pair it with the other colors within the cube. The more aggressive the color the better (insert red or white for weenie rush).
All the staple B = 2/2 dudes are amazing. Then you toss in Gravecrawler and it gets silly. Surprised nobody mentioned Bloodghast, who is the epitome of black aggro (alongside Bob). Snuff Out, Dismember, Go for the Throat = all extremely efficient removal. Between discard, efficient removal, and pain-for-card-advantage choices, black aggro is very good. Again, the key is giving drafters the choice of running into complementary spells.
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[Funnily and completely off-topically, I remember one of the first cubes here, which was super dragony, included Ghost-Lit Stalker as a black 1-drop. Bonus points if you don't have to click on the link to remember it.]
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
I think the question is just because mono-black aggro isn't as good as I think it should be for Cube, does that mean that B/x or x/B aggro can't be good? Just last week I had a R/B aggro deck where I only have a handful of black cards (two 1-drops, Bob & a few others) and Bob was insane. Just because black is the "support" color in an aggro deck, does that mean it's not worth supporting?
I'm thinking of trying a pox/value package in black but that would probably mean cutting black aggro support. My cuts for this would be:
Obviously the 1-drops are great aggro cards but the rest of those cards range from mediocre to above-average.
I'm not 100% on making these changes but the fact that I'm even considering it is disappointing. I'm a huge fan of aggro in Cube & dropping it from black is not what I want to do but it may be what's ultimately best for my Cube.
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Agreed. Most mono-colour decks are reasonably subpar in my experience, particularly in the aggro theatre. Mono-R aggro is probably a little better than mono-W or mono-B aggro but it's not something that should occupy much of our time to discuss, really. All our successful aggro decks tend to be two colours, sometimes with a splash. B/W is typically the strongest of these and would outgun mono-R most times out of ten.
Cube is not really an environment that lends itself to very strong mono decks and people shouldn't expect them to be heavily represented. Mono-G, for example, is relatively atrocious in my experience but that's irrelevant; the colour is still plenty strong.
You can cut all the crossed out ones and probably improve your black aggro package. None of those are particularly good.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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Yeah, if you run a 320 cards cube, you don't need them. Try running 500+ cards. Then you just have to include those creatures, because you won't find better ones.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Thanks for correcting me, as it looks like I gave bad advice there. It's easy to have a skewed perspective on other cube sizes. That's why we see a lot of stuff like:
'Of course I would even play this at 360'
(Have you tried writing a 360 list?!)
and
'This definitely makes the cut at 720'
(The quality at 720 is still really high and it's hard to break into, so it's easy for those with smaller sizes to underpredict.)
I personally think that it's really difficult to look at a card and say 'yeah, I would actually run this at XXX, where XXX is any cube size other than my own' with any accuracy. So, my apologies if those are needed at 500.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I actually agree with your comment even for a 810 card cube. Those cards just can't compete with other colors similar cards. If you have to play those to enforce black aggro, you should really just cut black aggro instead and add better cards.
So no apology needed for me with my 810 card cube. I think you hit the nail on the head perfectly.
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Black gets pretty awful in a large Cube if don't at least try to support aggro. You don't play black aggro for it's middle-tier cheap creatures. White has muuuch better creatures for the same cost. You play black aggro because of its disruption and some of its cheaper bombs like Braids, Bob, or Pack Rat, and you have to play cards like Nezumi Cutthroat to give your deck threat density and a decent clock. Black aggro decks are great if they are supported by other colors, and the black section would be pretty stale without any of the aggro cards... Usually my black aggro decks are good at doing something else too, like reanimating, recurring threats, and crushing the opponent with oppressive stax/pox effects.
1 Vampire Lacerator
1 Carnophage
1 Gravecrawler
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Tattermunge Maniac
1 Goblin Recruiter
1 Goblin War Marshal
1 Bloodghast
1 Lightning Mauler
1 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Matron
1 Hellrider
1 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Reckless Charge
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Arc Trail
1 Enter the Dungeon
1 Tangle Wire
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Fireblast
1 Blood Crypt
1 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Blacker Lotus
1 Basic Lands
Some notes on his deck
1. He didn't think Koth of the Hammer fit his deck.
2. He had Winter Orb but we might cut it since its a little worse with moxes in the Cube. Also, recently it seems like Aggro wants to cast 4 drops more often.
3. Tattermunge Maniac is a Goblin; sadly Hellrider is a devil
4. Recruiter does stupid stuff when you can tutor for Warchief into hasted Krenko as your t3 and t4 (or earlier)
5. Enter the Dungeon is such a great aggro tutor (play on the floor) -- its a big incentive to go black
6. Both Loti -- what luck
7. (on edit) he also had some pox cards that he decided against like Smallpox and Abyssal Persecutor. Persecutor is powerful but has to find the perfect home to function properly. As a random musing on other routes black aggro can take.
I thought Smallpox would be good in his deck with Gravecrawler, Bloodghast, Goblin War Marshal and Krenko plus insane acceleration.