"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Yes, mill is not as 'non-interactive' as some would have you believe. Many cards interact with graveyards or can be played from them. That can either benefit you or hurt you in other ways if you mill an opponent.
That said, the mill from this sword has only directly resulted in a loss once. The damage is usually more relevant, although it's great against opponents hiding behind big lifegainers.
SoBaM is the only card I play with a personal errata. We mill for 7 instead of 10.
And we don't play Jace 3.0, it's too much instant win.
This errata makes as much sense as saying that the 2 damage of SoFaI cannot be dealt to players or that the extra damage of SoWaP can never be more than 1. Because those two swords will kill a player just as fast as the "mill 10" part of SoBaM does in most cases.
While the "mill 10" ability of Jace 3.0 is boring and quite uninteractive, the same ability on the sword is not, because it has to connect to a player to work. Artifact removal is far more common than direct planeswalker removal. The creature carrying the sword can be killed. Or it can be blocked. While you only need to save Jace from a single attack, you need to successfully attack with an equipped creature two times to mill just as many cards.
And as others have said, mill is not per se uninteractive, since there are quite a few cards in cube that work with the graveyard or out of the graveyard. Also, even if there are no graveyard interactions present, what is the problem with milling 10 cards? It slightly increases the sword's clock, raising it to a level that two of the other swords already have. No other cards in your deck (or even your whole cube) support a mill strategy? It doesn't matter. Because the sword is already providing this strategy all by itself, while still being perfectly playable if this strategy doesn't work out. It's not like including a single infect card in your cube or something like it.
Everyone who is afraid of SoBaM's milling ability, do yourself a favor: Include the sword without any errata. There is no reason to do otherwise.
I finally own all five of the swords, and have found the sword of body and mind able to provoke a phenom in players wanting to block it ALL costs. the mill is annoying, but some decks play it. However, giving a blocker after the swing is huge.
I love the other swords and would say Sword of War and Peace is very nice too!
I actually find War and piece to be the best sword, or at least in the recent games its been the best. It usually hits for a large chunk of damage and I've been playing a lot of aggro recently. +6/+2 for Equip 2 is really strong.
I think these 5 are the best equipment next to Jitte and Skullclamp. The pump, protection, and two other abilities give aggro decks some mid game chance.
My ranking:
SoFaI - kill and draw
SoLaS - protection from best spot removal colors
SoBaM - produces something to equip on, mill randomly wins games
SoWaP - no CA, but pure damage
SoFaF - discard may not matter much(may even backfire), as well as untap lands not too useful.
I am about to squeeze the full set into my own cube (just lacking BaM, which shouldn't take long to land).
I generally pick FaI first... card advantage is king. And it lets you draw all the other Swords you drafted faster... right?
I cut SoBaM a while ago. My cube is 270 and we had way too many equipments. However, the players have voted to cut Jitte, so maybe SoBaM will make a comeback.
I actually really like Feast and Famine. Getting to untap your lands is huge. The fact that you can pay 5 mana out of nowhere to get a swing in, then play something else in your second main phase is just brutal. More brutal than what Light and Shadow provides a lot of the time. If anything, I've been more impressed with SoFaF than SoLaS recently. I fully understand that the protections on Light and Shadow are great, and the raise dead ability is great in certain situations, but in all honesty, if I saw both in a pack P1P1, I'm going to be taking the Feast and Famine at this point. My opinions may change in the future, because I've only really personally played either in my cube 20 or fewer times each, (more with SoLaS), which is a small sample set in the scheme of things.
I think all 5 cards are amazing, but our evaluations aren't only heavily reliant on what kind of cube we play, but also the decks we most enjoy drafting. i.e I enjoy aggro a lot right now so i love the pure damage of WaP, some people like untapping all their lands in what i would guess is control or ramp.
Dunno how that adds to the conversation but its interesting to think about.
Yes, mill is not as 'non-interactive' as some would have you believe. Many cards interact with graveyards or can be played from them. That can either benefit you or hurt you in other ways if you mill an opponent.
That said, the mill from this sword has only directly resulted in a loss once. The damage is usually more relevant, although it's great against opponents hiding behind big lifegainers.
I finally own all five of the swords, and have found the sword of body and mind able to provoke a phenom in players wanting to block it ALL costs. the mill is annoying, but some decks play it. However, giving a blocker after the swing is huge.
In one game in our last draft, a player equipped and swung with SoBaM, apologising that it was overpowered in limited and probably was too powerful for cube. His opponent's GB deck was unable to block, and 10 cards hit the yard.
Of those 10 cards, Griselbrand and Acidic Slime (targeting SoBaM) were put into play by Living Death the following turn, with the caster agreeing that yes, SoBaM can be unfair.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Really interesting discussion going on here. Here's my input from an [unpowered] perspective:
IMO Jitte should be included in these topics by proxy because it's basically sword #6. Batterskull is also watching the discussion from the outside but we'll acknowledge that powerhouse as well.
I think Jitte is the best equipment ever made. It's so aggressively costed and does SO MUCH there's no way something comes close to it. Why do I mention Jitte in the X+Y discussion? It provides a solid baseline for power-level.
In my cube, Sword of Body and Mind has given me the best results (consistently). In a vacuum I suppose Fire and Ice or Light and Shadow do the "most", but if I had to connect with any of the 5 X+Y's, I'm rooting for Body and Mind. It's insane. Mill 10 is quite relevant when your starting deck size is 40. IMO the protections are nice + you make a 2/2 wolf friend. I've won too many games off the backs of "okay, I walk through your army and mill 10". It's hard not to account for personal experiences, but I've had way too many positives for Body and Mind. That's my bias and rationale for putting it #1 ahead of the other 3cc swords.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
In one game in our last draft, a player equipped and swung with SoBaM, apologising that it was overpowered in limited and probably was too powerful for cube. His opponent's GB deck was unable to block, and 10 cards hit the yard.
Of those 10 cards, Griselbrand and Acidic Slime (targeting SoBaM) were put into play by Living Death the following turn, with the caster agreeing that yes, SoBaM can be unfair.
I don't have any of the 5 swords in my cube. I thought about adding at least the cheapest of the 5. I thought about adding SoBaM. I think it is better than than SoFoF. I think being able to untap your lands isn't very good. It is only good in you have a bunch of cards in your hand to play. I wasn't sure if I wanted to play SoBaM because it can cheaply mill your opponent if not answered. You could last at least 1-2 turns before you destroy Jitte and still win the game. If you let combat damage through 1-2 turns with SoBam you could still get milled to death. At least you can answer it with artifact removal unlike Jace 3.0. The reason I would play SoBaM because it gives the creature protection from Blue and Green. Those are the colors with the least removal. There aren't many cards that actually give you protection from that color. I already have 5 pro black guys in my cube. I don't need any more pro black creatures. I only have 1 pro green creature and 1 pro blue creature in my cube.
Being able to untap your lands with SoFaF makes it one of the best, actually. Being able to play sword, equip, swing AND play a 5 drop with 5 mana in play is very, very powerful.
Being able to untap your lands with SoFaF makes it one of the best, actually. Being able to play sword, equip, swing AND play a 5 drop with 5 mana in play is very, very powerful.
I agree that this is one of the most powerful things you can do with a sword in the cube environment. The only limiting factor is that in order for this play to occur you need to have that other card to play either post combat, or on the opponents turn. Its for that same reason that Sword of Light and Shadow is not a top tier sword - you need to have a good creature in the graveyard to get the full effect.
Every single sword is capable of broken plays but SoFI and SoBaM are the ones which will make the most consistently excellent plays.
Though I will redirect you to this video from the first time the MTGO cube went online where my unfortunate use of SoBaM leads to a blowout of unfortunate proportions.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I currently run only the original two, as those are the ones I own. I'm considering War and Peace when I next break down and lay out $$ for cube cards. Those are the three best IMO. At 540 I'm hoping to keep them rare enough that my players and I don't tire of them.
Are people rating SoLaS high because of the protections? There are often times when the abilities are irrelevant but you are effectively getting pro: removal (all swords protect against red to an extent by pumping creatures out of burn range).
I think most people would rank the Sword of Light and Shadow somewhere between #3 and #5. I thought it was interesting looking at the MTGO Holiday Cube. They had added the Sword of Light and Shadow and Sword of Feast Famine. Previously they had left those out of the MTGO Cube. I guess they left those out because black doesn't have artifact removal. That is why they left out the 2 swords that give creatures protection from black. The reason I wouldn't run SoLaS or SoFaF because I already have some pro black creatures in my cube.
I don't run any swords in my cube but I was adding a Sword of War and Peace. The Sword of War and Peace works really well against slower decks. If they have a lot of cards in hand it can do lots of damage. I'm guessing most people would rank it #5 or one of the worst swords. Sword of War Peace is not very good late game. If your opponent has no cards in hand it doesn't do much. I would think most people rank Sword of Body and Mind as #2 Sword. Being able to mill your opponent is really good. You could end up milling them at any time. Cards like SoWaP and SoFaF are better earlier in the game when players have full hands. If people have empty hands both of those swords aren't very useful. Late in the game you are mostly giving a creature +2/+2 and protections. That is it.
I think people underestimate the value of untapping all your lands from Feast and Famine, especially if you are playing a deck that values playing instants. Even just having double mana to cast creatures for a turn is impressive, and it generates CA!
I think people underestimate the value of untapping all your lands from Feast and Famine, especially if you are playing a deck that values playing instants. Even just having double mana to cast creatures for a turn is impressive, and it generates CA!
-AA
I think most people would rank it 4th or 5th best sword in cube. I could see it being better than the SoWaP. They untap their lands and play more creatures. They are probably thinking their opponent doesn't have some sort of mass removal spell. I think the Sword of Feast and Famine is good and not too broken. I could understand some people not wanting to play the Sword of Body and Mind. If you are able to mill even once or twice you could easily win the game. The SoFaF and SoWaP are really good early in the game. They work well against midrange and control decks. They won't help you as much later in the game. I they are good cards for supporting aggro decks in your cube.
I also like the untapping of FaF quite a bit, but it's impact on the game can be inconsistent, but tearing your opponent's hand up is pretty brutal. I value both relatively highly. My ranking looks like this.
Tier 1. Fire and Ice
Tier 2. Body and Mind, Feast and Famine
Tier 3. Light and Shadow, War and Peace
1. Fire and Ice (most consistent, double CA + removal, increases clock, solid protections)
2. Light and Shadow (can build around and recurs threats + great removal protection)
3. Body and Mind (creating a free 2/2 is bonkers, mill is okay, protections are weak)
4. War and Peace (fastest clock, wins races on its own, awesome protections)
5. Feast and Famine (most inconsistent abilities though occasionally broken, okay protections)
All of them are conditionally the best sword. They all are best in different decks
Fast aggro deck that wants to murder asap: i want War and peace
Midrange ramp: id like sword of feast and famine
Slow, defensive deck: Light and Shadow i wanna recur my stuff, like hornet queen
threat light deck or mill deck: body and mind
aggro deck that wins through continous CA and better card quality: Fire and ice
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
That said, the mill from this sword has only directly resulted in a loss once. The damage is usually more relevant, although it's great against opponents hiding behind big lifegainers.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
This errata makes as much sense as saying that the 2 damage of SoFaI cannot be dealt to players or that the extra damage of SoWaP can never be more than 1. Because those two swords will kill a player just as fast as the "mill 10" part of SoBaM does in most cases.
While the "mill 10" ability of Jace 3.0 is boring and quite uninteractive, the same ability on the sword is not, because it has to connect to a player to work. Artifact removal is far more common than direct planeswalker removal. The creature carrying the sword can be killed. Or it can be blocked. While you only need to save Jace from a single attack, you need to successfully attack with an equipped creature two times to mill just as many cards.
And as others have said, mill is not per se uninteractive, since there are quite a few cards in cube that work with the graveyard or out of the graveyard. Also, even if there are no graveyard interactions present, what is the problem with milling 10 cards? It slightly increases the sword's clock, raising it to a level that two of the other swords already have. No other cards in your deck (or even your whole cube) support a mill strategy? It doesn't matter. Because the sword is already providing this strategy all by itself, while still being perfectly playable if this strategy doesn't work out. It's not like including a single infect card in your cube or something like it.
Everyone who is afraid of SoBaM's milling ability, do yourself a favor: Include the sword without any errata. There is no reason to do otherwise.
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I love the other swords and would say Sword of War and Peace is very nice too!
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My ranking:
SoFaI - kill and draw
SoLaS - protection from best spot removal colors
SoBaM - produces something to equip on, mill randomly wins games
SoWaP - no CA, but pure damage
SoFaF - discard may not matter much(may even backfire), as well as untap lands not too useful.
I generally pick FaI first... card advantage is king. And it lets you draw all the other Swords you drafted faster... right?
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Dunno how that adds to the conversation but its interesting to think about.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
In one game in our last draft, a player equipped and swung with SoBaM, apologising that it was overpowered in limited and probably was too powerful for cube. His opponent's GB deck was unable to block, and 10 cards hit the yard.
Of those 10 cards, Griselbrand and Acidic Slime (targeting SoBaM) were put into play by Living Death the following turn, with the caster agreeing that yes, SoBaM can be unfair.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
IMO Jitte should be included in these topics by proxy because it's basically sword #6. Batterskull is also watching the discussion from the outside but we'll acknowledge that powerhouse as well.
I think Jitte is the best equipment ever made. It's so aggressively costed and does SO MUCH there's no way something comes close to it. Why do I mention Jitte in the X+Y discussion? It provides a solid baseline for power-level.
In my cube, Sword of Body and Mind has given me the best results (consistently). In a vacuum I suppose Fire and Ice or Light and Shadow do the "most", but if I had to connect with any of the 5 X+Y's, I'm rooting for Body and Mind. It's insane. Mill 10 is quite relevant when your starting deck size is 40. IMO the protections are nice + you make a 2/2 wolf friend. I've won too many games off the backs of "okay, I walk through your army and mill 10". It's hard not to account for personal experiences, but I've had way too many positives for Body and Mind. That's my bias and rationale for putting it #1 ahead of the other 3cc swords.
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I agree that this is one of the most powerful things you can do with a sword in the cube environment. The only limiting factor is that in order for this play to occur you need to have that other card to play either post combat, or on the opponents turn. Its for that same reason that Sword of Light and Shadow is not a top tier sword - you need to have a good creature in the graveyard to get the full effect.
The two best sword I would argue are Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of Body and Mind/CARD] simply because they only require themselves and a creature to attack with to be good. They are slightly better than Sword of War and Peace (which I rank as the third best sword) because again, you need a good grip of cards both in your own hand and in your opponents hand to have the full effect.
Every single sword is capable of broken plays but SoFI and SoBaM are the ones which will make the most consistently excellent plays.
Though I will redirect you to this video from the first time the MTGO cube went online where my unfortunate use of SoBaM leads to a blowout of unfortunate proportions.
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I think most people would rank the Sword of Light and Shadow somewhere between #3 and #5. I thought it was interesting looking at the MTGO Holiday Cube. They had added the Sword of Light and Shadow and Sword of Feast Famine. Previously they had left those out of the MTGO Cube. I guess they left those out because black doesn't have artifact removal. That is why they left out the 2 swords that give creatures protection from black. The reason I wouldn't run SoLaS or SoFaF because I already have some pro black creatures in my cube.
I don't run any swords in my cube but I was adding a Sword of War and Peace. The Sword of War and Peace works really well against slower decks. If they have a lot of cards in hand it can do lots of damage. I'm guessing most people would rank it #5 or one of the worst swords. Sword of War Peace is not very good late game. If your opponent has no cards in hand it doesn't do much. I would think most people rank Sword of Body and Mind as #2 Sword. Being able to mill your opponent is really good. You could end up milling them at any time. Cards like SoWaP and SoFaF are better earlier in the game when players have full hands. If people have empty hands both of those swords aren't very useful. Late in the game you are mostly giving a creature +2/+2 and protections. That is it.
-AA
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I think most people would rank it 4th or 5th best sword in cube. I could see it being better than the SoWaP. They untap their lands and play more creatures. They are probably thinking their opponent doesn't have some sort of mass removal spell. I think the Sword of Feast and Famine is good and not too broken. I could understand some people not wanting to play the Sword of Body and Mind. If you are able to mill even once or twice you could easily win the game. The SoFaF and SoWaP are really good early in the game. They work well against midrange and control decks. They won't help you as much later in the game. I they are good cards for supporting aggro decks in your cube.
Tier 1. Fire and Ice
Tier 2. Body and Mind, Feast and Famine
Tier 3. Light and Shadow, War and Peace
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2. Light and Shadow (can build around and recurs threats + great removal protection)
3. Body and Mind (creating a free 2/2 is bonkers, mill is okay, protections are weak)
4. War and Peace (fastest clock, wins races on its own, awesome protections)
5. Feast and Famine (most inconsistent abilities though occasionally broken, okay protections)
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Fast aggro deck that wants to murder asap: i want War and peace
Midrange ramp: id like sword of feast and famine
Slow, defensive deck: Light and Shadow i wanna recur my stuff, like hornet queen
threat light deck or mill deck: body and mind
aggro deck that wins through continous CA and better card quality: Fire and ice
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979