"She" is also vulnerable to instant speed removal.
Again, I think a discussion of value is the wrong approach to this card. What we need to discuss is relative value. How often will this card be win you games that the other options at 6 mana (be it Consecrated Sphinx, Prime Titan, Wurmcoil, Upheaval, or Time Spiral) won't? It has to be a fair amount, because we can all see that there are a significant amount of times where it will lose you games that other cards will not.
I think I might have to test this card myself, because I am worried that the blowouts are going to skew peoples feelings. It is going to feel super powerful when you end up drawing eight cards off of her, but all I care is if she won me games that other six drops couldn't, or sat in my hand useless when other six drops could have kicked ass.
I would argue that it is actually better at winning games than consecrated sphinx and prime time. Wurmcoil and upheaval are better then zegana its true, and I dont own time spiral so I cant say anything about it. Instant speed mass removal is few and far between as I can guarantee that most times you can play a 6 drop you have 1 or more creatures out on the board.
Do your games usually only have 1 creature per side?
If they do then you probably shouldn't run this. I run a large suite of removal in a relatively small cube, but I generally have multiple creatures on the board at the same time except when a wrath has recently been played. Especially in a green deck I expect to have one or two 3+ power creatures when i have 6 mana open. I'm arguing that this significant amount of times that it will be useless in hand is ridiculously low and hence insignificant. I'm really confused about how vulnerable creatures seem to be in your cube. 180/360 cards being wrath of god isn't a very common approach to cube construction.
Hyp scenario Choose cons Sphinx, Primeval Titan, Zegana
Llanowar elf, Thragtusk token on your side
opponent has 1 doomblade in hand
Conc sphinx -> 1/1 and 3/3 and dead sphinx instantly
Prime time -> 1/1 and 3/3 with 2 lands into play(good if you have lands you want but a lot of the time its just getting 2 basics or 2 duals)
Zegana -> 1/1 and 2/2 draw 2.
In this situation I would rather have zegana then the other two. This is a pretty bad scenario as well.
This isn't directly related to Zegana's playability, but I just realized that she is a mirror image of the Simic promo card, Fathom Mage.
Fathom Mage evolves and draws with new creatures entering the board, while Zegana can instantly "evolve" and draw based on what is already there. It's a neat little bit of parallel design, imo!
I think with all the value creatures like Trag, Wurmcoil etc kill free removal goes up in value. Icy, faith's fetters, Maze of Ith etc. this creature is going to break that stall hard. Consecrated Sphinx will as well but I am not replacing one with the other.
Hyp scenario Choose cons Sphinx, Primeval Titan, Zegana
Llanowar elf, Thragtusk token on your side
opponent has 1 doomblade in hand
Conc sphinx -> 1/1 and 3/3 and dead sphinx instantly
Prime time -> 1/1 and 3/3 with 2 lands into play(good if you have lands you want but a lot of the time its just getting 2 basics or 2 duals)
Zegana -> 1/1 and 2/2 draw 2.
In this situation I would rather have zegana then the other two. This is a pretty bad scenario as well.
This scenario sort of illustrates my feeliongs about the card. Here we have a bad, but certainly not worst case scenario (worst case being 1 creature out w/ instant speed or zero creatures) and Zegana still isn't providing a lot of marginal value over a lot of six drops. And certainly if they had no removal, we would prefer at least some of the other six drops, right?
Do I generally have a bigish creature in play by the time I hit six mana in a ramp deck? Depends on how the game has gone. If things have gone to plan, I have dropped a mana creature or two, and a 4-5 drop before hitting six. There are a ton of situations where this does not happen though. Big starts by aggro cause me to block with my mana dorks. Smart players also tend to target elves early when they can. Wraths and other mass removers. Color screw. Not drawing a midrange ramper. There are a ton of situations where the "plan" doesn't play out as expected in magic, and it is only made worse in a high powered highlander format.
Even when the "plan" goes perfectly ( 1 drop elf > 2-3 drop ramper > Thragtusk > This guy) I'm still not sold on how much marginal value this guy holds. I have no doubt that he will win you some games that Wurmcoil or Karn or Time Spiral or Capsize w/ buyback (or whatever else fills this slot in deckbuilding). I'm just doubtful it will make up for the close games you will lose due to its downside.
I am certainly prepared to be wrong, but we shall see.
My thought is that it provides more utility then consecrated sphinx or prime time, and acts as a big dumb beater when you need it to most of the time. If it gets dealt with it presumably draws you more gas, which on average will be 4 cards. Thats a lot more then other big dumb beaters.
My thought is that it provides more utility then consecrated sphinx or prime time, and acts as a big dumb beater when you need it to most of the time. If it gets dealt with it presumably draws you more gas, which on average will be 4 cards. Thats a lot more then other big dumb beaters.
Other big dumb beaters don't need other creatures in play to make them good. I'm not saying I won't cube with Zegana (I'll likely test her) but there will be times when she'll be underwhelming.
To put it another way, I'm not sure the "average" or even "median" case of what this card does matters. If she draws 2+ cards four out of five times, that might not be good enough.
the thought experiment was designed to show that even in one of her worst scenarios she still competes with other 6 drops.
I got that. My response was to show that A) I don't think it is one of her worst scenarios, and B) even in a lot of better scenarios, she isn't much better than the competition.
At this point, I think we need to test to see how realistic all this theorizing is.
One last perspective before we declare the horse well and truly beaten.
Guys...this card just looks...FUN. I can be as Spiky as the next cube designer (well, not some of you guys...damn), but she's just got my Timmy juices flowing.
I don't know about you, but I cube for awesome memories. I remember the one time I hardcast emrakul and my opponent topdecks O-Ring. I remember the time I took infinite turns with venser, eternal witness and time walk. I remember the time I stuck an upheaval under shelldock isle (that was filthy...).
Know what I don't remember? The games where I drop simic sky swallower and they don't have an answer and then I win.
Know what I expect to remember? The time I have to count the number of cards left in my deck before I play her because I'm worried that when I draw 17 cards off of my primordial hydra, I may deck myself. I don't know about you, but that sounds like an amazing story my playgroup would think fondly on for years.
Know what I don't expect to remember? The time I topdeck her after a wrath and lose because I can't cast her for value. If anything, that might actually be a funny memory. Like drawing a fetchland or bitterblossom when you're at 1. "Well, that's awkward. On to game two!"
She looks FUN. That's it. We're not playing in the pro-tour of cube. Your simic match win percentage my drop a fraction of a percent if you take out a marginally "better" card for her, but take a chance and live a little. You might just be happier in the long run.
One last perspective before we declare the horse well and truly beaten.
Guys...this card just looks...FUN. I can be as Spiky as the next cube designer (well, not some of you guys...damn), but she's just got my Timmy juices flowing.
I don't know about you, but I cube for awesome memories. I remember the one time I hardcast emrakul and my opponent topdecks O-Ring. I remember the time I took infinite turns with venser, eternal witness and time walk. I remember the time I stuck an upheaval under shelldock isle (that was filthy...).
Know what I don't remember? The games where I drop simic sky swallower and they don't have an answer and then I win.
Know what I expect to remember? The time I have to count the number of cards left in my deck before I play her because I'm worried that when I draw 17 cards off of my primordial hydra, I may deck myself. I don't know about you, but that sounds like an amazing story my playgroup would think fondly on for years.
Know what I don't expect to remember? The time I topdeck her after a wrath and lose because I can't cast her for value. If anything, that might actually be a funny memory. Like drawing a fetchland or bitterblossom when you're at 1. "Well, that's awkward. On to game two!"
She looks FUN. That's it. We're not playing in the pro-tour of cube. Your simic match win percentage my drop a fraction of a percent if you take out a marginally "better" card for her, but take a chance and live a little. You might just be happier in the long run.
Exactly this. I'm not really sure how good this card will be but I plan on playing it.
I really think the search function is subpar in this site. I couldnt find the cube forum in the options to search specific forums. It also rarely find what i want. For example i looked up angel of serenity and couldnt find the scd.
I really think the search function is subpar in this site. I couldnt find the cube forum in the options to search specific forums. It also rarely find what i want. For example i looked up angel of serenity and couldnt find the scd.
A "search this forum" button would be SO helpful I agree. I actually have scrolling to the Cube forum option down as a habit haha.
EDIT:
If you go to advanced search, type "Angel AND Serenity " pick the cube forum, pick "show as threads" (default) and choose to only show results from the last 6 months then the SCD is the first thread on the second page of results.
I find it more convenient to use the incredible compilation thread to read SCDs however.
I'll be honest however, I find using the search to work better by showing posts and reading the little thumb preview to determine relevance. You get a bunch of list posts but its not terribly hard to filter out the interesting posts. One issue is that the timeline gets broken up because it shows all posts in chronological order from one thread then shifts to the next thread.
First couple test drafts with this card are going well. I have had it resolve 3 times, and it's ranged from solid to "call your friends and tell them what I just did with Prime Time Zegana." I ramped into it early with a Lotus Cobra in play and was able to draw 3 cards and have a 3/3 out. It wasn't spectacular, but a beast body and a concentrate is still fine, especially since I was down to 1 card in hand when she resolved because of an opponent's Hymn. Ending your curve with a beater and a fair amount of draw is very good for UG.
Now, the second time she resolved was the money story. I was playing Bant and had a Reveillark in play (I thought that might be fun with PSZ). Getting a 5/5 and drawing 5 cards is just as sick as you think it is. But the story doesn't end there. My opponent has an answer for Zegana, so she dies, but they're very weary of killing the 'lark because I had a Witness and STE in my 'yard. Point is, after I made a Garruk Beast token and attacked a Sword of War and Peace to it, I was able to get Zegana back with a Reveillark trigger (I bounced it myself) and had Zegana choose the 5/5 beast, drawing me 6 more cards. Completely insane. She drew me 11 cards in that game.
In the second draft, she only resolved once. Targeting a Troll Ascetic and becoming a 4/4 with a Tidings strapped to it at the end of the curve. That was fantastic.
Gonna be testing her on Saturday, trying to get an 8-man in and make sure the Gatecrash cards get into the main 360 and not the sad pile. I'll drop a report, but I'm expecting generally good things from her - as long as you can stick her onto anything of reasonable (>1) size she's useful at worst and amazing at best.
First couple test drafts with this card are going well. I have had it resolve 3 times, and it's ranged from solid to "call your friends and tell them what I just did with Prime Time Zegana." I ramped into it early with a Lotus Cobra in play and was able to draw 3 cards and have a 3/3 out. It wasn't spectacular, but a beast body and a concentrate is still fine, especially since I was down to 1 card in hand when she resolved because of an opponent's Hymn. Ending your curve with a beater and a fair amount of draw is very good for UG.
Now, the second time she resolved was the money story. I was playing Bant and had a Reveillark in play (I thought that might be fun with PSZ). Getting a 5/5 and drawing 5 cards is just as sick as you think it is. But the story doesn't end there. My opponent has an answer for Zegana, so she dies, but they're very weary of killing the 'lark because I had a Witness and STE in my 'yard. Point is, after I made a Garruk Beast token and attacked a Sword of War and Peace to it, I was able to get Zegana back with a Reveillark trigger (I bounced it myself) and had Zegana choose the 5/5 beast, drawing me 6 more cards. Completely insane. She drew me 11 cards in that game.
In the second draft, she only resolved once. Targeting a Troll Ascetic and becoming a 4/4 with a Tidings strapped to it at the end of the curve. That was fantastic.
The fact it in fact not the same makes her better. If she targeted she would be so muchslightly worse.
FYP. Targeting is not that big of a disadvantage. It is not like most cubes are full of Skulking cards, protection from Green and Blue or Shroud. Sure, once in a blue moon it can make a difference, but calling it so much worse seems hyperbole to me.
The fact it in fact not the same makes her better. If she targeted she would be so much worse.
I get that. I was pointing out that in the scenario I posted, it happened to be irrelevant. Of course it can be important when your opponent has a response to her coming into play. Targeting would make it fizzle.
I would argue that it is actually better at winning games than consecrated sphinx and prime time. Wurmcoil and upheaval are better then zegana its true, and I dont own time spiral so I cant say anything about it. Instant speed mass removal is few and far between as I can guarantee that most times you can play a 6 drop you have 1 or more creatures out on the board.
Do your games usually only have 1 creature per side?
If they do then you probably shouldn't run this. I run a large suite of removal in a relatively small cube, but I generally have multiple creatures on the board at the same time except when a wrath has recently been played. Especially in a green deck I expect to have one or two 3+ power creatures when i have 6 mana open. I'm arguing that this significant amount of times that it will be useless in hand is ridiculously low and hence insignificant. I'm really confused about how vulnerable creatures seem to be in your cube. 180/360 cards being wrath of god isn't a very common approach to cube construction.
Hyp scenario Choose cons Sphinx, Primeval Titan, Zegana
Llanowar elf, Thragtusk token on your side
opponent has 1 doomblade in hand
Conc sphinx -> 1/1 and 3/3 and dead sphinx instantly
Prime time -> 1/1 and 3/3 with 2 lands into play(good if you have lands you want but a lot of the time its just getting 2 basics or 2 duals)
Zegana -> 1/1 and 2/2 draw 2.
In this situation I would rather have zegana then the other two. This is a pretty bad scenario as well.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
Fathom Mage evolves and draws with new creatures entering the board, while Zegana can instantly "evolve" and draw based on what is already there. It's a neat little bit of parallel design, imo!
This scenario sort of illustrates my feeliongs about the card. Here we have a bad, but certainly not worst case scenario (worst case being 1 creature out w/ instant speed or zero creatures) and Zegana still isn't providing a lot of marginal value over a lot of six drops. And certainly if they had no removal, we would prefer at least some of the other six drops, right?
Do I generally have a bigish creature in play by the time I hit six mana in a ramp deck? Depends on how the game has gone. If things have gone to plan, I have dropped a mana creature or two, and a 4-5 drop before hitting six. There are a ton of situations where this does not happen though. Big starts by aggro cause me to block with my mana dorks. Smart players also tend to target elves early when they can. Wraths and other mass removers. Color screw. Not drawing a midrange ramper. There are a ton of situations where the "plan" doesn't play out as expected in magic, and it is only made worse in a high powered highlander format.
Even when the "plan" goes perfectly ( 1 drop elf > 2-3 drop ramper > Thragtusk > This guy) I'm still not sold on how much marginal value this guy holds. I have no doubt that he will win you some games that Wurmcoil or Karn or Time Spiral or Capsize w/ buyback (or whatever else fills this slot in deckbuilding). I'm just doubtful it will make up for the close games you will lose due to its downside.
I am certainly prepared to be wrong, but we shall see.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
Other big dumb beaters don't need other creatures in play to make them good. I'm not saying I won't cube with Zegana (I'll likely test her) but there will be times when she'll be underwhelming.
Cheers,
rant
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
I got that. My response was to show that A) I don't think it is one of her worst scenarios, and B) even in a lot of better scenarios, she isn't much better than the competition.
At this point, I think we need to test to see how realistic all this theorizing is.
One last perspective before we declare the horse well and truly beaten.
Guys...this card just looks...FUN. I can be as Spiky as the next cube designer (well, not some of you guys...damn), but she's just got my Timmy juices flowing.
I don't know about you, but I cube for awesome memories. I remember the one time I hardcast emrakul and my opponent topdecks O-Ring. I remember the time I took infinite turns with venser, eternal witness and time walk. I remember the time I stuck an upheaval under shelldock isle (that was filthy...).
Know what I don't remember? The games where I drop simic sky swallower and they don't have an answer and then I win.
Know what I expect to remember? The time I have to count the number of cards left in my deck before I play her because I'm worried that when I draw 17 cards off of my primordial hydra, I may deck myself. I don't know about you, but that sounds like an amazing story my playgroup would think fondly on for years.
Know what I don't expect to remember? The time I topdeck her after a wrath and lose because I can't cast her for value. If anything, that might actually be a funny memory. Like drawing a fetchland or bitterblossom when you're at 1. "Well, that's awkward. On to game two!"
She looks FUN. That's it. We're not playing in the pro-tour of cube. Your simic match win percentage my drop a fraction of a percent if you take out a marginally "better" card for her, but take a chance and live a little. You might just be happier in the long run.
Exactly this. I'm not really sure how good this card will be but I plan on playing it.
Draft it on Cube Tutor
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You know what a real dead horse topic is? Dead horse topics.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
A "search this forum" button would be SO helpful I agree. I actually have scrolling to the Cube forum option down as a habit haha.
EDIT:
If you go to advanced search, type "Angel AND Serenity " pick the cube forum, pick "show as threads" (default) and choose to only show results from the last 6 months then the SCD is the first thread on the second page of results.
I find it more convenient to use the incredible compilation thread to read SCDs however.
I'll be honest however, I find using the search to work better by showing posts and reading the little thumb preview to determine relevance. You get a bunch of list posts but its not terribly hard to filter out the interesting posts. One issue is that the timeline gets broken up because it shows all posts in chronological order from one thread then shifts to the next thread.
Now, the second time she resolved was the money story. I was playing Bant and had a Reveillark in play (I thought that might be fun with PSZ). Getting a 5/5 and drawing 5 cards is just as sick as you think it is. But the story doesn't end there. My opponent has an answer for Zegana, so she dies, but they're very weary of killing the 'lark because I had a Witness and STE in my 'yard. Point is, after I made a Garruk Beast token and attacked a Sword of War and Peace to it, I was able to get Zegana back with a Reveillark trigger (I bounced it myself) and had Zegana choose the 5/5 beast, drawing me 6 more cards. Completely insane. She drew me 11 cards in that game.
In the second draft, she only resolved once. Targeting a Troll Ascetic and becoming a 4/4 with a Tidings strapped to it at the end of the curve. That was fantastic.
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My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
The fact it in fact not the same makes her better. If she targeted she would be so much worse.
Omg this is exactly what I was hoping for.
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FYP. Targeting is not that big of a disadvantage. It is not like most cubes are full of Skulking cards, protection from Green and Blue or Shroud. Sure, once in a blue moon it can make a difference, but calling it so much worse seems hyperbole to me.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I get that. I was pointing out that in the scenario I posted, it happened to be irrelevant. Of course it can be important when your opponent has a response to her coming into play. Targeting would make it fizzle.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
t1 arbor elf
t2 farseek, arbor elf
t3 crypt ghast, corpsejack menace
t4 24/24 primordial hydra
t5 145/145 zegana. you are dead.
EDIT: Add laboratory maniac into turn 5 and you get a combo win more than a troll loss