I think LaS is one of the best swords (tied for 2nd best with BaM behind FaI). Amazing protections and creature recursion is pretty savage in the cube. Especially since you have a Sword, so any random body becomes insane.
I agree. The abilities always seem to be more relevant in practice than I would imagine on paper.
With sac effects and pox/stax type decks on the increase, the creature recursion on SoLaS has been more useful of late.
Pro red is less relevant as a removal colour, as the +2/+2 is good protection against burn already. I value pro-green higher to get past green fat/regenerators/tokens/otherwise irrelevant mana dudes/etc.
If I had to cut a sword it would be SoWaP because the effects are boring and it is worded awkwardly.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I've found the pro:Red to be stronger than I expected. Maybe it's because we often see red decks with big spells going off (Wildfires and Earthquakes of all kinds) and my 2/2s carrying Swords are killed off by those effects (along with the rest of my board :() without pro:Red. I still think White and Black are more valuable, but the Red protection has been better than I would've expected it to be.
Something that has been discussed lately and I think would make these cards much more interesting and interactive is a functional errata to protection from colored spells. The only reason I'm not 100% on board is because it would likely be too difficult to remember for new/intermittent drafters to our group.
Not a fan of errata just because it's more 'interesting and interactive' in some way (which people may or may not agree with), or because a card isn't good enough (rebel errata'ing). The swords are very very good but that's OK because the whole CUBE is made of very good cards! Also, would be a nightmare for trying to remember how these iconic cards work (let alone new players, who have enough trouble with Fiendslayer Paladin).
Ultimately, it's your Cube so your call, but I find that idea unpalatable.
-AA
P.S. Can we just please assume that 'Do what you want since it's your Cube' applies to all discussions on here? I realize I'm tired of qualifying my opinions with it, because I like using strong words for my like/dislike of certain things that some people interpret as being a personal attack.
Its not something I'll be doing since implementation would be a nightmare. I just thought it was worth discussion since I like the concept and ultimately think the equipment would be better for cube with those rules.
I think the swords are perfect as is in constructed.
*edit* No need for qualifications, I won't take offense and enjoy hyperbole as well
There are enough new people coming to this forum that get offended by things that you are going to have to include the qualification forever.
Also, you can't put a rule in place that says "assume I am being nice and understanding". Just be nice and understanding. Put it in your signature if you don't want to type it.
I consider myself a person who fancies descriptive language over hyperbole, thank you very much! *sniff*
I do like the suggestion that I should put that in my signature, though! Now to figure out how...hmm...settings...account...maybe I should include something that I'll let you know when I'm being not ice...hmm
Seriously though; super confusing and not necessary on the swords change. They work just fine as is amongst a sea of other awesome cards.
And as far as UG sword goes, I always feel like I'm making the wrong pick when I draft it because of the binary nature of the milling ability. It's my least favorite sword for sure, but likely 2-3 on the list of powerful (after Fire and Ice and around the same as Feast and Famine...so much value!).
The swords are fine as they are in a powered cube. In the beginning (when we were still unpowered) the swords always got slam picked. Nowadays they get frequently passed a few times, because we have learned that they don't fit perfectly in every deck. They're always good except in creature-light control decks, but no must-picks. So I wouldn't want to errata them. I'm always afraid of the situation where your opponent drops a sword with pro X and Y when you play an XY deck, but that's just another reason to value artifact removal highly.
About errata in general: I would be fine playing with errata, if the rules are written on the card (custom cards, or notes inserted into the sleeves). But the reason why I wouldn't do it in my cube is more that when you errata one card, you break away from a clear cube design rule: "Only play with real magic cards". When you do that you can start questioning the powerlevel and fun-value of every card, opening up a huge new design space. I think that only works out well when you actually go through with that and decide to make a custom cards cube right from the beginning. That would be fun, I'm sure, but a whole lot of work to balance it nicely.
UG sword is great IMO because it makes itself a body. The milling is just gravy and it's entirely useful to have another (free!) win condition on the go at the same time. It sometimes benefits opponents with reanimator effects but makes up for this by hurting opponents with tutors and the like.
1. Fire/Ice (I think anyone who has anything else for #1 is odd)
2. Body/Mind (blue/green protection is very good in our cube and the effects on hit are amazing)
3. Feast/Famine
4. Light/Shadow
5. War/Peace
1. Body and Mind
2. Fire and Ice
3. Feast and Famine
4. Light and Shadow
5. War and Peace
If it's P1P1 and all 5 are in there, I'd slam Body and Mind and not look back. Card is crazy powerful, two hits with it and you pretty much win the game, no other sword can do that. One guy in my group hates the card so much and thinks its too powerful to even cube with lol. Same with Jace, Memory Adept.
Right now, all 5 are 360 worthy, but if and when the allied swords get printed, it will depend on what they do. However I imagine all 10 will probably still be 360 cube worthy if people are willing to play that much equipment.
I think Fire/Ice is much better than Body/Mind. The extra card draw is usually much more relevant than the 10 cards being milled, and 2 damage is about equal with a 2/2, but the 2 damage probably has a edge there too. The protections are about equal. Blue/green might have a slight advantage on protections.
I also think that Fire/Ice is the best because of the card draw. Body/Mind is a close second because of the body, which I value more than 2 damage on a sword. Usually killing something would be better than making a 2/2, but with a sword on the board the extra body is more relevant. Then come Feast/Famine and Light/Shadow about equally good, with abilities that are usually great, but sometimes do nothing. Last is War/Piece for me, because it does nothing "special", it "just" speeds up the clock and gives you some live to stay alive, and it can also do nothing or very little sometimes. It's still great, just not as great as the other abilities, IMO.
I value all the protections more or less equally. If you play against the colors, they are all great. Pro against targeted removal for colors with lots of targeted removal and unblockable against more creature-heavy colors. (Okay, being protected against targeted removal is probably a bit more important.)
I think it's because people sign up for Vintage Cube to try to do broken stuff or build combo decks, not that there's anything wrong with that.
I had a similar Boros aggro deck last night where I had Stoneforge, 2 Swords and Jitte. It just comes down to the mindset of the people drafting in that particular pod I think.
I think it's because people sign up for Vintage Cube to try to do broken stuff or build combo decks, not that there's anything wrong with that.
I had a similar Boros aggro deck last night where I had Stoneforge, 2 Swords and Jitte. It just comes down to the mindset of the people drafting in that particular pod I think.
I also felt like my Boros deck was the nut, and it had a sword and Jitte in there as well. I agree that it seems that people avoid the "attack with small creatures" strategies.
That looks like exactly the kind of deck I'd be trying to draft in Vintage Cube, cheap beaters and burn with sick equipment and mana disruption to punish janky "broken" decks.
How'd that deck do?
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It was single elim, and I lost round 2 to insane reanimator draws with Entomb into 2 mana reanimation spell on Griselbrand. So record with that deck was 1-1... Bummer because I thought the decks was nuts!
If possible I probably would've cut at least one 4 for a cheaper spell. You could probably cut an armageddon since Winter Orb and Tangle Wire function as virtual versions of that card.
Anyone thinking of cutting one or two, now that we have seven to pick from?
I'm thinking about cutting War and Peace for both of the new ones. War and Peace is fine but pretty unremarkable and without particular synergies in my cube, whereas both the new ones have more applications. For a straight damage-based Sword, I think Truth and Justice can fill War and Peace's role a little more reliably and with some more fun interactions. And Steel and Sinew, in addition to a sweet name, has two effects that are pretty useful in cube, and allow you to continue to pressure a life total and not take a turn off to kill a walker. And there are plenty of busto artifacts that need killing.
Anyone else feeling that 7 is maybe the Sword saturation point?
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Anyone else feeling that 7 is maybe the Sword saturation point?
Depends on the size of the cube. At 540 I might try and jam them all at once just to test the limit. If I need to cut a sword, War and Peace will definitely be the one to go.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
Pro red is less relevant as a removal colour, as the +2/+2 is good protection against burn already. I value pro-green higher to get past green fat/regenerators/tokens/otherwise irrelevant mana dudes/etc.
If I had to cut a sword it would be SoWaP because the effects are boring and it is worded awkwardly.
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Ultimately, it's your Cube so your call, but I find that idea unpalatable.
-AA
P.S. Can we just please assume that 'Do what you want since it's your Cube' applies to all discussions on here? I realize I'm tired of qualifying my opinions with it, because I like using strong words for my like/dislike of certain things that some people interpret as being a personal attack.
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
I think the swords are perfect as is in constructed.
*edit* No need for qualifications, I won't take offense and enjoy hyperbole as well
Also, you can't put a rule in place that says "assume I am being nice and understanding". Just be nice and understanding. Put it in your signature if you don't want to type it.
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I do like the suggestion that I should put that in my signature, though! Now to figure out how...hmm...settings...account...maybe I should include something that I'll let you know when I'm being not ice...hmm
Seriously though; super confusing and not necessary on the swords change. They work just fine as is amongst a sea of other awesome cards.
And as far as UG sword goes, I always feel like I'm making the wrong pick when I draft it because of the binary nature of the milling ability. It's my least favorite sword for sure, but likely 2-3 on the list of powerful (after Fire and Ice and around the same as Feast and Famine...so much value!).
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
About errata in general: I would be fine playing with errata, if the rules are written on the card (custom cards, or notes inserted into the sleeves). But the reason why I wouldn't do it in my cube is more that when you errata one card, you break away from a clear cube design rule: "Only play with real magic cards". When you do that you can start questioning the powerlevel and fun-value of every card, opening up a huge new design space. I think that only works out well when you actually go through with that and decide to make a custom cards cube right from the beginning. That would be fun, I'm sure, but a whole lot of work to balance it nicely.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
(I'd probably rate them SoFI > SoFF > SoBM > SoWP > SoLS, myself.)
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
1. Fire/Ice (I think anyone who has anything else for #1 is odd)
2. Body/Mind (blue/green protection is very good in our cube and the effects on hit are amazing)
3. Feast/Famine
4. Light/Shadow
5. War/Peace
They're all honestly really strong though.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
1. Body and Mind
2. Fire and Ice
3. Feast and Famine
4. Light and Shadow
5. War and Peace
If it's P1P1 and all 5 are in there, I'd slam Body and Mind and not look back. Card is crazy powerful, two hits with it and you pretty much win the game, no other sword can do that. One guy in my group hates the card so much and thinks its too powerful to even cube with lol. Same with Jace, Memory Adept.
Right now, all 5 are 360 worthy, but if and when the allied swords get printed, it will depend on what they do. However I imagine all 10 will probably still be 360 cube worthy if people are willing to play that much equipment.
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I value all the protections more or less equally. If you play against the colors, they are all great. Pro against targeted removal for colors with lots of targeted removal and unblockable against more creature-heavy colors. (Okay, being protected against targeted removal is probably a bit more important.)
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I had a similar Boros aggro deck last night where I had Stoneforge, 2 Swords and Jitte. It just comes down to the mindset of the people drafting in that particular pod I think.
I also felt like my Boros deck was the nut, and it had a sword and Jitte in there as well. I agree that it seems that people avoid the "attack with small creatures" strategies.
How'd that deck do?
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
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I'm thinking about cutting War and Peace for both of the new ones. War and Peace is fine but pretty unremarkable and without particular synergies in my cube, whereas both the new ones have more applications. For a straight damage-based Sword, I think Truth and Justice can fill War and Peace's role a little more reliably and with some more fun interactions. And Steel and Sinew, in addition to a sweet name, has two effects that are pretty useful in cube, and allow you to continue to pressure a life total and not take a turn off to kill a walker. And there are plenty of busto artifacts that need killing.
Anyone else feeling that 7 is maybe the Sword saturation point?
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Depends on the size of the cube. At 540 I might try and jam them all at once just to test the limit. If I need to cut a sword, War and Peace will definitely be the one to go.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Fire and Ice
Feast and Famine
Light and Shadow
Truth and Justice
Sinew and Steel
Body and Mind
War and Peace