I agree. Strangleroot Geist doesn't have to attack. He fits well in Jund-style attrition/incremental card advantage-y midrange decks. If you're into that sort of thing. It can either put on some early pressure or stay back to block and gain some CA. This is perfectly fine in a midrange deck.
Vengevine is similar. If you're in green midrange, you're probably trying to power out some beef early via mana elves. But when you draw them a bit later in the game, they can help bring the 'vine back. All good.
Ya, but both cards are twice as good if you support Stompy. Instead of just the plays you describe above, they're also good in every green aggro build. And I think they're more valuable in aggro than in mid-range, even though they're playable in both archetypes. If that makes sense.
I thought I would when it was first spoiled, but after testing it more, I'd say no. If I wasn't supporting green aggro, I'd cut the Geist. Vengevine loses a lot of its value too.
The GG cost for Geist is a problem if you aren't supporting aggressive 1-drops in green. 1G 2-drops allow you to play a creature in your other colour turn one.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
You don't need to dedicate half of the section to it. Just play the good 1-drops and a couple aggro 2-drops, and the other green cards you're already playing will be fine in the other slots.
I guess what I'm asking is given any cube size, there should be a hypothetical % of green that is good in aggro, and I'm just wondering what that % might look like. Having a 720 cube, I've already included all the good 1 and two drops and etc, and wonder if I should go further.
Ya, but both cards are twice as good if you support Stompy. Instead of just the plays you describe above, they're also good in every green aggro build. And I think they're more valuable in aggro than in mid-range, even though they're playable in both archetypes. If that makes sense.
Makes perfect sense. I wasn't arguing that Strangleroot Geistisn't good in aggro, just that he's also good in midrange (even if not as good, like you say). Midrange decks don't have to start at 3CC - it's nice to have some early plays and even be able to apply pressure on slow control/durdle decks with good 2-drops, even if your cube doesn't run the Green Aggro 1-Drop Package. Basically, my argument is that even without this support I'm not currently thinking of cutting Geist or 'Vine.
I run some aggro dudes in green, including Pouncing Jaguar, Wild Dogs etc. I don't ever see mono-green aggro, but that doesn't really concern me. I'm happy to pop a pouncing jaguar in a R/G or W/G aggro deck for example.
I run some aggro dudes in green, including Pouncing Jaguar, Wild Dogs etc. I don't ever see mono-green aggro, but that doesn't really concern me. I'm happy to pop a pouncing jaguar in a R/G or W/G aggro deck for example.
This. We don't play much mono-green aggro, but X/G aggro and Naya/Jund aggro builds are happy to have green's aggro beaters.
I run some aggro dudes in green, including Pouncing Jaguar, Wild Dogs etc. I don't ever see mono-green aggro, but that doesn't really concern me. I'm happy to pop a pouncing jaguar in a R/G or W/G aggro deck for example.
This may be a result of drafting with 2-4 people more often than 8 people when I had green aggro, but most of my R/g aggro decks were WAY more interested in playing Bloodbraid Elf than Pouncing Jaguar. They would usually be heavy red decks with a tiny splash of green for things like BBE, Ice Storm, Tarmogoyf, Rancor, Regrowth, or Kird Ape. Even though those decks wanted one drops desperately, I rarely felt like I had good enough fixing to run green one drops.
I think that's largely why we got rid of green aggro. Every card I mentioned except for Ice Storm stayed in when I purged green aggro, but the R/g aggro deck didn't lose any of it's best cards.
If the perfectly balanced R/G aggro deck comes together, green can provide good early cards like Lotus Cobra, Strangleroot Geist, etc, or good late game 4 drops like Vengevine, but those cards are also good in midrange.
I've attempted to make the green one drops that remain playable in aggro but geared towards midrange. The non mana elf one drops I run are Ulvenwald Tracker, Wolfbitten Captive, and Wild Nacatl (who is actually counted in my multicolor section).
If all you're doing is splashing green in aggro, Strangleroot Geist makes for a poor 2-drop.
My X/G aggro decks are happy to drop Jungle Lions on T1.
Did you read what I said? That's kinda my point.
I cut:
Cards that were only good in perfectly balanced R/G aggro decks, but not good in R/g aggro decks OR green midrange decks. Example: Jungle Lion (good in a balanced R/G aggro deck, bad as a splash aggro card or in midrange)
I kept:
Cards that were good in green midrange OR balanced aggro decks. Example: Strangleroot Geist, great in midrange decks as an early dude, but also good in any balanced aggro deck that would've played Jungle Lion on turn 1
Cards that were good as splashes in aggro decks. Example: Bloodbraid Elf, Regrowth
Yes, if you have a perfectly balanced R/G aggro deck, Jungle lion is good, but it's not good in midrange or as a splash in aggro, which severely limits the decks it is good in. The cards I kept are more versatile and are able to see play in more archetypes, opening up better drafting.
Ya, I read what you said. I'm simply saying that Jungle Lion decks are still out there, and are still drafted by me and my playgroup. And they're quite good. So I get that YOU cut all the cards that aren't good unless green is only a splash in aggro, but I'm pointing out that that's not the only way to do it. Particularly if green is paired up with a non-red color for aggro; green becomes a more important color in any of those decks, and all the 2-power 1-drops and aggro 2-drops are good for those decks. Gruul aggro isn't the only form of green aggro out there.
My snarky comment was mostly in response to the fact that I specifically mentioned playing strangleroot geist only in balanced R/G decks, and you said that it wasn't a good splash card. I never claimed it was.
This may be a result of drafting with 2-4 people more often than 8 people when I had green aggro, but most of my R/g aggro decks were WAY more interested in playing Bloodbraid Elf than Pouncing Jaguar. They would usually be heavy red decks with a tiny splash of green for things like BBE, Ice Storm, Tarmogoyf, Rancor, Regrowth, or Kird Ape. Even though those decks wanted one drops desperately, I rarely felt like I had good enough fixing to run green one drops.
I think that's largely why we got rid of green aggro. Every card I mentioned except for Ice Storm stayed in when I purged green aggro, but the R/g aggro deck didn't lose any of it's best cards.
I think this is my issue too. Green aggro gives us what, exactly? White's early drops are better, and white has Armageddon/Ravages of War. Black has hand disruption and removal. Red has burn. So what is green bringing to the party? Basking Rootwalla is solid, but I wouldn't first-pick it or anything, not like Figure of Destiny, or Sulfuric Vortex, say. A lot of green's two drops are aggressive and solid...Strangleroot, Tarmogoyf, the landwalk snakes, Lotus Cobra, etc. So why am I running things like Jungle Lions in a color that really doesn't do much for aggrro?
I'd rather spend those slots on solid mid-range and ramp stuff, to let green do what it does better than anyone else. As the previous poster said, green can still pait its agressive two-drops and mana elves with red to excellent results. Decisions like this are part of the fun of cube, IMO.
So why am I running things like Jungle Lions in a color that really doesn't do much for aggrro?
Because 2-power 1-drops are good in aggro. You don't have an endless supply of better 1-drops in every draft in every non-green color. So in WG, ya, Savannah Lions is better. But you don't have 6 Savannah Lions in every draft, and they're not all going to wind up in your pool. So if you want enough good aggro 1-drops to play any combination of G/X aggro you want to, you can't do it all the time without green's 1-drops. Especially not in G/B aggro.
Fair enough. I guess I'm asking what pulls an aggro player into green. What makes him think, "Man, forget red and white, green is so open right now!"? When I get a fourth-pick Ravages of War, I know white is free. What is green's Ravages, or Vortex?
It doesn't have an aggro card like Ravages or Vortex. But you can take something like Bloodbraid Elf. And even if you're competing for red aggro cards with another drafter, you can get RG aggro to work thanks to extending the backbone of the deck with green's aggro creatures.
You can build good aggro decks without Armageddon/Vortex.
I guess for me, I'm not necessarily arguing that green one drops can't make a good deck. I'm arguing that their existence in the cube does not justify the space they take up. I mean, three different colors already have multiple 2 power one drops. Do all four non-blue colors really need that?
In my opinion, by taking the green cards that are only good in aggro out (Jungle Lion, Pouncing Jaguar), but leaving the cards that are good in multiple archetypes including aggro in (Tarmogoyf, Bloodbraid Elf), you open up 5+ additional slots in green to give green additional identity and different gameplay. Green gets to do things other colors can't, like play Birthing Pod, or Oracle of Mul Daya, two cool cards that don't always find space in cubes.
I could play Goblin Patrol and Pouncing Jaguar, but that leaves green playing the same as red. I find it far more entertaining and fun when it comes to deckbuilding time to have green have a different mechanical identity than red, or white, or black, and by cutting the cards that are only good in aggro, I have room to include some cool niche cards that otherwise wouldn't make the cut.
I guess I'm just not sold on the idea that green is adding much in the way of utlitity to aggro. It can offer 2/1s with a small drawback, and some cute 1 drops, and decent two drops. So can red white and black. Red, white, and black can also offer removal and other useful aggro cards. I guess I just don't see it! I get that green CAN do aggro, but what I'm missing is why?
I would argue that Plow Under is green's Armageddon. That card is savage. Also, as wtwlf says, Bloodbraid Elf.
What green adds to aggro is consistency. The more aggro 1- and 2-drops the cube has, the better aggro will be. If you want there to be a even split of winning aggro/control/midrange decks, aggro needs many more tools than control does. By supporting aggro in four colors, you get a good number and diversity of aggro decks.
And, I don't understand why supporting green aggro means you can't also support green ramp. That's like saying your support of white aggro means you can't support white control. Green is fine for ramp, aggro, and midrange in my cube.
I would argue that Plow Under is green's Armageddon. That card is savage. Also, as wtwlf says, Bloodbraid Elf.
So green's amazing card for aggro costs 5 mana and does maybe half of what White's version does and costs two colored instead of one (making it less splashable). I realize it's not symmetrical, but in aggro deck if you're not ahead enough by the time you're casting plow under, you're probably not doing well.
Green's amazing card for aggro is also much better in ramp or midrange, when you're powering it out early. Spending your early turns on mana ramp to play a turn 3 or 4 plow under really doesn't scream aggro to me.
And, I don't understand why supporting green aggro means you can't also support green ramp. That's like saying your support of white aggro means you can't support white control. Green is fine for ramp, aggro, and midrange in my cube.
It's not that you can't support green ramp, it's that however many green 2 power one drops you run, there are that many fewer slots for the green midrange or ramp deck to get.
My cube heavily supports aggro in red, black, and white. I run Vampire Interloper and Stormfront Pegasus, two underwhelming cards that are important to supporting aggro archetypes. As a result, I see good aggro decks in every draft. I don't feel like the inclusion of 4 or 5 green one drops would really change the number or quality of aggro decks in the cube.
On the other hand, some of the other "build around me" type cards I managed to include by cutting those low performers really make for much better cube decks and enjoyable games. Things like Birthing Pod, Oracle of Mul Daya, or even Tooth and Nail don't always make it into cubes because people have green spread out so far, supporting aggro, ramp, and midrange. When you cut the worst one drops in the cube (since all of greens one drops are noticeably worse than Goblin Guide, Isamaru, Hound of Konda, or even Savannah Lions) for cards that enable entire archetypes . . . . that to me makes for a better cube experience.
Plow Under is disgusting. Comparing it to Armageddon looks unfair, but it's not that far behind. Unless they're stable before the Plow goes off, they're probably dead.
And yes, the green 2-power 1-drops contribution to the cube justifies their slots.
Mid-range doesn't need as much support as aggro does. Ramp can be stellar and still support green aggro. But it doesn't work the other way around.
I guess for me, I'm not necessarily arguing that green one drops can't make a good deck. I'm arguing that their existence in the cube does not justify the space they take up. I mean, three different colors already have multiple 2 power one drops. Do all four non-blue colors really need that?
In my opinion, by taking the green cards that are only good in aggro out (Jungle Lion, Pouncing Jaguar), but leaving the cards that are good in multiple archetypes including aggro in (Tarmogoyf, Bloodbraid Elf), you open up 5+ additional slots in green to give green additional identity and different gameplay. Green gets to do things other colors can't, like play Birthing Pod, or Oracle of Mul Daya, two cool cards that don't always find space in cubes.
I could play Goblin Patrol and Pouncing Jaguar, but that leaves green playing the same as red. I find it far more entertaining and fun when it comes to deckbuilding time to have green have a different mechanical identity than red, or white, or black, and by cutting the cards that are only good in aggro, I have room to include some cool niche cards that otherwise wouldn't make the cut.
This is fair, but it's all about what you find enjoyable. Like I said in my first post, I adore stompy creatures.
I guess for me, I'm not necessarily arguing that green one drops can't make a good deck. I'm arguing that their existence in the cube does not justify the space they take up. I mean, three different colors already have multiple 2 power one drops. Do all four non-blue colors really need that?
In my opinion, by taking the green cards that are only good in aggro out (Jungle Lion, Pouncing Jaguar), but leaving the cards that are good in multiple archetypes including aggro in (Tarmogoyf, Bloodbraid Elf), you open up 5+ additional slots in green to give green additional identity and different gameplay. Green gets to do things other colors can't, like play Birthing Pod, or Oracle of Mul Daya, two cool cards that don't always find space in cubes.
I could play Goblin Patrol and Pouncing Jaguar, but that leaves green playing the same as red. I find it far more entertaining and fun when it comes to deckbuilding time to have green have a different mechanical identity than red, or white, or black, and by cutting the cards that are only good in aggro, I have room to include some cool niche cards that otherwise wouldn't make the cut.
Ya, but both cards are twice as good if you support Stompy. Instead of just the plays you describe above, they're also good in every green aggro build. And I think they're more valuable in aggro than in mid-range, even though they're playable in both archetypes. If that makes sense.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
The GG cost for Geist is a problem if you aren't supporting aggressive 1-drops in green. 1G 2-drops allow you to play a creature in your other colour turn one.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Makes perfect sense. I wasn't arguing that Strangleroot Geist isn't good in aggro, just that he's also good in midrange (even if not as good, like you say). Midrange decks don't have to start at 3CC - it's nice to have some early plays and even be able to apply pressure on slow control/durdle decks with good 2-drops, even if your cube doesn't run the Green Aggro 1-Drop Package. Basically, my argument is that even without this support I'm not currently thinking of cutting Geist or 'Vine.
My Cube
My Blog
Juju Alters - Altered MTG Cards
This. We don't play much mono-green aggro, but X/G aggro and Naya/Jund aggro builds are happy to have green's aggro beaters.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
This may be a result of drafting with 2-4 people more often than 8 people when I had green aggro, but most of my R/g aggro decks were WAY more interested in playing Bloodbraid Elf than Pouncing Jaguar. They would usually be heavy red decks with a tiny splash of green for things like BBE, Ice Storm, Tarmogoyf, Rancor, Regrowth, or Kird Ape. Even though those decks wanted one drops desperately, I rarely felt like I had good enough fixing to run green one drops.
I think that's largely why we got rid of green aggro. Every card I mentioned except for Ice Storm stayed in when I purged green aggro, but the R/g aggro deck didn't lose any of it's best cards.
If the perfectly balanced R/G aggro deck comes together, green can provide good early cards like Lotus Cobra, Strangleroot Geist, etc, or good late game 4 drops like Vengevine, but those cards are also good in midrange.
I've attempted to make the green one drops that remain playable in aggro but geared towards midrange. The non mana elf one drops I run are Ulvenwald Tracker, Wolfbitten Captive, and Wild Nacatl (who is actually counted in my multicolor section).
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
My X/G aggro decks are happy to drop Jungle Lions on T1.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Did you read what I said? That's kinda my point.
I cut:
Cards that were only good in perfectly balanced R/G aggro decks, but not good in R/g aggro decks OR green midrange decks. Example: Jungle Lion (good in a balanced R/G aggro deck, bad as a splash aggro card or in midrange)
I kept:
Cards that were good in green midrange OR balanced aggro decks. Example: Strangleroot Geist, great in midrange decks as an early dude, but also good in any balanced aggro deck that would've played Jungle Lion on turn 1
Cards that were good as splashes in aggro decks. Example: Bloodbraid Elf, Regrowth
Yes, if you have a perfectly balanced R/G aggro deck, Jungle lion is good, but it's not good in midrange or as a splash in aggro, which severely limits the decks it is good in. The cards I kept are more versatile and are able to see play in more archetypes, opening up better drafting.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
I think this is my issue too. Green aggro gives us what, exactly? White's early drops are better, and white has Armageddon/Ravages of War. Black has hand disruption and removal. Red has burn. So what is green bringing to the party? Basking Rootwalla is solid, but I wouldn't first-pick it or anything, not like Figure of Destiny, or Sulfuric Vortex, say. A lot of green's two drops are aggressive and solid...Strangleroot, Tarmogoyf, the landwalk snakes, Lotus Cobra, etc. So why am I running things like Jungle Lions in a color that really doesn't do much for aggrro?
I'd rather spend those slots on solid mid-range and ramp stuff, to let green do what it does better than anyone else. As the previous poster said, green can still pait its agressive two-drops and mana elves with red to excellent results. Decisions like this are part of the fun of cube, IMO.
Because 2-power 1-drops are good in aggro. You don't have an endless supply of better 1-drops in every draft in every non-green color. So in WG, ya, Savannah Lions is better. But you don't have 6 Savannah Lions in every draft, and they're not all going to wind up in your pool. So if you want enough good aggro 1-drops to play any combination of G/X aggro you want to, you can't do it all the time without green's 1-drops. Especially not in G/B aggro.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
You can build good aggro decks without Armageddon/Vortex.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
In my opinion, by taking the green cards that are only good in aggro out (Jungle Lion, Pouncing Jaguar), but leaving the cards that are good in multiple archetypes including aggro in (Tarmogoyf, Bloodbraid Elf), you open up 5+ additional slots in green to give green additional identity and different gameplay. Green gets to do things other colors can't, like play Birthing Pod, or Oracle of Mul Daya, two cool cards that don't always find space in cubes.
I could play Goblin Patrol and Pouncing Jaguar, but that leaves green playing the same as red. I find it far more entertaining and fun when it comes to deckbuilding time to have green have a different mechanical identity than red, or white, or black, and by cutting the cards that are only good in aggro, I have room to include some cool niche cards that otherwise wouldn't make the cut.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
EDIT: Just above, Jeff nailed it.
What green adds to aggro is consistency. The more aggro 1- and 2-drops the cube has, the better aggro will be. If you want there to be a even split of winning aggro/control/midrange decks, aggro needs many more tools than control does. By supporting aggro in four colors, you get a good number and diversity of aggro decks.
And, I don't understand why supporting green aggro means you can't also support green ramp. That's like saying your support of white aggro means you can't support white control. Green is fine for ramp, aggro, and midrange in my cube.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
So green's amazing card for aggro costs 5 mana and does maybe half of what White's version does and costs two colored instead of one (making it less splashable). I realize it's not symmetrical, but in aggro deck if you're not ahead enough by the time you're casting plow under, you're probably not doing well.
Green's amazing card for aggro is also much better in ramp or midrange, when you're powering it out early. Spending your early turns on mana ramp to play a turn 3 or 4 plow under really doesn't scream aggro to me.
It's not that you can't support green ramp, it's that however many green 2 power one drops you run, there are that many fewer slots for the green midrange or ramp deck to get.
My cube heavily supports aggro in red, black, and white. I run Vampire Interloper and Stormfront Pegasus, two underwhelming cards that are important to supporting aggro archetypes. As a result, I see good aggro decks in every draft. I don't feel like the inclusion of 4 or 5 green one drops would really change the number or quality of aggro decks in the cube.
On the other hand, some of the other "build around me" type cards I managed to include by cutting those low performers really make for much better cube decks and enjoyable games. Things like Birthing Pod, Oracle of Mul Daya, or even Tooth and Nail don't always make it into cubes because people have green spread out so far, supporting aggro, ramp, and midrange. When you cut the worst one drops in the cube (since all of greens one drops are noticeably worse than Goblin Guide, Isamaru, Hound of Konda, or even Savannah Lions) for cards that enable entire archetypes . . . . that to me makes for a better cube experience.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
And yes, the green 2-power 1-drops contribution to the cube justifies their slots.
Mid-range doesn't need as much support as aggro does. Ramp can be stellar and still support green aggro. But it doesn't work the other way around.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My Cube Blog @theCubeMiser on Twitter
This is fair, but it's all about what you find enjoyable. Like I said in my first post, I adore stompy creatures.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."