Rereading that I can see why. What I meant was that your cube just doesn't support green as a possibility for aggro whereas most cubes that do run green aggro support likely aren't set up for the G/x mana dork green aggro as well. Thinking about it more though I have been pushing the mana dork green aggro a little without knowing and it's certainly something I'm going to look at fully supporting in the near future just not at the expense of the green aggro support. I'm preaching archetype diversity, should at least take my own advice :P.
Ah, I get it now, thanks for the explanation. Actually, with my newest update focusing so much on ramp-into-fatties, G/x mana dork aggro is maybe not even supported anymore in my cube. Most of my green four drops are now of the durdle variety.
So what I take from this discussion is:
1) I want to take a step back from my all-in-ramp update with my next update to make sure G/x mana dork aggro still has a fighting chance.
2) I will consider adding a Naya aggro package in the future. Same as Donald I am all for archetype variety, and I can see it making a comeback. Even if it is not often played that is fine by me, my new policy is enabling as many cool decks as possible.
1) I definitely need to bolster support for the G/x mana dork aggro archetype. It sounds like a lot of fun.
2) Green aggro is not for all playgroups. Try it out and if it works out for you great but if not then take it out for something else.
3) I need to proofread my posts before I submit them.
Quote from wtwlf »
This is outstanding discussion. I love this place. Mad props to the cube forum.
This has been a great thread so far and I'm glad you enjoyed the discussion. These MCD type threads are such a great place to funnel all the discussion so thanks to Koopa for starting this one.
@Demagogue: I think we agree, if you want to support decks that can run Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape and Loam Lion, you can as well run the green aggro dorks. Consequently, I don't run these creatures in my cube.
I think we agree to a point. I also don't run any except for Kird Ape and in the near future Wild Dogs, because as I've mentioned already, Wild Dogs has some pretty cool interactions.
I think it is very much a preference thing. These green aggro creatures saw almost no play at all in my cube, so they were not missed when I cut them. wtwlf123 said they missed them when they lost the critical mass with the cut to 360. So for the sake of draft variety, having these creatures can be a good thing, but if nobody is willing to play them you may as well cut them. This point has nothing to do with the power of the cards (not saying you said otherwise, just stating the obvious).
Well this might be a good reason, but have you ever made it clear to other players that this was a strategy in the cube? I know Red based decks didn't really happen in my cube, until I explained why it was so good to another player and the next draft we had 2 Red heavy decks that went almost undefeated despite being seated right next to one another.
I know one thing I haven't seen done in my cube is someone abuse Goblin Welder with Thopter Foundry and any big artifact, simply because players look at the Foundry and always try to force the Thopter-Sword deck if they get it, which is fine but it just shows that innovation isn't always the issue of card selection but rather the tunnel vision of players. I mean think about it, Foundry is a sac outlet that produces an artifact for you to weld off of, and when you have a Triskelion or Sundering Titan it's just back breaking.
I mean we all know what aggro is and we can easily see as Zoo being the default, but what about the other aggro strategies? It's easy to see that Rancor is one of the best aggro spells there is, and in a lot of ways you can think of Pouncing Jaguar as an alternate Figure of Destiny in the first few turns (sure it's a VERY alternate version, but it's still similar in some ways). I mean shouldn't there be a unique mono-green aggro deck possible, in which you play things like Noble Hierarch because it's fine early on by allowing you to pump your guys, reduce your land count, and get your equipment out earlier?
I think the Zoo deck is good, and so is the green stompy deck, maybe even better than any of us are giving it credit for. A green 2/x for 1 into Strangleroot Geist or Rancor and another 1 drop can be pretty scary... Like a three drop is good and all, but in a lot of cases is it going to be better than Strangleroot Geist and a 2/x early on? How about just playing your Noble Hierarch turn one, then playing Geist turn 2 and throwing Rancor off of it? That's you crashing in with a 5/3 on turn 2 and if they remove it, so what, it comes right back and as a bigger creature.
Grafted Wargear is another example of a card you don't really care to ramp into on turn 2. What does it really bring you to play an Elf turn one and a Wargear on turn 2? Isn't it just better to play a 2/x turn 1, another creature turn 2, and then a Wargear turn 3? Sure you can do the same in other decks, but what separates green aggro from Red specifically is that it's more creature based than burn based, and that does improve the effect of your equipment and Rancor.
Honestly, I just think a lot is being overlooked on the matter as there's quite a lot going on in a cube and even simple things can become rather convoluted quickly.
This is a bit late, but I would just like to quickly point out that there is at least one more two-power one-drop in green that I rarely see mentioned but consider playable. Ghazbán Ogre is a variant of Wild Dogs and has seen play in the (admittedly few) G/x aggro decks that have been drafted in my peasant cube. Granted, I'm not sure that as a card it's good enough to see play in anything but a peasant cube (because Wild Dogs has cycling and this doesn't), but it is still a 2/2 for G that, unlike Pouncing Jaguar, lets you make a play on turn 2.
(Also, there are some pretty subpar 2-power 1 mana cards in green, like Mtenda Lion or Skyshroud Ridgeback, but I think that you'd need to be pretty desperate to push green aggro to consider them.)
We have addressed this topic a few times before, but I think we finally have a group involved that is really making progress in a constuctive way. I agree with Wtwf, you guys are the bomb.
My last post got me thinking about 1 drops in the cube that Scream, PLAY ME, BUILD AROUND ME.
This is a bit late, but I would just like to quickly point out that there is at least one more two-power one-drop in green that I rarely see mentioned but consider playable. Ghazbán Ogre is a variant of Wild Dogs and has seen play in the (admittedly few) G/x aggro decks that have been drafted in my peasant cube. Granted, I'm not sure that as a card it's good enough to see play in anything but a peasant cube (because Wild Dogs has cycling and this doesn't), but it is still a 2/2 for G that, unlike Pouncing Jaguar, lets you make a play on turn 2.
(Also, there are some pretty subpar 2-power 1 mana cards in green, like Mtenda Lion or Skyshroud Ridgeback, but I think that you'd need to be pretty desperate to push green aggro to consider them.)
Nettle Sentinel might also be a reasonable guy, at his best he is a 2/2 with Vigilance, worst he is likely to attack once every other turn or so.
Well this might be a good reason, but have you ever made it clear to other players that this was a strategy in the cube?
I did, plus it kinda hits you in the face when you see Jungle Lion or Wild Dogs. But seeing my reasoning above it is not surprising that I could not muster the enthusiasm needed to be really convincing.
I mean we all know what aggro is and we can easily see as Zoo being the default, but what about the other aggro strategies? It's easy to see that Rancor is one of the best aggro spells there is, and in a lot of ways you can think of Pouncing Jaguar as an alternate Figure of Destiny in the first few turns (sure it's a VERY alternate version, but it's still similar in some ways). I mean shouldn't there be a unique mono-green aggro deck possible, in which you play things like Noble Hierarch because it's fine early on by allowing you to pump your guys, reduce your land count, and get your equipment out earlier?
Rancor is good and it is splashable so you can run it even if you don't play green aggro one drops. It is also good in decks without any aggro one drops. Pouncing Jaguar is nowhere close to Figure of Destiny, it is very close to Goblin Patrol, a card many of us would be glad to cut.
I think the Zoo deck is good, and so is the green stompy deck, maybe even better than any of us are giving it credit for. A green 2/x for 1 into Strangleroot Geist or Rancor and another 1 drop can be pretty scary... Like a three drop is good and all, but in a lot of cases is it going to be better than Strangleroot Geist and a 2/x early on? How about just playing your Noble Hierarch turn one, then playing Geist turn 2 and throwing Rancor off of it? That's you crashing in with a 5/3 on turn 2 and if they remove it, so what, it comes right back and as a bigger creature.
Your Noble Hierarch into Strangleroot Geist and Rancor example s something you can do in my cube, because that is exactly where I think green aggro should be at. You cannot do the 2/x for 1 into Rancor and another 2/x for 1. But let me tell you, the chances of doing that in any cube are quite low simply because there are too few 2/x for 1 in green. There are, however, many elves, so this is something you can actually support.
Grafted Wargear is another example of a card you don't really care to ramp into on turn 2. What does it really bring you to play an Elf turn one and a Wargear on turn 2? Isn't it just better to play a 2/x turn 1, another creature turn 2, and then a Wargear turn 3? Sure you can do the same in other decks, but what separates green aggro from Red specifically is that it's more creature based than burn based, and that does improve the effect of your equipment and Rancor.
Just because you can cast a spell on turn 2 does not mean it is a good thing to actually do it. Instead you should cast a three drop other than Wargear on turn two with the elf, then cast Wargear turn three and go to town with equipped elf plus three drop. This is playing to greens strength. Playing a 2/x turn 1, another creature turn 2 and then Wargear is something that white, black and red do better than green. I disagree that green is better suited for that than red because it is more creature based. If you want to play equipment you make sure you have enough guys to carry it, if you don't because you include too many burn spells over creatures that is not reds fault.
This is a bit late, but I would just like to quickly point out that there is at least one more two-power one-drop in green that I rarely see mentioned but consider playable. Ghazbán Ogre is a variant of Wild Dogs and has seen play in the (admittedly few) G/x aggro decks that have been drafted in my peasant cube. Granted, I'm not sure that as a card it's good enough to see play in anything but a peasant cube (because Wild Dogs has cycling and this doesn't), but it is still a 2/2 for G that, unlike Pouncing Jaguar, lets you make a play on turn 2.
(Also, there are some pretty subpar 2-power 1 mana cards in green, like Mtenda Lion or Skyshroud Ridgeback, but I think that you'd need to be pretty desperate to push green aggro to consider them.)
The cycling makes all the difference (well, in fact I still don't like Wild Dogs much, because I think the deck that wants to play a green 2/x for 1 is Zoo and with a good Zoo manabase your life total tends to drop faster than your opponents in the early turns).
There are also subpar 2-power 1 mana creatures in other colors. Being subpar, they don't really matter.
@Happy Gilmore: I typically don't first pick an aggro one drop other than Goblin Guide (because it really is that good) and Figure of Destiny (because it is a good one drop in the best two aggro colors). Armageddon or Sulfuric Vortex are cards that make me want to start picking the aggro one drops high.
I did, plus it kinda hits you in the face when you see Jungle Lion or Wild Dogs. But seeing my reasoning above it is not surprising that I could not muster the enthusiasm needed to be really convincing. Rancor is good and it is splashable so you can run it even if you don't play green aggro one drops. It is also good in decks without any aggro one drops. Pouncing Jaguar is nowhere close to Figure of Destiny, it is very close to Goblin Patrol, a card many of us would be glad to cut.
Your Noble Hierarch into Strangleroot Geist and Rancor example s something you can do in my cube, because that is exactly where I think green aggro should be at. You cannot do the 2/x for 1 into Rancor and another 2/x for 1. But let me tell you, the chances of doing that in any cube are quite low simply because there are too few 2/x for 1 in green. There are, however, many elves, so this is something you can actually support.
Just because you can cast a spell on turn 2 does not mean it is a good thing to actually do it. Instead you should cast a three drop other than Wargear on turn two with the elf, then cast Wargear turn three and go to town with equipped elf plus three drop. This is playing to greens strength. Playing a 2/x turn 1, another creature turn 2 and then Wargear is something that white, black and red do better than green. I disagree that green is better suited for that than red because it is more creature based. If you want to play equipment you make sure you have enough guys to carry it, if you don't because you include too many burn spells over creatures that is not reds fault.
The cycling makes all the difference (well, in fact I still don't like Wild Dogs much, because I think the deck that wants to play a green 2/x for 1 is Zoo and with a good Zoo manabase your life total tends to drop faster than your opponents in the early turns).
There are also subpar 2-power 1 mana creatures in other colors. Being subpar, they don't really matter.
@Happy Gilmore: I typically don't first pick an aggro one drop other than Goblin Guide (because it really is that good) and Figure of Destiny (because it is a good one drop in the best two aggro colors). Armageddon or Sulfuric Vortex are cards that make me want to start picking the aggro one drops high.
I probably couldn't say this better, I think you hit my feeling right on the head. Playing a three drop on turn 2 is playing to greens strengths.
Every color has its tipping point, where Creatures go from having drawbacks to being either vanilla or better.
In black and green it is at 1cc, But Red and White are good from Zero. There are a number of one drops in both colors that pass the threshold. And it seems wizards is pushing three colors atm into a very aggressive theme:
Black, Red, White. If the trend continues I'll likely be switching my focus in black.
I guess we fall somewhere in the middle of both ends of the spectrum. We maxed out on mana elves and heavily support green ramp/toolbox, but we also run the best green aggro creatures and have a disruption sub-theme (Ice Storm, Creeping Mold, Bramblecrush, Acidic Slime, Plow Under). We do not run the typical ‘aggro redundancy’ creatures like Jungle Lion, Wild Dogs and Pouncing Jaguar.
Green decks are commonly of some ramp variety nowadays, but GX aggro (or very aggressive midrange) also happens from time to time. I like where green is right now in our cube. Another mana elf would be nice, though - I'm hoping for a Noble Hierarch spin-off in M13
Dedicating more cards to aggro really limits the potency and viability of those other strategies. Aggro gets 90+% of red's color pie, large swaths of white, and some solid beaters from black. It's well supported in cube without JungleLion.dec
I think removing the aggro strategy limits what green can do. I can adequately support all of the other themes in green without having to axe all the stompy support. I don't think running the aggro creatures keeps green's other strategies from working at all. And making green a part of several different aggressive strategies adds more aggressive archetypes to the cube. Including W/G, R/G and Naya aggro, in addition to the rarer U/G and B/G aggro decks, which are really fun, and completely unavailable if you 86 all the Jungle Lions. Green may be better at ramp/mid-range decks, but that doesn't mean I want to abandon the notion of playing green aggro; especially since we have so much success with it.
I think removing the aggro strategy limits what green can do. I can adequately support all of the other themes in green without having to axe all the stompy support. I don't think running the aggro creatures keeps green's other strategies from working at all. And making green a part of several different aggressive strategies adds more aggressive archetypes to the cube. Including W/G, R/G and Naya aggro, in addition to the rarer U/G and B/G aggro decks, which are really fun, and completely unavailable if you 86 all the Jungle Lions. Green may be better at ramp/mid-range decks, but that doesn't mean I want to abandon the notion of playing green aggro; especially since we have so much success with it.
I have to agree with the other posts and say green aggro is not where its at. As for the rare U/G and B/G aggro decks I think your correct U/G aggro really doesn't exist without green 1 drops. B/G does it's just rarer. Naya and it's 2 color off shouts still exist. In my experience if your naya deck is relying on jungle lion and pouncing jaguar (this cards echo makes it so bad) you probably shouldn't have been in naya.
I think where green aggro 1 drops fall short is that they are worse then every other aggro colours and simply abysmal outside of straight aggro. I cut green aggro and never looked back.
You can only open jaguar and lions so many times till you long to draft 15 card packs again.
Totally agree with wtwlf here. Actually, when it comes together RG aggro is one of the best decks in my cube. And it probably comes together about every third or fourth draft.
In my experience if your naya deck is relying on jungle lion and pouncing jaguar (this cards echo makes it so bad) you probably shouldn't have been in naya.
I don't have a problem with either of the echo guys in Naya aggro. I'll take as many Lions and Jaguars as I can get my hands on.
Green is the fourth hardest color to support aggro in (the order from easiest to hardest is RWBGU), but it certainly can be done. While green has only very few good and pure aggro 1-drops, it does muster a few good 2-, 3- and 4-drops. You can get great aggro decks by filling the 1- and 2-drop slot mostly with the second color and use green mainly for the bigger dudes. Or you can build your aggro deck with some 1-drops that are very different from the 1-drops that other aggro decks would use: Mana elves. This kind of aggro deck will play differently from the RWB combinations which mostly want Isamaru-look-alikes, but that's just what you get when you use another color. And it makes the whole thing more interesting than when every aggressive deck plays the same. Mana elf -> 3-drop -> 4-drop -> land destruction is a very potent aggressive strategy.
I don't use that many slots in my green section for strict aggro cards and yet WG and RG aggro decks happen all the time in my cube and are quite potent. And green is more than just a small support in those. It makes up 40-50% of the decks.
The more different strategies you support in a color, the more interesting the draft becomes. A drafter doesn't just have to decide if he wants to draft a certain color, but also which section of that color he wants to draft: Aggressive or controlish or even a certain kind of sub-strategy (like ramp or tokens). He has to evaluate every card if it fits the chosen strategy to guarantee optimal synergy with the rest of his deck. If drafting green would just equal drafting midrange/ramp, that would make drafting that color more dull than it would be if you also support green aggro.
I don't think I need more subpar aggro creatures, but I'd be willing to include more Isamaru's and Goblin Guide's because those cards are good enough on their own; their playability in midrange and tempo is an added bonus.
@wtwlf123: What cards in your green section would you classify as aggro only?
What other green cards would you classify as Tier 1 cards for aggressive green decks (like Lightning Bolt in red)?
In my small cube green section I only had room for Wolfbitten Captive and Jungle Lion, IMO the two very best green aggro one-drops. Even then, all the cards that wtwlf mentioned are great aggro picks, meaning that G/X aggro is a regular thing for us. The two one-drops mentioned above are always welcome in those decks - the Captive in particular is one of the top early plays any colour can get. He's a house. There are probably less high pick aggro cards than any other colour, but the ones that are there are really good, Like Lotus Cobra, Rancor and CotH.
I disagree. Aggro and ramp are two different decks. Playing Elf into 3-drop is fine, but it's a different strategy than playing a Lion into a Boa. I can put on more pressure in response to removal with the latter. If they answer my 3-drop (or whatever I play with the Elf) my aggression is over. If they answer the Boa, they still get bashed by the Lion.
If I build my deck to take advantage of mana dorks (lots of 3-5cc creatures to pressure post elf) it makes the curve a lot worse if something happens to the elf. Which slows down your gameplan, and makes your deck play like a mid-range deck instead of an aggro deck. Which is what I don't wanna do against control.
Stompy and Mid-Range (Elf --> 3-drop) are two different decks, that each have their advantages and disadvantages depending on your matchup. I like to have both decks available.
Reading this thread is making me consider giving green aggro one last shot - I've cut most of the green aggro stuff to go balls-deep on the ramp and mid-range plan, but I might be able to add more aggro stuff now that I'm at 480 rather than 450.
In year and a half or so I have cube drafted, I have drafted a number of different cubes and have yet to see a base green aggro deck from anyone. While it might be a good deck, it just hasn't really been drafted. Instead, green is usually a support color in mostly R or W decks. I think it's because when I see Isamaru, I want to play white aggro, when I see Goblin Guide, I want to play red aggro, when I see any of the green 1-drops, I pass. The problem is that the best green aggro creatures go equally well in other archetypes and so there's not a real pull to green based aggro. At least, that's my theory.
Stompy, 10-land green and several other green aggro decks have been good in the past. Good 1-drops, creature pump and above-average 2-3cc creatures make for a fine aggro baseline.
There was a mono-green Silhana Ledgewalker aggro deck during Ravnica standard. And from time to time, there were aggressive Elf decks (nowadays, Elf decks seem to be just combo). Also, do mono-green Infect decks count as aggro?
Yeah, mono-G infect is aggro. I piloted Stompy decks in the old Urza's days, with tons of one drops like Pouncing Jaguar and Rancor, and some Albino Trolls and Weatherseed Treefolk for staying power. Mass sweep wasn't prevalent then. It was a fun but kind of low skill deck (not truly the case for most aggro decks, as hardcore control players may have you believe).
So what I take from this discussion is:
1) I want to take a step back from my all-in-ramp update with my next update to make sure G/x mana dork aggro still has a fighting chance.
2) I will consider adding a Naya aggro package in the future. Same as Donald I am all for archetype variety, and I can see it making a comeback. Even if it is not often played that is fine by me, my new policy is enabling as many cool decks as possible.
edit: Glad you like it. We typed a lot of text here and it is good to see that did not turn away everybody.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
1) I definitely need to bolster support for the G/x mana dork aggro archetype. It sounds like a lot of fun.
2) Green aggro is not for all playgroups. Try it out and if it works out for you great but if not then take it out for something else.
3) I need to proofread my posts before I submit them.
This has been a great thread so far and I'm glad you enjoyed the discussion. These MCD type threads are such a great place to funnel all the discussion so thanks to Koopa for starting this one.
I think we agree to a point. I also don't run any except for Kird Ape and in the near future Wild Dogs, because as I've mentioned already, Wild Dogs has some pretty cool interactions.
Well this might be a good reason, but have you ever made it clear to other players that this was a strategy in the cube? I know Red based decks didn't really happen in my cube, until I explained why it was so good to another player and the next draft we had 2 Red heavy decks that went almost undefeated despite being seated right next to one another.
I know one thing I haven't seen done in my cube is someone abuse Goblin Welder with Thopter Foundry and any big artifact, simply because players look at the Foundry and always try to force the Thopter-Sword deck if they get it, which is fine but it just shows that innovation isn't always the issue of card selection but rather the tunnel vision of players. I mean think about it, Foundry is a sac outlet that produces an artifact for you to weld off of, and when you have a Triskelion or Sundering Titan it's just back breaking.
I mean we all know what aggro is and we can easily see as Zoo being the default, but what about the other aggro strategies? It's easy to see that Rancor is one of the best aggro spells there is, and in a lot of ways you can think of Pouncing Jaguar as an alternate Figure of Destiny in the first few turns (sure it's a VERY alternate version, but it's still similar in some ways). I mean shouldn't there be a unique mono-green aggro deck possible, in which you play things like Noble Hierarch because it's fine early on by allowing you to pump your guys, reduce your land count, and get your equipment out earlier?
I think the Zoo deck is good, and so is the green stompy deck, maybe even better than any of us are giving it credit for. A green 2/x for 1 into Strangleroot Geist or Rancor and another 1 drop can be pretty scary... Like a three drop is good and all, but in a lot of cases is it going to be better than Strangleroot Geist and a 2/x early on? How about just playing your Noble Hierarch turn one, then playing Geist turn 2 and throwing Rancor off of it? That's you crashing in with a 5/3 on turn 2 and if they remove it, so what, it comes right back and as a bigger creature.
Grafted Wargear is another example of a card you don't really care to ramp into on turn 2. What does it really bring you to play an Elf turn one and a Wargear on turn 2? Isn't it just better to play a 2/x turn 1, another creature turn 2, and then a Wargear turn 3? Sure you can do the same in other decks, but what separates green aggro from Red specifically is that it's more creature based than burn based, and that does improve the effect of your equipment and Rancor.
Honestly, I just think a lot is being overlooked on the matter as there's quite a lot going on in a cube and even simple things can become rather convoluted quickly.
This is a bit late, but I would just like to quickly point out that there is at least one more two-power one-drop in green that I rarely see mentioned but consider playable. Ghazbán Ogre is a variant of Wild Dogs and has seen play in the (admittedly few) G/x aggro decks that have been drafted in my peasant cube. Granted, I'm not sure that as a card it's good enough to see play in anything but a peasant cube (because Wild Dogs has cycling and this doesn't), but it is still a 2/2 for G that, unlike Pouncing Jaguar, lets you make a play on turn 2.
(Also, there are some pretty subpar 2-power 1 mana cards in green, like Mtenda Lion or Skyshroud Ridgeback, but I think that you'd need to be pretty desperate to push green aggro to consider them.)
My last post got me thinking about 1 drops in the cube that Scream, PLAY ME, BUILD AROUND ME.
For me they are:
- Student of Warfare
- Figure of Destiny
- Joraga Treespeaker
- Weathered Wayfarer
- Goblin Welder
- Spikeshot Elder
- Greater Gargadon
(sort of a 1 drop)Linear:
Support/Dual Role:
Nettle Sentinel might also be a reasonable guy, at his best he is a 2/2 with Vigilance, worst he is likely to attack once every other turn or so.
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Rancor is good and it is splashable so you can run it even if you don't play green aggro one drops. It is also good in decks without any aggro one drops. Pouncing Jaguar is nowhere close to Figure of Destiny, it is very close to Goblin Patrol, a card many of us would be glad to cut.
Your Noble Hierarch into Strangleroot Geist and Rancor example s something you can do in my cube, because that is exactly where I think green aggro should be at. You cannot do the 2/x for 1 into Rancor and another 2/x for 1. But let me tell you, the chances of doing that in any cube are quite low simply because there are too few 2/x for 1 in green. There are, however, many elves, so this is something you can actually support.
Just because you can cast a spell on turn 2 does not mean it is a good thing to actually do it. Instead you should cast a three drop other than Wargear on turn two with the elf, then cast Wargear turn three and go to town with equipped elf plus three drop. This is playing to greens strength. Playing a 2/x turn 1, another creature turn 2 and then Wargear is something that white, black and red do better than green. I disagree that green is better suited for that than red because it is more creature based. If you want to play equipment you make sure you have enough guys to carry it, if you don't because you include too many burn spells over creatures that is not reds fault.
The cycling makes all the difference (well, in fact I still don't like Wild Dogs much, because I think the deck that wants to play a green 2/x for 1 is Zoo and with a good Zoo manabase your life total tends to drop faster than your opponents in the early turns).
There are also subpar 2-power 1 mana creatures in other colors. Being subpar, they don't really matter.
@Happy Gilmore: I typically don't first pick an aggro one drop other than Goblin Guide (because it really is that good) and Figure of Destiny (because it is a good one drop in the best two aggro colors). Armageddon or Sulfuric Vortex are cards that make me want to start picking the aggro one drops high.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
I probably couldn't say this better, I think you hit my feeling right on the head. Playing a three drop on turn 2 is playing to greens strengths.
Every color has its tipping point, where Creatures go from having drawbacks to being either vanilla or better.
In black and green it is at 1cc, But Red and White are good from Zero. There are a number of one drops in both colors that pass the threshold. And it seems wizards is pushing three colors atm into a very aggressive theme:
Black, Red, White. If the trend continues I'll likely be switching my focus in black.
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MY LEGACY ALTERS
Green decks are commonly of some ramp variety nowadays, but GX aggro (or very aggressive midrange) also happens from time to time. I like where green is right now in our cube. Another mana elf would be nice, though - I'm hoping for a Noble Hierarch spin-off in M13
I think removing the aggro strategy limits what green can do. I can adequately support all of the other themes in green without having to axe all the stompy support. I don't think running the aggro creatures keeps green's other strategies from working at all. And making green a part of several different aggressive strategies adds more aggressive archetypes to the cube. Including W/G, R/G and Naya aggro, in addition to the rarer U/G and B/G aggro decks, which are really fun, and completely unavailable if you 86 all the Jungle Lions. Green may be better at ramp/mid-range decks, but that doesn't mean I want to abandon the notion of playing green aggro; especially since we have so much success with it.
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I have to agree with the other posts and say green aggro is not where its at. As for the rare U/G and B/G aggro decks I think your correct U/G aggro really doesn't exist without green 1 drops. B/G does it's just rarer. Naya and it's 2 color off shouts still exist. In my experience if your naya deck is relying on jungle lion and pouncing jaguar (this cards echo makes it so bad) you probably shouldn't have been in naya.
I think where green aggro 1 drops fall short is that they are worse then every other aggro colours and simply abysmal outside of straight aggro. I cut green aggro and never looked back.
You can only open jaguar and lions so many times till you long to draft 15 card packs again.
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rant
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I don't have a problem with either of the echo guys in Naya aggro. I'll take as many Lions and Jaguars as I can get my hands on.
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I don't use that many slots in my green section for strict aggro cards and yet WG and RG aggro decks happen all the time in my cube and are quite potent. And green is more than just a small support in those. It makes up 40-50% of the decks.
The more different strategies you support in a color, the more interesting the draft becomes. A drafter doesn't just have to decide if he wants to draft a certain color, but also which section of that color he wants to draft: Aggressive or controlish or even a certain kind of sub-strategy (like ramp or tokens). He has to evaluate every card if it fits the chosen strategy to guarantee optimal synergy with the rest of his deck. If drafting green would just equal drafting midrange/ramp, that would make drafting that color more dull than it would be if you also support green aggro.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Basking Rootwalla
Jungle Lion
Pouncing Jaguar
Twinblade Slasher
Wild Dogs
and
Wolfbitten Captive
Are the 6 creatures I can think of that I'd probably cut if I wasn't playing aggro.
Some of the green cards I look for the most when I'm playing green aggro are:
Lotus Cobra
Tarmogoyf
Call of the Herd
Vengevine
Rancor
Garruk Relentless
and
Plow Under
And there's several other cards that are good for green mid-range decks that get better if you also support aggro.
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Your second list, at least to me, illustrates why the mana producing creatures should definitely be considered agro enablers.
Turn 1
Juraga Treespeaker
Turn 2
Level up + Any 2 Drop
Turn 3 Plow under, or sword + equip swing, etc.
Even Turn 1
Mana elf
Turn 2
troll Ascetic / Call of the herd / etc
Those are much more terrifying than turn one Jungle Lions.
Mana dudes make me wring my wrists a little because I'm never sure what to expect.
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MY LEGACY ALTERS
If I build my deck to take advantage of mana dorks (lots of 3-5cc creatures to pressure post elf) it makes the curve a lot worse if something happens to the elf. Which slows down your gameplan, and makes your deck play like a mid-range deck instead of an aggro deck. Which is what I don't wanna do against control.
Stompy and Mid-Range (Elf --> 3-drop) are two different decks, that each have their advantages and disadvantages depending on your matchup. I like to have both decks available.
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EDH Decks:
- Reya Dawnbringer // - Mistform Ultimus // - Balthor the Defiled // - Urabrask the Hidden // - Mirri, Cat Warrior
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
1x Fyndhorn Elves
1x Arbor Elf
1x Jungle Lion
1x Tattermunge Maniac
1x Pouncing Jaguar
1x Wild Dogs
1x Twinblade Slasher
1x Silhana Ledgewalker
1x Mire Boa
1x River Boa
1x Imperious Perfect
1x Boggart Ram-Gang
1x Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
1x Cudgel Troll
1x Briarhorn
1x Yavimaya Ants
1x Sprout Swarm
1x Bestial Menace
1x Bonesplitter
1x Berserk
1x Mutagenic Growth
1x Harmonize
1x Hurricane
1x Strip Mine
1x Tectonice Edge
13x Forest
Maybe this is not viable in powered cubes but it swept our pod pretty easily.
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