On the other hand, some of the other "build around me" type cards I managed to include by cutting those low performers really make for much better cube decks and enjoyable games. Things like Birthing Pod, Oracle of Mul Daya, or even Tooth and Nail don't always make it into cubes because people have green spread out so far, supporting aggro, ramp, and midrange. When you cut the worst one drops in the cube (since all of greens one drops are noticeably worse than Goblin Guide, Isamaru, Hound of Konda, or even Savannah Lions) for cards that enable entire archetypes . . . . that to me makes for a better cube experience.
And this is where we really differ in our cubing tastes. I tried Tooth and Nail and Oracle and hated them. They were slow and inconsistent. I'll take the aggro 1- and 2-drops over those two cards any day. I never tried Birthing Pod, but the CC and sorcery speed restrictions, coupled with it not actually advancing my board position make me disinterested in this card.
I wasnt' talking about ramping into Plow Under either. It's possibly the best 5cc card for green aggro. It sets back the oppoent's board and costs them two draws. It's not Armageddon--but what is? It's still a kick in the junk and can really seal up the game.
In my opinion, by taking the green cards that are only good in aggro out (Jungle Lion, Pouncing Jaguar), but leaving the cards that are good in multiple archetypes including aggro in (Tarmogoyf, Bloodbraid Elf), you open up 5+ additional slots in green to give green additional identity and different gameplay. Green gets to do things other colors can't, like play Birthing Pod, or Oracle of Mul Daya, two cool cards that don't always find space in cubes.
This doesn't give green additional identity since you're basically stripping aggro from green in favor of either additional ramp or build around me cards. If anything I think this detracts from green's identity and makes it a less versatile, albeit more focused, color overall.
Another thing I dislike about stripping out the bad green 1 drops is they are really important support cards for Kird Ape, Loam Lion & Wild Nacatl which are among the best aggro 1 drops in cube.
I do like build around me cards but I prefer to pull a little support from all of green's archetypes to fit them in.
And minor nitpick but unless we're playing Commander every color can play Birthing Pod.;)
From my understanding, Green is the ramp and midrange color. I have seen a lot of list playing these cards and they don't seem to fit into the green strategies. Is there a reason they see play?
There is such a thing as green based aggro that wants all of these guys along with Rancor... Not all cubes support it, but those that do often times include those cards and various two drops such as Albino Troll and Strangleroot Geist.
That being said, something like Wild Dogs goes great in a deck sporting Kird Ape as it's an on colour aggro card that can be cycled late game in hopes of getting the critical burn spell.
I don't like the green aggro creatures, they are only the fourth-best of their kind and therefore not really needed. White, black and red have more good one drop creatures and they have removal. If you want one deck in three to be aggro, three colors that support it are enough.
Also, as you said, these creatures do not play to greens strength. When I play a deck that supports green one drops, I want to play mana elves. They get me quickly to a point where I can drop more relevant creatures than my opponent.
Of course it is a matter of cube size, but I think for medium sized cubes, every aggro one drop in green you run over a playable mana elf is a missed opportunity to make green a better color.
From my understanding, Green is the ramp and midrange color. I have seen a lot of list playing these cards and they don't seem to fit into the green strategies. Is there a reason they see play?
I'm definitely down with Green aggro, but not Pouncing Jaguar, I am never ok with skipping my two mana play simply to have 2 power.
Also, I think the mana elves go a long way in making green aggro viable as well. They bring swords out on turn 2 and can still swing.
Green aggro is more than fine. In my cube, RG aggro is probably the deck with the highest percentage of wins. It has quick beats, burn, and noncreature removal. It's a great deck. I love green aggro and have found room to support both aggro and ramp in the color.
I don't like the green aggro creatures, they are only the fourth-best of their kind and therefore not really needed. White, black and red have more good one drop creatures and they have removal. If you want one deck in three to be aggro, three colors that support it are enough.
Also, as you said, these creatures do not play to greens strength. When I play a deck that supports green one drops, I want to play mana elves. They get me quickly to a point where I can drop more relevant creatures than my opponent.
Of course it is a matter of cube size, but I think for medium sized cubes, every aggro one drop in green you run over a playable mana elf is a missed opportunity to make green a better color.
And I pretty much disagree with all of this. I think the quality of the green aggro creatures is just fine. I don't think that having aggro be exclusively available to 3 colors is enough. I think that it does play into one of green's strengths. I think there's more to green than just ramp. I play green decks that want 2-power 1-drops from green. I think cutting the green aggro creatures for more ramp doesn't make green a better color. It makes it a worse color, because green loses it's versatility and becomes a 1-trick pony.
The same could be said of any color. Playing any blue tempo support is not playing to blue's strengths. Blue's strongest role is undeniably control, but flexible cards that are good in everything, and some tempo support is welcome in almost every cube because the decks are competitive, fun and diversify the metagame. Playing anything in red besides hard aggro is "not playing to its strengths". But Earthquakes, Wildfires, Pyroclasms and other fun and interesting archetype enablers are played because it makes red a more well rounded color. And so on. Green is no different. Mid-range and ramp aren't the only things it can do. It has quality 1-drops. It activates some of the best aggro creatures in the cube (Ape, Lion, Nacatl). It has an excellent structure of 2 and 3-drops that are solid performers in aggro. It has additional disruption. It has card advantage beaters and curve-toppers. It gives aggro access to disenchants. There are mass pump spells and token generators. Green is simply a good aggro color.
The same could be said of any color. Playing any blue tempo support is not playing to blue's strengths. Blue's strongest role is undeniably control, but flexible cards that are good in everything, and some tempo support is welcome in almost every cube because the decks are competitive, fun and diversify the metagame. Playing anything in red besides hard aggro is "not playing to its strengths". But Earthquakes, Wildfires, Pyroclasms and other fun and interesting archetype enablers are played because it makes red a more well rounded color. And so on. Green is no different. Mid-range and ramp aren't the only things it can do. It has quality 1-drops. It activates some of the best aggro creatures in the cube (Ape, Lion, Nacatl). It has an excellent structure of 2 and 3-drops that are solid performers in aggro. It has additional disruption. It has card advantage beaters and curve-toppers. It gives aggro access to disenchants. There are mass pump spells and token generators. Green is simply a good aggro color.
I don't think that is really comparable. The red wraths are the best at what they do, as are the blue tempo spells. The same cannot be said for the green aggro one drops. Green does have solid creatures, but the best way to play them imho is a turn early with the help of mana elves. In my book, aggressive midrange decks are aggro as well and quite different from the ramp-into-fatties plan.
That said, if you like to play green aggro one drops, there is nothing wrong with supporting that deck. As you said the main selling points are Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape and Loam Lion. The good thing about modern cube design is that we have so many options.
I don't think that is really comparable. The red wraths are the best at what they do, as are the blue tempo spells. The same cannot be said for the green aggro one drops. Green does have solid creatures, but the best way to play them imho is a turn early with the help of mana elves. In my book, aggressive midrange decks are aggro as well and quite different from the ramp-into-fatties plan.
Playing lots of mana elves and playing the handful of green aggro creatures doesn't need to be mutually exclusive. And on the subject of green's aggro creatures they don't need to be amazing, they just need to be cheap and playable so they're available options for G/X aggro. I guess my point here is that aggro cards can be crap but control cards actually need to be good.
I think of green aggro how I used to think of black aggro. Remember 4 years ago when we didn't have Vampire Lacerator, Diregraf Ghoul & Gravecrawler or even Fume Spitter? Black aggro was poorly supported but B/X aggro decks still popped up because while the support was poor we all ran what we could and there was enough of it to enable black as a support color for aggro. Monoblack aggro still isn't really possible, same with monogreen aggro, so I'm not so worried that green lacks creature removal since it will need to be paired with another color though that is a valid point against supporting green aggro.
Now you make a good point about aggressive midrange decks functioning like aggro decks but they do so differently. RDW doesn't want mana elves and neither does WW so when you add green to the mix Llanowar Elves doesn't help support G/W aggro or G/R aggro because those decks want different kind of support. They want Jungle Lion support.
After typing all this I realized that this has been debated a lot lately so I'd like to take a more constructive course. I guess my first question is why do you feel specifically the green aggro dorks should be cut for additional mana elves? Is it simply that you felt green aggro was too weak and these made the most sense for substitutions?
EDIT: added in Diregraf Ghoul, totally forgot about that guy when I was typing this.
After typing all this I realized that this has been debated a lot lately so I'd like to take a more constructive course. I guess my first question is why do you feel specifically the green aggro dorks should be cut for additional mana elves? Is it simply that you felt green aggro was too weak and these made the most sense for substitutions?
As I said, the green aggro dorks are only the fourth best after white, black and red (not necessarily in that order). We have seen quite a few good one mana creatures printed in these colors. I think we had to play all the available non-terrible one drops before, including the green ones, in order to have enough aggro support. Now, I think this is no longer the case*). Aggro decks can now focus on one main color, which increases the consistency of their mana base, and consistency is key for those decks. For that main color, green is ill suited as it simply has the fewest good one drops and no good removal and not much disruption.
On the other hand there is one thing that green can do better than any other color, and that is powering out early threats. So for me the green aggro plan is very similar to the other three colors where you have it as a main color and splash for some off-color effects.
In other words, I think modern aggro no longer is WG, BR or GR but it is Wg, Br or Gr (only examples, of course all color combinations that you like can be used here). And if that deck happens to be Gr, I think it is much better when it plays mana elves than when it plays Jungle Lion, because the Jungle Lion deck is much better when you play it Rg and play Jackal Pup instead.
That said, if you like to play green aggro one drops, there is nothing wrong with supporting that deck. As you said the main selling points are Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape and Loam Lion. The good thing about modern cube design is that we have so many options.
But in all of those cases it's important to have the forest as all of those creatures are 1/1s or unplayable without green. This means you're probably going to be running a decent amount of forests, and probably trying to get all of the G/X duals and shocks, so the green one drops are great. This means that Wild Dogs is awesome in that deck because not only is it a 2/x guy for 1 in the first few turns, but it's also a cantrip late game where you want that Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning instead of the small aggro dude. More so, it's an awesome card to fetch with Ranger of Eos as you can just cycle it. So clearly, let's at least start by agreeing that Wild Dogs is a fantastic aggro card in the Kird Ape/Loam Lion deck. (Speaking of which, why aren't Wild Dogs in my cube?)
Pouncing Jaguar is a little more controversial but it's still a 2/2 for 1, and really the only 2/2s for 1 aside from it are Isamura and a few Carnophage variants, that's pretty unique. Granted it has an annoying Echo cost, but look at it this way, if you're playing green based aggro, there's nothing exactly wrong with dropping the Jaguar turn 1, then paying the echo turn 2 and either throwing Rancor on it or playing another 1 mana 2/x guy. Even dropping the Jaguar on turn 2 can be fine, it's not like you need more than 3 2/x guys on the table and most of your curve should be in the 1-2 CMC range so by turn 3 you're kind of fine restricting yourself to 2 mana.
As I said, the green aggro dorks are only the fourth best after white, black and red (not necessarily in that order). We have seen quite a few good one mana creatures printed in these colors. I think we had to play all the available non-terrible one drops before, including the green ones, in order to have enough aggro support. Now, I think this is no longer the case.
I would not say the green aggro creatures are much worse (and arguably better) than what black offers due to the existence of Loam Lion, Kird Ape and Wild Nacatl however I do agree with you that you do not need green aggro creatures for aggro as a whole to be effective. In fact I believe you could even go to the extreme and not support aggro in black, blue or green while bolstering the aggro support for red and white even more and have aggro still be effective. The reason I do not like this idea is because I feel it makes for more boring drafts and decks even though it will likely increase the overall powerlevel of the average cube deck. Admittedly losing green aggro isn't the end of the world when it comes to draft variety but I like to have as much variety as I reasonably can so I also run a small number of blue aggro support cards as well. This just comes down to personal preference though, like cube size.
Quote from you »
Aggro decks can now focus on one main color, which increases the consistency of their mana base, and consistency is key for those decks. For that main color, green is ill suited as it simply has the fewest good one drops and no good removal and not much disruption.
Agreed though I will point out that black is not very well suited for this either. An argument could be made that black does have some very powerful cards that can push you into aggro like Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom and all green really has is Rancor.
Regarding focusing on 1 color this is something I'd like to discuss a little more. An aggro deck can certainly do this to take pressure off their mana base but they can also pick up mana fixing very high and run 2 main colors or even 3 color decks. We've had a few 4 color aggro decks pop up in the past with mana bases that looked like a 5 color control manabase and those decks performed quite well. I'm also of the opinion that Naya Zoo is one of the best decks in cube since it simply plays better creatures than other aggro decks with all the reach those decks enjoy.
Quote from you »
On the other hand there is one thing that green can do better than any other color, and that is powering out early threats. So for me the green aggro plan is very similar to the other three colors where you have it as a main color and splash for some off-color effects.
In other words, I think modern aggro no longer is WG, BR or GR but it is Wg, Br or Gr (only examples, of course all color combinations that you like can be used here). And if that deck happens to be Gr, I think it is much better when it plays mana elves than when it plays Jungle Lion, because the Jungle Lion deck is much better when you play it Rg and play Jackal Pup instead.
This helped me a lot to see where you're coming from and I think this is the area I'd like to discuss a little more. I agree with you that G/x midrange/aggro is better supported with mana dorks than 2/x dorks because they play to green's strengths better. So I think you see green aggro as G/x and I see it as X/g which has resulted in our different viewpoints.
EDIT: I just noticed this but I think it's notable that with your method the Wg aggro deck really isn't possible and with mine the Gr aggro deck really isn't possible (though I don't really consider it a true aggro deck).
Right now I am trying more control cards, reanimation and such in black. But I might at some point swing all the way back to aggressive black cards. Not sure yet.
There simply are no Green 1 drops, that scream to me to play a 15 land deck with a crap ton of 1 drops. A three drop on Turn 2 is way scarier than what the aggressive 1 drops can do.
@Demagogue: I think we agree, if you want to support decks that can run Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape and Loam Lion, you can as well run the green aggro dorks. Consequently, I don't run these creatures in my cube.
I would not say the green aggro creatures are much worse (and arguably better) than what black offers due to the existence of Loam Lion, Kird Ape and Wild Nacatl however I do agree with you that you do not need green aggro creatures for aggro as a whole to be effective. In fact I believe you could even go to the extreme and not support aggro in black, blue or green while bolstering the aggro support for red and white even more and have aggro still be effective. The reason I do not like this idea is because I feel it makes for more boring drafts and decks even though it will likely increase the overall powerlevel of the average cube deck. Admittedly losing green aggro isn't the end of the world when it comes to draft variety but I like to have as much variety as I reasonably can so I also run a small number of blue aggro support cards as well. This just comes down to personal preference though, like cube size.
I think it is very much a preference thing. These green aggro creatures saw almost no play at all in my cube, so they were not missed when I cut them. wtwlf123 said they missed them when they lost the critical mass with the cut to 360. So for the sake of draft variety, having these creatures can be a good thing, but if nobody is willing to play them you may as well cut them. This point has nothing to do with the power of the cards (not saying you said otherwise, just stating the obvious).
It is true that if you count Kird Ape and friends as green, the green one drops are quite good. I would argue that you cannot really do this, because these creatures are not so much green as they are Selesnya, Gruul or even Naya. Or in other words, the less impressive red, black and white creatures do not commit you in any way to play anything else than mountains, swamps or plains respectively as your mana base. Zoo creatures require a very good mana base, which is hard to come by reliably during a draft.
Looking at the mono green options, there are Wolfbitten Captive, Jungle Lion, Wild Dogs and Pouncing Jaguar. Captive is a Rootwalla and therefore about as good as Tormented Soul when it comes to applying early pressure. That leaves three two-power one-drops, all of them with a drawback. White has three without drawback plus the amazing Student of Warfare and Steppe Lynx. Black has five two-power one-drops with a drawback. The only comparable color is red (this is part of the reason why I said green is a bad red when it comes to playing aggro one drops in an earlier discussion). Red has three two-power one-drops with a drawback, same as green. Tattermunge Maniac plays on both sides here if you want that as a fourth. But red has also a lot of utility one drops that play well in the aggro plan, and it has burn which provides both removal and reach.
Because of all that, I think green is clearly inferior to white, black and red when it comes to playing aggro. Selesnya, Gruul or Naya may well be better, and it is a matter of preference to include the support for those decks or not. The mana bases for those decks are too sketchy for my taste in a limited environment, but of course it can come together and work very well.
Agreed though I will point out that black is not very well suited for this either. An argument could be made that black does have some very powerful cards that can push you into aggro like Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom and all green really has is Rancor.
I think black is quite all right when it comes to forming the backbone of an aggro deck. It has a good number of one drops, some very good two drops and not only removal but also hand disruption, Nether Void, Braids, Cabal Minion and Sinkhole. It could still be improved and I sure hope we get more two-power one-drops and amazing two-drops in that color, but it is currently better than green.
Regarding focusing on 1 color this is something I'd like to discuss a little more. An aggro deck can certainly do this to take pressure off their mana base but they can also pick up mana fixing very high and run 2 main colors or even 3 color decks. We've had a few 4 color aggro decks pop up in the past with mana bases that looked like a 5 color control manabase and those decks performed quite well. I'm also of the opinion that Naya Zoo is one of the best decks in cube since it simply plays better creatures than other aggro decks with all the reach those decks enjoy.
I already touched that subject above. I don't like the mana base requirements that Naya Zoo has. But of course, what you say is true, if the mana base comes together Naya Zoo is great. I don't support it, so it can never come together in my cube, which is certainly sad. This frees up slots that I can fill with other awesome cards, though, and that is the decision all of us face. If we want to keep a tight list, we simply can't support everything.
This helped me a lot to see where you're coming from and I think this is the area I'd like to discuss a little more. I agree with you that G/x midrange/aggro is better supported with mana dorks than 2/x dorks because they play to green's strengths better. So I think you see green aggro as G/x and I see it as X/g which has resulted in our different viewpoints.
Yes, I put quite a heavy focus on the mana base, therefore I don't like aggro decks much where I have to support one drops in two or more colors (or CC cards in more than one color, for that matter). So when I think Jungle Lion, I think G/x. I admit that this is a bit extreme because it is possible in cube to support one drops in more than one color. But in our group consistency is a high priority, and if you can build a nearly mono-colored deck, why should you risk not getting the necessary fixing lands and go more colors? The quality of the green one drops is not really an argument, and for Kird Ape and friends to work well the number of suitable lands goes down even further.
EDIT: I just noticed this but I think it's notable that with your method the Wg aggro deck really isn't possible and with mine the Gr aggro deck really isn't possible (though I don't really consider it a true aggro deck).
I don't understand what you are saying here, can you please elaborate?
I enjoy the discussion by the way, and I think in this MCD I can also find it again for future reference.
There simply are no Green 1 drops, that scream to me to play a 15 land deck with a crap ton of 1 drops. A three drop on Turn 2 is way scarier than what the aggressive 1 drops can do.
There simply are no Green 1 drops, that scream to me to play a 15 land deck with a crap ton of 1 drops. A three drop on Turn 2 is way scarier than what the aggressive 1 drops can do.
The only 1 drops that qualify for that are Goblin Guide and Figure of Destiny. Regardless I don't play 15 land aggro decks because of card quality but because they murder slow decks and decks that stumble on their mana.
And again, I'm not saying the G/x aggro deck and the X/g aggro deck can't coexist. It really only requires somewhere around 8 cards total that specifically help green as a support color for aggro. 2-3 of these are gold depending on how you classify Nacatl and cards like Strangleroot Geist are good in other archetypes so you really aren't losing many cards from green to do this. The Splinter Twin thread was an interesting read showing how just a small number of cards can open up whole new archetypes to get drafted. This requires a little more support than Splinter Twin but I think the concept is similar.
EDIT: Dang I got ninja'd by Konfusius. Give me some time and I'll go over your post.
And again, I'm not saying the G/x aggro deck and the X/g aggro deck can't coexist. It really only requires somewhere around 8 cards total that specifically help green as a support color for aggro. 2-3 of these are gold depending on how you classify Nacatl and cards like Strangleroot Geist are good in other archetypes so you really aren't losing many cards from green to do this. The Splinter Twin thread was an interesting read showing how just a small number of cards can open up whole new archetypes to get drafted. This requires a little more support than Splinter Twin but I think the concept is similar.
Good observation. Probably useful to think of cube in terms of 'core cards' (cards that are just generally good like Swords to Plowshares) and 'packages' (a few specific cards that enable a deck).
I think it is very much a preference thing. These green aggro creatures saw almost no play at all in my cube, so they were not missed when I cut them. wtwlf123 said they missed them when they lost the critical mass with the cut to 360. So for the sake of draft variety, having these creatures can be a good thing, but if nobody is willing to play them you may as well cut them. This point has nothing to do with the power of the cards (not saying you said otherwise, just stating the obvious).
I think this is really important for this discussion. I've read through your whole post and understand why this is the case. My group does play the green support cards and these are cards where the "just play them and everyone will see how good they are" argument simply doesn't apply since these are random aggro durdles. If my group didn't play them I'd cut them too.
Quote from Konfusius »
It is true that if you count Kird Ape and friends as green, the green one drops are quite good. I would argue that you cannot really do this, because these creatures are not so much green as they are Selesnya, Gruul or even Naya. Or in other words, the less impressive red, black and white creatures do not commit you in any way to play anything else than mountains, swamps or plains respectively as your mana base. Zoo creatures require a very good mana base, which is hard to come by reliably during a draft.
Looking at the mono green options, there are Wolfbitten Captive, Jungle Lion, Wild Dogs and Pouncing Jaguar. Captive is a Rootwalla and therefore about as good as Tormented Soul when it comes to applying early pressure. That leaves three two-power one-drops, all of them with a drawback. White has three without drawback plus the amazing Student of Warfare and Steppe Lynx. Black has five two-power one-drops with a drawback. The only comparable color is red (this is part of the reason why I said green is a bad red when it comes to playing aggro one drops in an earlier discussion). Red has three two-power one-drops with a drawback, same as green. Tattermunge Maniac plays on both sides here if you want that as a fourth. But red has also a lot of utility one drops that play well in the aggro plan, and it has burn which provides both removal and reach.
Because of all that, I think green is clearly inferior to white, black and red when it comes to playing aggro. Selesnya, Gruul or Naya may well be better, and it is a matter of preference to include the support for those decks or not. The mana bases for those decks are too sketchy for my taste in a limited environment, but of course it can come together and work very well.
First I'd like to say that I think G/B aggro is bad. You don't have reach and you don't have Armageddon. You have no bomb 1 drops. Yes you can draft it and it can win games but overall this is not a very good color combo for aggro. That said you're looking at primarily Selesnya, Gruul and Naya aggro decks that I would even want to play green aggro creatures in. This means you are adding in at least 2 2 power 1 drops and Naya gets an insane 1 drop which will put green on par with black in terms of 2 power beaters. Notably without green or blue aggro support black aggro is similarly relegated to only Orzhov, Rakdos & W/R/B. Also Wolfbitten captive is certainly not reliable as a 2 power 1 drop but will sometimes be just that. And, as you mentioned, Tattermunge Maniac is an option as well. Now I will certainly concede that your mana bases need to be better for the green aggro decks. You have to value mana fixing extremely high, specifically the duals/fetches/shocks which are already in high demand so at least for me it tends to be a G/R or G/W dual/shock that pushes me into green aggro instead of some random Jungle Lion.
Quote from Konfusius »
I think black is quite all right when it comes to forming the backbone of an aggro deck. It has a good number of one drops, some very good two drops and not only removal but also hand disruption, Nether Void, Braids, Cabal Minion and Sinkhole. It could still be improved and I sure hope we get more two-power one-drops and amazing two-drops in that color, but it is currently better than green.
I guess that's my problem with it, it's simply all right. Black's disruption is certainly one of it's biggest strengths when it comes to aggro but I'd rather be playing red as a main color if possible and I think white supports aggro better than black does. I'll concede that black is better than green for aggro but they are pretty close and both bring different things to the table.
Quote from Konfusius »
I already touched that subject above. I don't like the mana base requirements that Naya Zoo has. But of course, what you say is true, if the mana base comes together Naya Zoo is great. I don't support it, so it can never come together in my cube, which is certainly sad. This frees up slots that I can fill with other awesome cards, though, and that is the decision all of us face. If we want to keep a tight list, we simply can't support everything.
Most definitely. You already stated above that your group didn't play the green aggro creatures so you aren't losing anything while gaining great cards in the process which is certainly a win for cube.
Quote from Konfusius »
Yes, I put quite a heavy focus on the mana base, therefore I don't like aggro decks much where I have to support one drops in two or more colors (or CC cards in more than one color, for that matter). So when I think Jungle Lion, I think G/x. I admit that this is a bit extreme because it is possible in cube to support one drops in more than one color. But in our group consistency is a high priority, and if you can build a nearly mono-colored deck, why should you risk not getting the necessary fixing lands and go more colors? The quality of the green one drops is not really an argument, and for Kird Ape and friends to work well the number of suitable lands goes down even further.
It's all about risk vs. reward. Running more colors gives you access to a more powerful deck however you run the risk of not getting enough fixing and losing games to mana screw. It's worth noting that it's possible not to see enough 1 drops in your main color in which case your are also in a bad spot though this risk is certainly lower than your land getting sniped during draft.
Quote from Konfusius »
I don't understand what you are saying here, can you please elaborate?
I enjoy the discussion by the way, and I think in this MCD I can also find it again for future reference.
Rereading that I can see why. What I meant was that your cube just doesn't support green as a possibility for aggro whereas most cubes that do run green aggro support likely aren't set up for the G/x mana dork green aggro as well. Thinking about it more though I have been pushing the mana dork green aggro a little without knowing and it's certainly something I'm going to look at fully supporting in the near future, just not at the expense of the green aggro support. I'm preaching archetype diversity, should at least take my own advice :P.
Also this has been one of my favorite discussions in a long time.:)
EDIT: haha, my wall of text is equally formidable!
And this is where we really differ in our cubing tastes. I tried Tooth and Nail and Oracle and hated them. They were slow and inconsistent. I'll take the aggro 1- and 2-drops over those two cards any day. I never tried Birthing Pod, but the CC and sorcery speed restrictions, coupled with it not actually advancing my board position make me disinterested in this card.
I wasnt' talking about ramping into Plow Under either. It's possibly the best 5cc card for green aggro. It sets back the oppoent's board and costs them two draws. It's not Armageddon--but what is? It's still a kick in the junk and can really seal up the game.
Cheers,
rant
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This doesn't give green additional identity since you're basically stripping aggro from green in favor of either additional ramp or build around me cards. If anything I think this detracts from green's identity and makes it a less versatile, albeit more focused, color overall.
Another thing I dislike about stripping out the bad green 1 drops is they are really important support cards for Kird Ape, Loam Lion & Wild Nacatl which are among the best aggro 1 drops in cube.
I do like build around me cards but I prefer to pull a little support from all of green's archetypes to fit them in.
And minor nitpick but unless we're playing Commander every color can play Birthing Pod.;)
My whole update is outlined in my cube thread. There's a lot of green 1-drops that are going in, but they're all discussed in this thread already.
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From my understanding, Green is the ramp and midrange color. I have seen a lot of list playing these cards and they don't seem to fit into the green strategies. Is there a reason they see play?
BGStandard Green AggroGB
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That being said, something like Wild Dogs goes great in a deck sporting Kird Ape as it's an on colour aggro card that can be cycled late game in hopes of getting the critical burn spell.
Ya, green aggro is good!
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Also, as you said, these creatures do not play to greens strength. When I play a deck that supports green one drops, I want to play mana elves. They get me quickly to a point where I can drop more relevant creatures than my opponent.
Of course it is a matter of cube size, but I think for medium sized cubes, every aggro one drop in green you run over a playable mana elf is a missed opportunity to make green a better color.
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I'm definitely down with Green aggro, but not Pouncing Jaguar, I am never ok with skipping my two mana play simply to have 2 power.
Also, I think the mana elves go a long way in making green aggro viable as well. They bring swords out on turn 2 and can still swing.
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And I pretty much disagree with all of this. I think the quality of the green aggro creatures is just fine. I don't think that having aggro be exclusively available to 3 colors is enough. I think that it does play into one of green's strengths. I think there's more to green than just ramp. I play green decks that want 2-power 1-drops from green. I think cutting the green aggro creatures for more ramp doesn't make green a better color. It makes it a worse color, because green loses it's versatility and becomes a 1-trick pony.
The same could be said of any color. Playing any blue tempo support is not playing to blue's strengths. Blue's strongest role is undeniably control, but flexible cards that are good in everything, and some tempo support is welcome in almost every cube because the decks are competitive, fun and diversify the metagame. Playing anything in red besides hard aggro is "not playing to its strengths". But Earthquakes, Wildfires, Pyroclasms and other fun and interesting archetype enablers are played because it makes red a more well rounded color. And so on. Green is no different. Mid-range and ramp aren't the only things it can do. It has quality 1-drops. It activates some of the best aggro creatures in the cube (Ape, Lion, Nacatl). It has an excellent structure of 2 and 3-drops that are solid performers in aggro. It has additional disruption. It has card advantage beaters and curve-toppers. It gives aggro access to disenchants. There are mass pump spells and token generators. Green is simply a good aggro color.
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That said, if you like to play green aggro one drops, there is nothing wrong with supporting that deck. As you said the main selling points are Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape and Loam Lion. The good thing about modern cube design is that we have so many options.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
Playing lots of mana elves and playing the handful of green aggro creatures doesn't need to be mutually exclusive. And on the subject of green's aggro creatures they don't need to be amazing, they just need to be cheap and playable so they're available options for G/X aggro. I guess my point here is that aggro cards can be crap but control cards actually need to be good.
I think of green aggro how I used to think of black aggro. Remember 4 years ago when we didn't have Vampire Lacerator, Diregraf Ghoul & Gravecrawler or even Fume Spitter? Black aggro was poorly supported but B/X aggro decks still popped up because while the support was poor we all ran what we could and there was enough of it to enable black as a support color for aggro. Monoblack aggro still isn't really possible, same with monogreen aggro, so I'm not so worried that green lacks creature removal since it will need to be paired with another color though that is a valid point against supporting green aggro.
Now you make a good point about aggressive midrange decks functioning like aggro decks but they do so differently. RDW doesn't want mana elves and neither does WW so when you add green to the mix Llanowar Elves doesn't help support G/W aggro or G/R aggro because those decks want different kind of support. They want Jungle Lion support.
After typing all this I realized that this has been debated a lot lately so I'd like to take a more constructive course. I guess my first question is why do you feel specifically the green aggro dorks should be cut for additional mana elves? Is it simply that you felt green aggro was too weak and these made the most sense for substitutions?
EDIT: added in Diregraf Ghoul, totally forgot about that guy when I was typing this.
On the other hand there is one thing that green can do better than any other color, and that is powering out early threats. So for me the green aggro plan is very similar to the other three colors where you have it as a main color and splash for some off-color effects.
In other words, I think modern aggro no longer is WG, BR or GR but it is Wg, Br or Gr (only examples, of course all color combinations that you like can be used here). And if that deck happens to be Gr, I think it is much better when it plays mana elves than when it plays Jungle Lion, because the Jungle Lion deck is much better when you play it Rg and play Jackal Pup instead.
*) for mid-sized cubes, that is
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
But in all of those cases it's important to have the forest as all of those creatures are 1/1s or unplayable without green. This means you're probably going to be running a decent amount of forests, and probably trying to get all of the G/X duals and shocks, so the green one drops are great. This means that Wild Dogs is awesome in that deck because not only is it a 2/x guy for 1 in the first few turns, but it's also a cantrip late game where you want that Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning instead of the small aggro dude. More so, it's an awesome card to fetch with Ranger of Eos as you can just cycle it. So clearly, let's at least start by agreeing that Wild Dogs is a fantastic aggro card in the Kird Ape/Loam Lion deck. (Speaking of which, why aren't Wild Dogs in my cube?)
Pouncing Jaguar is a little more controversial but it's still a 2/2 for 1, and really the only 2/2s for 1 aside from it are Isamura and a few Carnophage variants, that's pretty unique. Granted it has an annoying Echo cost, but look at it this way, if you're playing green based aggro, there's nothing exactly wrong with dropping the Jaguar turn 1, then paying the echo turn 2 and either throwing Rancor on it or playing another 1 mana 2/x guy. Even dropping the Jaguar on turn 2 can be fine, it's not like you need more than 3 2/x guys on the table and most of your curve should be in the 1-2 CMC range so by turn 3 you're kind of fine restricting yourself to 2 mana.
Agreed though I will point out that black is not very well suited for this either. An argument could be made that black does have some very powerful cards that can push you into aggro like Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom and all green really has is Rancor.
Regarding focusing on 1 color this is something I'd like to discuss a little more. An aggro deck can certainly do this to take pressure off their mana base but they can also pick up mana fixing very high and run 2 main colors or even 3 color decks. We've had a few 4 color aggro decks pop up in the past with mana bases that looked like a 5 color control manabase and those decks performed quite well. I'm also of the opinion that Naya Zoo is one of the best decks in cube since it simply plays better creatures than other aggro decks with all the reach those decks enjoy.
This helped me a lot to see where you're coming from and I think this is the area I'd like to discuss a little more. I agree with you that G/x midrange/aggro is better supported with mana dorks than 2/x dorks because they play to green's strengths better. So I think you see green aggro as G/x and I see it as X/g which has resulted in our different viewpoints.
EDIT: I just noticed this but I think it's notable that with your method the Wg aggro deck really isn't possible and with mine the Gr aggro deck really isn't possible (though I don't really consider it a true aggro deck).
There simply are no Green 1 drops, that scream to me to play a 15 land deck with a crap ton of 1 drops. A three drop on Turn 2 is way scarier than what the aggressive 1 drops can do.
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I think it is very much a preference thing. These green aggro creatures saw almost no play at all in my cube, so they were not missed when I cut them. wtwlf123 said they missed them when they lost the critical mass with the cut to 360. So for the sake of draft variety, having these creatures can be a good thing, but if nobody is willing to play them you may as well cut them. This point has nothing to do with the power of the cards (not saying you said otherwise, just stating the obvious).
It is true that if you count Kird Ape and friends as green, the green one drops are quite good. I would argue that you cannot really do this, because these creatures are not so much green as they are Selesnya, Gruul or even Naya. Or in other words, the less impressive red, black and white creatures do not commit you in any way to play anything else than mountains, swamps or plains respectively as your mana base. Zoo creatures require a very good mana base, which is hard to come by reliably during a draft.
Looking at the mono green options, there are Wolfbitten Captive, Jungle Lion, Wild Dogs and Pouncing Jaguar. Captive is a Rootwalla and therefore about as good as Tormented Soul when it comes to applying early pressure. That leaves three two-power one-drops, all of them with a drawback. White has three without drawback plus the amazing Student of Warfare and Steppe Lynx. Black has five two-power one-drops with a drawback. The only comparable color is red (this is part of the reason why I said green is a bad red when it comes to playing aggro one drops in an earlier discussion). Red has three two-power one-drops with a drawback, same as green. Tattermunge Maniac plays on both sides here if you want that as a fourth. But red has also a lot of utility one drops that play well in the aggro plan, and it has burn which provides both removal and reach.
Because of all that, I think green is clearly inferior to white, black and red when it comes to playing aggro. Selesnya, Gruul or Naya may well be better, and it is a matter of preference to include the support for those decks or not. The mana bases for those decks are too sketchy for my taste in a limited environment, but of course it can come together and work very well.
I think black is quite all right when it comes to forming the backbone of an aggro deck. It has a good number of one drops, some very good two drops and not only removal but also hand disruption, Nether Void, Braids, Cabal Minion and Sinkhole. It could still be improved and I sure hope we get more two-power one-drops and amazing two-drops in that color, but it is currently better than green.
I already touched that subject above. I don't like the mana base requirements that Naya Zoo has. But of course, what you say is true, if the mana base comes together Naya Zoo is great. I don't support it, so it can never come together in my cube, which is certainly sad. This frees up slots that I can fill with other awesome cards, though, and that is the decision all of us face. If we want to keep a tight list, we simply can't support everything.
Yes, I put quite a heavy focus on the mana base, therefore I don't like aggro decks much where I have to support one drops in two or more colors (or CC cards in more than one color, for that matter). So when I think Jungle Lion, I think G/x. I admit that this is a bit extreme because it is possible in cube to support one drops in more than one color. But in our group consistency is a high priority, and if you can build a nearly mono-colored deck, why should you risk not getting the necessary fixing lands and go more colors? The quality of the green one drops is not really an argument, and for Kird Ape and friends to work well the number of suitable lands goes down even further.
I don't understand what you are saying here, can you please elaborate?
I enjoy the discussion by the way, and I think in this MCD I can also find it again for future reference.
This.
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The only 1 drops that qualify for that are Goblin Guide and Figure of Destiny. Regardless I don't play 15 land aggro decks because of card quality but because they murder slow decks and decks that stumble on their mana.
And again, I'm not saying the G/x aggro deck and the X/g aggro deck can't coexist. It really only requires somewhere around 8 cards total that specifically help green as a support color for aggro. 2-3 of these are gold depending on how you classify Nacatl and cards like Strangleroot Geist are good in other archetypes so you really aren't losing many cards from green to do this. The Splinter Twin thread was an interesting read showing how just a small number of cards can open up whole new archetypes to get drafted. This requires a little more support than Splinter Twin but I think the concept is similar.
EDIT: Dang I got ninja'd by Konfusius. Give me some time and I'll go over your post.
No worries. And sorry for the wall of text!
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I think this is really important for this discussion. I've read through your whole post and understand why this is the case. My group does play the green support cards and these are cards where the "just play them and everyone will see how good they are" argument simply doesn't apply since these are random aggro durdles. If my group didn't play them I'd cut them too.
First I'd like to say that I think G/B aggro is bad. You don't have reach and you don't have Armageddon. You have no bomb 1 drops. Yes you can draft it and it can win games but overall this is not a very good color combo for aggro. That said you're looking at primarily Selesnya, Gruul and Naya aggro decks that I would even want to play green aggro creatures in. This means you are adding in at least 2 2 power 1 drops and Naya gets an insane 1 drop which will put green on par with black in terms of 2 power beaters. Notably without green or blue aggro support black aggro is similarly relegated to only Orzhov, Rakdos & W/R/B. Also Wolfbitten captive is certainly not reliable as a 2 power 1 drop but will sometimes be just that. And, as you mentioned, Tattermunge Maniac is an option as well. Now I will certainly concede that your mana bases need to be better for the green aggro decks. You have to value mana fixing extremely high, specifically the duals/fetches/shocks which are already in high demand so at least for me it tends to be a G/R or G/W dual/shock that pushes me into green aggro instead of some random Jungle Lion.
I guess that's my problem with it, it's simply all right. Black's disruption is certainly one of it's biggest strengths when it comes to aggro but I'd rather be playing red as a main color if possible and I think white supports aggro better than black does. I'll concede that black is better than green for aggro but they are pretty close and both bring different things to the table.
Most definitely. You already stated above that your group didn't play the green aggro creatures so you aren't losing anything while gaining great cards in the process which is certainly a win for cube.
It's all about risk vs. reward. Running more colors gives you access to a more powerful deck however you run the risk of not getting enough fixing and losing games to mana screw. It's worth noting that it's possible not to see enough 1 drops in your main color in which case your are also in a bad spot though this risk is certainly lower than your land getting sniped during draft.
Rereading that I can see why. What I meant was that your cube just doesn't support green as a possibility for aggro whereas most cubes that do run green aggro support likely aren't set up for the G/x mana dork green aggro as well. Thinking about it more though I have been pushing the mana dork green aggro a little without knowing and it's certainly something I'm going to look at fully supporting in the near future, just not at the expense of the green aggro support. I'm preaching archetype diversity, should at least take my own advice :P.
Also this has been one of my favorite discussions in a long time.:)
EDIT: haha, my wall of text is equally formidable!
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