ummm... not sure if I am the only one who thinks that Thragtusk makes this girl pretty consistent.
Sure, I would have hoped for better. We got what we got. She isn't bad, unless you have no creatures.
I am betting her design was with intent to evolve everything, and that's all. I don't mind that you *can* draw cards off her.
People are more concerned with she can be a dead card... well, yea. Supreme Verdict and Terminus are the only cards that really make her a dead card. I guess a Miracle Bonfire of the Damned or overload Mizzium Mortars might... but really, past that she doesn't have a whole lot of concern and if Thragtusk is out she is consistent enough.
You realise this isn't the standard forum? Your post makes litle sense in cube context.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Why on earth would I want to pay six mana in two different colors for a potential bear that draws two cards? Haven't we been brought up to expect more from our multicolor bombs? This lady feels way too much like playing the lottery. By including this card, you're basically gambling that you'll have at least one 3/3 or better by turn six, or whenever you manage to pull together that ridiculous mana cost. I'm not really liking those odds. And I really prefer bombs that excel on their own rather than needing other cards to be good.
Why on earth would I want to pay six mana in two different colors for a potential bear that draws two cards? Haven't we been brought up to expect more from our multicolor bombs? This lady feels way too much like playing the lottery. By including this card, you're basically gambling that you'll have at least one 3/3 or better by turn six, or whenever you manage to pull together that ridiculous mana cost. I'm not really liking those odds. And I really prefer bombs that excel on their own rather than needing other cards to be good.
How in the world is getting a 3 power creature by turn 6 a hard thing to do? Seriously, you are in green. You s*** out 3 power drops like it was your birthday. You are blue you can protect said 3 power drops with your 1337 magicks. you have 3 power 2 drops, 3+ power 3 drops, 4+ power 4 drops, 5+ power 5 drops. It really isnt that hard. Have you tested Zegana? In my testing she usually hits as a 5/5 or 6/6, which means shes drawing you 5 or 6 cards. Thats value. Sure, it stinks when i play poorly or really need to do something to avoid losing and play her as a 1/1 or 2/2 but it is really really really easy to have a creature with power 3 or greater.
Why on earth would I want to pay six mana in two different colors for a potential bear that draws two cards? Haven't we been brought up to expect more from our multicolor bombs? This lady feels way too much like playing the lottery. By including this card, you're basically gambling that you'll have at least one 3/3 or better by turn six, or whenever you manage to pull together that ridiculous mana cost. I'm not really liking those odds. And I really prefer bombs that excel on their own rather than needing other cards to be good.
you don't like the odds of having a 3/3 beyond turn 6 in blue green?
The mana cost is not ridiculous. Eidolon already crunched the numbers and it's literally completely negligible in a blue green deck. If you expect this to be a bear, as in, you only have a 1/1 on turn 6 then I must question what you've been trying to do with your deck.
Yes, it needs another card. it needs one good creature, and if you have that one creature that is not at all hard to obtain in blue green, you're gaining insane CA. I would happily play this after Thrun, troll ascetic, phantom centaur, wild mongrel, tarmogoyf, dungeon geists, morphling, chameleon colossus, vengevine, serendib efreet, call of the herd, garruk 1, garruk 2, vorapede, etc, etc, etc...
This isn't a slam dunk 360 inclusion, but it's a solid card that can generate some pretty silly card advantage in cube.
Honestly, she has enough synergy with many of the engine cards in cube that I think her inclusion will lead to some interesting plays at the very least. She seems like a very strong play on a board with any medium (3+ power preferably) sized creature, regardless of whether your losing, stalled, or ahead because the cards you draw off of her will give you plenty of fuel to warrant "overextending" for.
Prime Speaker Zegana enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it, where X is the greatest power among other creatures you control.
When Prime Speaker Zegana enters the battlefield, draw cards equal to its power. 1/1
You guys realize that she ALWAYS draws AT LEAST 1 card right? I know paying six mana for 1 card is TERRIBLE but she ALWAYS replaces herself and that's not something to be overlooked. Also, most of us run cards like Venser(at least 1 flavor), Man-o-War, Momentary Blink (obviously on the splash), Lark, etc.. that totally bust her wide open! I can totally imagine myself first picking her and drafting a deck around here where i just have infinite gas and pummel my opponents in the card advantage. Isn't this EXACTLY the kind of card we want to have in our cube? An archetype DEFINING curve topper that absolutely closes out games?
If I am playing green having a creature on the table was never a problem.
On the other hand a single creature on your side of the table doesn't really equal that you are already winning.
Exactly this. Having a 3/3 or 4 power creature does not mean that the game is over in your favor and is VERY common in green decks.
I can't think of a single 6+ cc card that is not "WIN". And all the current ones are "WIN" even when you have no creature on the board. If you have no creature on the board, Zegana is a 6cc Merchant of Secrets. That's lame. There are scenarios where Zegana will be awesome (such as curving her after Thragtusk), but I would not rank her amongst the Top 6 Simic cards. I'm not even sure I'll rank her in the Top 10.
This is my problem, I'd rather run any other finisher which is better in all cases than a conditional one which draws cards instead of being resilient. I'd been looking long and hard at this card and I think it ranks around 6 or 7 in Simic. The fact I don't have any 6 mana green or blue cards is a plus for it, but I'll keep it to EDH or as a draftable general for when I want to play EDH cube.
I can't think of a single 6+ cc card that is not "WIN". And all the current ones are "WIN" even when you have no creature on the board.
There is a difference between "Win More" and "Insuring the Win". Yes the other 6+cc cards can be played on an empty board. But they can be answered by the same *** effect that you're so sure makes this unplayable. This gives you the CA to continue your winning position if they happen to have an answer to your threats. And no, I'm really not concerned with the "extremely hard setup" of having at least a 3 power creature in play.
There is a difference between "Win More" and "Insuring the Win". Yes the other 6+cc cards can be played on an empty board. But they can be answered by the same *** effect that you're so sure makes this unplayable. This gives you the CA to continue your winning position if they happen to have an answer to your threats. And no, I'm really not concerned with the "extremely hard setup" of having at least a 3 power creature in play.
I really like her. GU ramp is a common deck type in my cube.
Ramp the first few turns, drop a midrange guy to stabilize / produce a threat, then cast Zegana to refill your hand. While she is not a reliable finisher herself, she will help you draw your real finishers. As well as counter magic or bounce effects. And a 4/4 or 5/5 - even without any evasion or protection - is still a threat that your opponent cannot ignore.
I really like her. GU ramp is a common deck type in my cube.
Ramp the first few turns, drop a midrange guy to stabilize / produce a threat, then cast Zegana to refill your hand. While she is not a reliable finisher herself, she will help you draw your real finishers. As well as counter magic or bounce effects. And a 4/4 or 5/5 - even without any evasion or protection - is still a threat that your opponent cannot ignore.
I feel like this myself. I often have need for some midsize threats 3/3 beats, wolfir avenger, thrun. etc. that come out to hold down aggro before I can get all the way to my biggest stuff. I rarely am winning at that stage and if I am it is against control where every card advantage card is great. Yes this walks into sweepers but it eliminated that card advantage they gained from them. I say it is worth it.
Yes it is poor interaction with something like somberwald sage(but I don't think anyone is playing that). I think it a fine turn 3 play after rofellos. 6 mana draw 3 and get a 3/3.
I think it a fine turn 3 play after rofellos. 6 mana draw 3 and get a 3/3.
I guess you have tropical island and breeding pool out? Sure, that would be a cool play. But I think it illustrates the problematic nature of this card's mana cost more than anything.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I guess you have tropical island and breeding pool out? Sure, that would be a cool play. But I think it illustrates the problematic nature of this card's mana cost more than anything.
Or drop a bird of paradise on turn 1, or any other elf and one dual. Or natural order your 1 drop, or GSZ...... I think these two will play very well together.
As a side note this card may increase my likelyhood of playing pongify or beat within.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
You seem to think this card is good early but it won't be the vast majority of the time.
I was referring to the turn after you drop rofellos(otheres thought the mana cost would make that very unlikely) and trying to point out that in a ramp deck this card may come down pretty fast. Clearly I wouldn't do it for a 1/1 and a card but I think this card could be very good mid game to make up for the disadvantage of blowing a few cards on your ramp.
She's not only good when you're winning. In fact, she's great when you have some board position but can't crack a stalemate or you're being outclassed by your opponent's board. If your bear can't break through their beast, You can drop her to get a beast and draw 3 cards in the process. I don't imagine that's too uncommon a situation in the cube. It's pretty rare when my green decks don't have at least 1-2 small to medium-sized creatures out. But that doesn't mean I'm winning. It simply means I've been doing something. I can still be losing with a 2 or 3 power creature on the board, and in those situations, I'll gladly play a creature that draws me lots of cards to A) even up or take advantage with the board state and B) draw the fuel needed to stay ahead in the coming turns.
So apparently now there are two tests
Vindicate test: drawing 4-7 cards on cast prolly counts as passing this
Wrath of god test: What exactly passes this test? Thragtusk and Wurmcoil engine? Edit: Def Reveillark. persist guys
I run like 6 wraths in 380, wrath, DoJ, Damnation, BSZ, Supreme verdict, something else i think, and a huge suite of removal but I think there has been abuot 1 game when testing zegana when i didn't have any creatures out, so i waited to play my six drop and drew four cards when i did play her. Its like saying Yawgy's will is bad because turn three there aren't any good spells in the yard. You are building your deck with this card in mind and strategizing constantly, its not boom 6 mana play this win game no matter what...
So apparently now there are two tests
Vindicate test: drawing 4-7 cards on cast prolly counts as passing this
Wrath of god test: What exactly passes this test? Thragtusk and Wurmcoil engine? Edit: Def Reveillark. persist guys
I run like 6 wraths in 380, wrath, DoJ, Damnation, BSZ, Supreme verdict, something else i think, and a huge suite of removal but I think there has been abuot 1 game when testing zegana when i didn't have any creatures out, so i waited to play my six drop and drew four cards when i did play her. Its like saying Yawgy's will is bad because turn three there aren't any good spells in the yard. You are building your deck with this card in mind and strategizing constantly, its not boom 6 mana play this win game no matter what...
"She" is also vulnerable to instant speed removal.
Again, I think a discussion of value is the wrong approach to this card. What we need to discuss is relative value. How often will this card be win you games that the other options at 6 mana (be it Consecrated Sphinx, Prime Titan, Wurmcoil, Upheaval, or Time Spiral) won't? It has to be a fair amount, because we can all see that there are a significant amount of times where it will lose you games that other cards will not.
I think I might have to test this card myself, because I am worried that the blowouts are going to skew peoples feelings. It is going to feel super powerful when you end up drawing eight cards off of her, but all I care is if she won me games that other six drops couldn't, or sat in my hand useless when other six drops could have kicked ass.
She's not only good when you're winning. In fact, she's great when you have some board position but can't crack a stalemate or you're being outclassed by your opponent's board. If your bear can't break through their beast, You can drop her to get a beast and draw 3 cards in the process. I don't imagine that's too uncommon a situation in the cube. It's pretty rare when my green decks don't have at least 1-2 small to medium-sized creatures out. But that doesn't mean I'm winning. It simply means I've been doing something. I can still be losing with a 2 or 3 power creature on the board, and in those situations, I'll gladly play a creature that draws me lots of cards to A) even up or take advantage with the board state and B) draw the fuel needed to stay ahead in the coming turns.
I don't disagree with any of this. I think the card is too narrow for my 360 cube because if its cost and function but this looks like a fair description of it.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
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You realise this isn't the standard forum? Your post makes litle sense in cube context.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
this, a thousand times this. it makes no sense at all.
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How in the world is getting a 3 power creature by turn 6 a hard thing to do? Seriously, you are in green. You s*** out 3 power drops like it was your birthday. You are blue you can protect said 3 power drops with your 1337 magicks. you have 3 power 2 drops, 3+ power 3 drops, 4+ power 4 drops, 5+ power 5 drops. It really isnt that hard. Have you tested Zegana? In my testing she usually hits as a 5/5 or 6/6, which means shes drawing you 5 or 6 cards. Thats value. Sure, it stinks when i play poorly or really need to do something to avoid losing and play her as a 1/1 or 2/2 but it is really really really easy to have a creature with power 3 or greater.
Assuming WCS makes everything look bad.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
you don't like the odds of having a 3/3 beyond turn 6 in blue green?
The mana cost is not ridiculous. Eidolon already crunched the numbers and it's literally completely negligible in a blue green deck. If you expect this to be a bear, as in, you only have a 1/1 on turn 6 then I must question what you've been trying to do with your deck.
Yes, it needs another card. it needs one good creature, and if you have that one creature that is not at all hard to obtain in blue green, you're gaining insane CA. I would happily play this after Thrun, troll ascetic, phantom centaur, wild mongrel, tarmogoyf, dungeon geists, morphling, chameleon colossus, vengevine, serendib efreet, call of the herd, garruk 1, garruk 2, vorapede, etc, etc, etc...
This isn't a slam dunk 360 inclusion, but it's a solid card that can generate some pretty silly card advantage in cube.
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When Prime Speaker Zegana enters the battlefield, draw cards equal to its power. 1/1
You guys realize that she ALWAYS draws AT LEAST 1 card right? I know paying six mana for 1 card is TERRIBLE but she ALWAYS replaces herself and that's not something to be overlooked. Also, most of us run cards like Venser(at least 1 flavor), Man-o-War, Momentary Blink (obviously on the splash), Lark, etc.. that totally bust her wide open! I can totally imagine myself first picking her and drafting a deck around here where i just have infinite gas and pummel my opponents in the card advantage. Isn't this EXACTLY the kind of card we want to have in our cube? An archetype DEFINING curve topper that absolutely closes out games?
Exactly this. Having a 3/3 or 4 power creature does not mean that the game is over in your favor and is VERY common in green decks.
But having one of those and dropping a 4/4 or 5/5 that also draws 4-5 cards probably does mean the game is over.
This is my problem, I'd rather run any other finisher which is better in all cases than a conditional one which draws cards instead of being resilient. I'd been looking long and hard at this card and I think it ranks around 6 or 7 in Simic. The fact I don't have any 6 mana green or blue cards is a plus for it, but I'll keep it to EDH or as a draftable general for when I want to play EDH cube.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
There is a difference between "Win More" and "Insuring the Win". Yes the other 6+cc cards can be played on an empty board. But they can be answered by the same *** effect that you're so sure makes this unplayable. This gives you the CA to continue your winning position if they happen to have an answer to your threats. And no, I'm really not concerned with the "extremely hard setup" of having at least a 3 power creature in play.
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RWU Miracles RWU
Ramp the first few turns, drop a midrange guy to stabilize / produce a threat, then cast Zegana to refill your hand. While she is not a reliable finisher herself, she will help you draw your real finishers. As well as counter magic or bounce effects. And a 4/4 or 5/5 - even without any evasion or protection - is still a threat that your opponent cannot ignore.
We get aggressive GU decks so seldomly, I think I replace Edric, Spymaster of Trest with her.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I feel like this myself. I often have need for some midsize threats 3/3 beats, wolfir avenger, thrun. etc. that come out to hold down aggro before I can get all the way to my biggest stuff. I rarely am winning at that stage and if I am it is against control where every card advantage card is great. Yes this walks into sweepers but it eliminated that card advantage they gained from them. I say it is worth it.
Yes it is poor interaction with something like somberwald sage(but I don't think anyone is playing that). I think it a fine turn 3 play after rofellos. 6 mana draw 3 and get a 3/3.
I guess you have tropical island and breeding pool out? Sure, that would be a cool play. But I think it illustrates the problematic nature of this card's mana cost more than anything.
Or drop a bird of paradise on turn 1, or any other elf and one dual. Or natural order your 1 drop, or GSZ...... I think these two will play very well together.
As a side note this card may increase my likelyhood of playing pongify or beat within.
For a 1/1 and a card?
You seem to think this card is good early but it won't be the vast majority of the time.
I was referring to the turn after you drop rofellos(otheres thought the mana cost would make that very unlikely) and trying to point out that in a ramp deck this card may come down pretty fast. Clearly I wouldn't do it for a 1/1 and a card but I think this card could be very good mid game to make up for the disadvantage of blowing a few cards on your ramp.
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Vindicate test: drawing 4-7 cards on cast prolly counts as passing this
Wrath of god test: What exactly passes this test? Thragtusk and Wurmcoil engine? Edit: Def Reveillark. persist guys
I run like 6 wraths in 380, wrath, DoJ, Damnation, BSZ, Supreme verdict, something else i think, and a huge suite of removal but I think there has been abuot 1 game when testing zegana when i didn't have any creatures out, so i waited to play my six drop and drew four cards when i did play her. Its like saying Yawgy's will is bad because turn three there aren't any good spells in the yard. You are building your deck with this card in mind and strategizing constantly, its not boom 6 mana play this win game no matter what...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
"She" is also vulnerable to instant speed removal.
Again, I think a discussion of value is the wrong approach to this card. What we need to discuss is relative value. How often will this card be win you games that the other options at 6 mana (be it Consecrated Sphinx, Prime Titan, Wurmcoil, Upheaval, or Time Spiral) won't? It has to be a fair amount, because we can all see that there are a significant amount of times where it will lose you games that other cards will not.
I think I might have to test this card myself, because I am worried that the blowouts are going to skew peoples feelings. It is going to feel super powerful when you end up drawing eight cards off of her, but all I care is if she won me games that other six drops couldn't, or sat in my hand useless when other six drops could have kicked ass.
I don't disagree with any of this. I think the card is too narrow for my 360 cube because if its cost and function but this looks like a fair description of it.