I'm not disputing that it's really good. It is a bomb. I just wonder how many more games it would win me as that 4/4 who draws three cards compared to, say, a random Wurmcoil Engine. The latter is better early and on an empty board, more easily costed and versatile, and will still end like 90% of games on T6 (especially with stuff already on the board). If Zegana comes down big on T6 and draws some cards, does it win me >90% of games for having done so? I'm not sure about that point. And if so, could another fatty not have done the same?
No, this card doesn't beat better than wurmcoil engine, but not a lot of things do. Wurmcoil and the Titans have spoiled our expectations of 6 drops. All your points are valid and logical and should be taken into consideration. I think this card looks like a lot of fun to those considering inclusion. It CAN be a finisher, but it's prime role is as a combo piece, if you ask me. I know, I know, it's a 6 drop and you should be wrapping the game up with your 6 drop not durdling, but this guy seems like a good stall-breaker, and an incredible blink target, and hitting 2UUGG is simply not difficult. He's more interesting than he is outwardly powerful. So while he may not wrap up the game as consistently as say sphinx of jwar isle he'll certainly create some stories. Like I said before, he's going to make my group want to play simic when they see him. Something that, no matter how efficient, the top simic cards have failed to do. I think popularizing an archetype, even if not defining it, is a damn good reason to include a card.
One thing to consider: she's always netting one more card then you guys are giving her credit for. You draw equal to her power, not equal to the # of counters.
I doubt that's the point that pushes her over the edge, but it's worth noting.
It does also give her some minor synergy with pump effects and anthemns etc, but those seem like gravy.
Finally a card that looks promising. It should easily draw you three cards which is a lot. It can be reanimated, it is worth playing Natural Order for, it can be used with Reveillark and Imperial Recruitor.
Reanimating or NOing for this gal sounds awful. Her value is dependent on what you already have out. The earlier she comes out the worse she is. In ramp she should be strong. I wish she had some kind of evasion.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Reanimating or NOing for this gal sounds awful. Her value is dependent on what you already have out. The earlier she comes out the worse she is. In ramp she should be strong. I wish she had some kind of evasion.
Hexproof seems appropriate. Oh well.
I'm going to buy a party blower and wait until the moment in testing when I play this after psychatog and blow it right in my opponent's face. Also there will be confetti. And a moon bounce.
I have a feeling I'm going to end up really liking simic in this set once its fully spoiled, cube or no cube. This guy, evolve in general, and the fellow that evolves and draws cards, it all seems very fun. It's not the more self-sufficient version of the lorwyn machine-folk that I was hoping for, but it's fun.
Either the Silverheart is paired, in which case Zegana enters with at least 8 +1/+1 counters and draws 9 cards, or he's unpaired, in which case Zegana enters with at least 4 +1/+1 counters, pairs with Silverheart, and draws nine cards.
Either way, winsauce.
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I think people are pretty focused on the value it provides, as opposed to the marginal value. How many games is this card winning you that other 6 drops don't? Because I know that it will lose you a lot when you don't have another creature out. If you go creature > Wolfrir Silverheart > this guy, were you really losing if "this guy" was a Consecrated Sphinx or Titan or Time Spiral? Doubtful.
High cost cards that are great when you are doing well, but mediocre or just plain awful when you are not don't have a strong history. We will see.
Is this card a top X simic card? I don't know and I don't care. If it's not significantly better than any blue or green finisher I run, I'm certainly not going to run it.
With a 3/3 out, you get a 4/4 for 6 mana that draws you 3 cards when it comes out. That's a pretty good investment regardless. Now you have to construct a deck that has an average power-level of 3 on its creatures in order to have her play out that well on average, but she has the potential to be really strong. Plus, she can be bounced/blinked and abused to take full advantage of her trigger.
Look at it like an interesting Mulldrifter variant. For the extra mana in UG, you have the potential for a much bigger body and more card draw.
I'm not saying this card will crack the top 4, but I could see it being a #5 or #6 slot in Simic for larger cubes.
Actually, I think that with a 3/3 out you get a 4/4 for 6 mana that draws you 4 cards not three, since the card says it draws cards equal to its power and Zegana is a base 1/1 creature.
How does this card compare to other 6 drops that give cards and a body?
Arcanis? Consecrated Sphinx? This one passes the terminate test and possibly has a bigger body, possible can draw more cards, but also be worse. It lacks evasion like sphinx or protection like Arcanis. It draws all the cards up front instead of progressively over turns.
I probably have room in my huge multicolor section, but I'm not certain if this is worth it.
Sure Mulldrifter can be evoked as well, but paying 1 more mana to get 2-3 times the amount of cards and p/t onto the board is not a bad deal.
Mulldrifter without the flexibility, evasion, or ability to draw cards if your board is empty. Also cannot be ramped out by colorless mana sources. I think it is a far, far cry from Mulldrifter.
I ask again, how many cards do you need when you have 2GGUU main phase available and a solid board presence? Which six drop is this better than?
Prime time with no nonbasics, Id play this over keiga, id rather have 6 cards then a frost titan locking down a permanent. This in my mind actually compares really favorably to both blue and green 6 drops, but it works really well with them as well so a fatty heavy ramp deck, which can happen in my cube absolutely loves this card.
Too all the people saying its bad in reanimator... Sure its no elesh norn or ... woodfall primus, but if you have a 3/3 bear out its draw 4 cards and get a 4/4. I'm really thinking this is my #1 for the set. I don't think I've ever said anything like this before, but I'm pretty sure you guys will turn around on zegana. Some people play Sphinx's revelation and I'd say this is a lot better then that card. Different colors but still.
I would say my simic section is this.
1. Mystic Snake
2. Coiling Oracle
3. THIS
4. Edric
5. shardless agent.
Everyone here seems to be focused on the power level of the card. I agree that the power level and abuse potential of the card is very high, but the mana cost is really the biggest problem with this card, not the power level.
I'd much rather run Simic Sky Swallower in the Simic beef department. You can play SSS in U/G, off a splash in a base G or U deck, or just as a straight reanimation/natural order target. Zegana only fits easily in straight G/U, and I'd still pick most of the existing blue and green 6 drops over it (C. Sphinx, P. Titan, Upheaval) which means this is going to wheel a lot and sit in sideboards a lot.
I think there is something to be said for making Simic more attractive. So if my group sees him and first picks it, great. If they seem him and say I am probably the only G/U person at the table let it wheel..... That is a problem.
Bonus for it possibly bumping a card with hexproof or shourd. They are powerful but universally hated by my group so I have to be careful with them.
And I will never, not ever use Wurmcoil Engine as the benchmark for getting things into my cube. It is truely a dark day when average power levels get that high.
Everyone here seems to be focused on the power level of the card. I agree that the power level and abuse potential of the card is very high, but the mana cost is really the biggest problem with this card, not the power level.
I'd much rather run Simic Sky Swallower in the Simic beef department. You can play SSS in U/G, off a splash in a base G or U deck, or just as a straight reanimation/natural order target. Zegana only fits easily in straight G/U, and I'd still pick most of the existing blue and green 6 drops over it (C. Sphinx, P. Titan, Upheaval) which means this is going to wheel a lot and sit in sideboards a lot.
All of this. I run gold cards for the purpose of enticing players into those colors. When a card can barely even compete in either of its colors, let alone when it requires doubles of both, it is going to be wheeling and wheeling and wheeling.
I could be wrong, but I much, much, much prefer the other, less volatile options. Zegana seems like a classic win more most of the time.
It's a narrow card for sure (very few decks will want to play it),
but in the right deck this card is very good.
Blink effects + recurring nightmare type shenangins + a bunch of thragtusk/chameleon type creatures on a G/U/x deck
In a smaller cube where versatility was important id probably not play this card, but I'd include it in a larger cube for sure.
What I like about this card compared to say Obzedat, is it encourges smart deck building and synergy to optimize... I always want to encourage cards like this.
I'd be careful about the number of 5+ drops in the cube. If its starting to oversaturate (which I think it will eventually because of the direction R&D seems to be taking magic) I wouldn't include the card.
Too all the people saying its bad in reanimator... Sure its no elesh norn or ... woodfall primus, but if you have a 3/3 bear out its draw 4 cards and get a 4/4.
"Good if you have a "3/3" is a bad endorsement for a reanimator target.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
What if it's not a finisher, but a draw spell? Something to ramp into and then draw more gas with? I won't be including it over an existing finisher, but I could definitely see UG mid-range or super ramp decks including her as a way to continue a flow of gas when it otherwise would be the end of the line. Like a Tidings with a body that can be abused and add to your board presence for one extra mana. Even with just a bear out it still gives you a Jace's Ingenuity + a 3/3 body. I'm not thrilled with that, but it's fine. And with a beast token in play, it gives you 4 cards and a 4/4.
I can't wait to curve into this after a Thragtusk and draw 6 cards.
What if it's not a finisher, but a draw spell? Something to ramp into and then draw more gas with? I won't be including it over an existing finisher, but I could definitely see UG mid-range or super ramp decks including her as a way to continue a flow of gas when it otherwise would be the end of the line. Like a Tidings with a body that can be abused and add to your board presence for one extra mana. Even with just a bear out it still gives you a Jace's Ingenuity + a 3/3 body. I'm not thrilled with that, but it's fine. And with a beast token in play, it gives you 4 cards and a 4/4.
I can't wait to curve into this after a Thragtusk and draw 6 cards.
Its like consecrated sphinx, not a finisher but a tank of gas. I cant wait to break this with recursion
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What if it's not a finisher, but a draw spell? Something to ramp into and then draw more gas with? I won't be including it over an existing finisher, but I could definitely see UG mid-range or super ramp decks including her as a way to continue a flow of gas when it otherwise would be the end of the line. Like a Tidings with a body that can be abused and add to your board presence for one extra mana. Even with just a bear out it still gives you a Jace's Ingenuity + a 3/3 body. I'm not thrilled with that, but it's fine. And with a beast token in play, it gives you 4 cards and a 4/4.
I can't wait to curve into this after a Thragtusk and draw 6 cards.
Again, power level is not something this card is short on. If it was 4GG, 4UU, or 4UG I would give it a strong look for inclusion. At 2UUGG it's just not the type of card I like in my cube.
What if it's not a finisher, but a draw spell? Something to ramp into and then draw more gas with? I won't be including it over an existing finisher, but I could definitely see UG mid-range or super ramp decks including her as a way to continue a flow of gas when it otherwise would be the end of the line. Like a Tidings with a body that can be abused and add to your board presence for one extra mana. Even with just a bear out it still gives you a Jace's Ingenuity + a 3/3 body. I'm not thrilled with that, but it's fine. And with a beast token in play, it gives you 4 cards and a 4/4.
I think it is a terrible draw spell, because A) It's expensive. B) It is a sorcery, so say goodbye to countering/responding to things C) It opens you up to blowout via instant speed removal and worst of all D) It is a 1/1 cantrip for 6 when I need it to be a draw spell most.
Will it lead to amazing plays. fun, and blowouts? Yes. Will it win you games you wouldn't otherwise win? Maybe, but we'll see. I can't think of any 6 drops or 6 cost spells I'd run it over. Time Spiral? Upheaval?
Like I said before, this isn't replacing a cube 6-drop. There are definitely decks that want this creature. All of my UG mid-range and ramp decks will be happy to play it.
Cubes small enough to only be using 4 UG cards won't have room for it anyways, so it's only making the cut in med-large sized cubes anyways.
Again, power level is not something this card is short on. If it was 4GG, 4UU, or 4UG I would give it a strong look for inclusion. At 2UUGG it's just not the type of card I like in my cube.
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No, this card doesn't beat better than wurmcoil engine, but not a lot of things do. Wurmcoil and the Titans have spoiled our expectations of 6 drops. All your points are valid and logical and should be taken into consideration. I think this card looks like a lot of fun to those considering inclusion. It CAN be a finisher, but it's prime role is as a combo piece, if you ask me. I know, I know, it's a 6 drop and you should be wrapping the game up with your 6 drop not durdling, but this guy seems like a good stall-breaker, and an incredible blink target, and hitting 2UUGG is simply not difficult. He's more interesting than he is outwardly powerful. So while he may not wrap up the game as consistently as say sphinx of jwar isle he'll certainly create some stories. Like I said before, he's going to make my group want to play simic when they see him. Something that, no matter how efficient, the top simic cards have failed to do. I think popularizing an archetype, even if not defining it, is a damn good reason to include a card.
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I doubt that's the point that pushes her over the edge, but it's worth noting.
It does also give her some minor synergy with pump effects and anthemns etc, but those seem like gravy.
Reanimating or NOing for this gal sounds awful. Her value is dependent on what you already have out. The earlier she comes out the worse she is. In ramp she should be strong. I wish she had some kind of evasion.
Hexproof seems appropriate. Oh well.
I'm going to buy a party blower and wait until the moment in testing when I play this after psychatog and blow it right in my opponent's face. Also there will be confetti. And a moon bounce.
I have a feeling I'm going to end up really liking simic in this set once its fully spoiled, cube or no cube. This guy, evolve in general, and the fellow that evolves and draws cards, it all seems very fun. It's not the more self-sufficient version of the lorwyn machine-folk that I was hoping for, but it's fun.
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I think this is the problem right here. I'm keen to try this gal out, perhaps in place of SSS as a more interesting alternative.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Either the Silverheart is paired, in which case Zegana enters with at least 8 +1/+1 counters and draws 9 cards, or he's unpaired, in which case Zegana enters with at least 4 +1/+1 counters, pairs with Silverheart, and draws nine cards.
Either way, winsauce.
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High cost cards that are great when you are doing well, but mediocre or just plain awful when you are not don't have a strong history. We will see.
Is this card a top X simic card? I don't know and I don't care. If it's not significantly better than any blue or green finisher I run, I'm certainly not going to run it.
Actually, I think that with a 3/3 out you get a 4/4 for 6 mana that draws you 4 cards not three, since the card says it draws cards equal to its power and Zegana is a base 1/1 creature.
It makes the card a little better anyway.
Arcanis? Consecrated Sphinx? This one passes the terminate test and possibly has a bigger body, possible can draw more cards, but also be worse. It lacks evasion like sphinx or protection like Arcanis. It draws all the cards up front instead of progressively over turns.
I probably have room in my huge multicolor section, but I'm not certain if this is worth it.
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Mulldrifter without the flexibility, evasion, or ability to draw cards if your board is empty. Also cannot be ramped out by colorless mana sources. I think it is a far, far cry from Mulldrifter.
I ask again, how many cards do you need when you have 2GGUU main phase available and a solid board presence? Which six drop is this better than?
Too all the people saying its bad in reanimator... Sure its no elesh norn or ... woodfall primus, but if you have a 3/3 bear out its draw 4 cards and get a 4/4. I'm really thinking this is my #1 for the set. I don't think I've ever said anything like this before, but I'm pretty sure you guys will turn around on zegana. Some people play Sphinx's revelation and I'd say this is a lot better then that card. Different colors but still.
I would say my simic section is this.
1. Mystic Snake
2. Coiling Oracle
3. THIS
4. Edric
5. shardless agent.
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I'd much rather run Simic Sky Swallower in the Simic beef department. You can play SSS in U/G, off a splash in a base G or U deck, or just as a straight reanimation/natural order target. Zegana only fits easily in straight G/U, and I'd still pick most of the existing blue and green 6 drops over it (C. Sphinx, P. Titan, Upheaval) which means this is going to wheel a lot and sit in sideboards a lot.
Bonus for it possibly bumping a card with hexproof or shourd. They are powerful but universally hated by my group so I have to be careful with them.
And I will never, not ever use Wurmcoil Engine as the benchmark for getting things into my cube. It is truely a dark day when average power levels get that high.
All of this. I run gold cards for the purpose of enticing players into those colors. When a card can barely even compete in either of its colors, let alone when it requires doubles of both, it is going to be wheeling and wheeling and wheeling.
I could be wrong, but I much, much, much prefer the other, less volatile options. Zegana seems like a classic win more most of the time.
but in the right deck this card is very good.
Blink effects + recurring nightmare type shenangins + a bunch of thragtusk/chameleon type creatures on a G/U/x deck
In a smaller cube where versatility was important id probably not play this card, but I'd include it in a larger cube for sure.
What I like about this card compared to say Obzedat, is it encourges smart deck building and synergy to optimize... I always want to encourage cards like this.
I'd be careful about the number of 5+ drops in the cube. If its starting to oversaturate (which I think it will eventually because of the direction R&D seems to be taking magic) I wouldn't include the card.
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"Good if you have a "3/3" is a bad endorsement for a reanimator target.
"Oh indeed"
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Also:
"Good only if you have a "3/3 or greater" seems like an iffy endorsement for a six drop finisher.
I can't wait to curve into this after a Thragtusk and draw 6 cards.
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Its like consecrated sphinx, not a finisher but a tank of gas. I cant wait to break this with recursion
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Again, power level is not something this card is short on. If it was 4GG, 4UU, or 4UG I would give it a strong look for inclusion. At 2UUGG it's just not the type of card I like in my cube.
I think it is a terrible draw spell, because A) It's expensive. B) It is a sorcery, so say goodbye to countering/responding to things C) It opens you up to blowout via instant speed removal and worst of all D) It is a 1/1 cantrip for 6 when I need it to be a draw spell most.
Will it lead to amazing plays. fun, and blowouts? Yes. Will it win you games you wouldn't otherwise win? Maybe, but we'll see. I can't think of any 6 drops or 6 cost spells I'd run it over. Time Spiral? Upheaval?
Cubes small enough to only be using 4 UG cards won't have room for it anyways, so it's only making the cut in med-large sized cubes anyways.
Cool! I'm not going to force you to cube with it.
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