i don't get the idea that this card and wrath/geddon/wildfire don't go in the same deck. they do. the only deck this isn't good in is very creature-light control. even control decks run utility guys, walls, etc. and every deck can take advantage of the best two options.
1) Doesn't work with the lands part of Wildfire (although it does with Burning)
2) You can definitely blow someone out with this + any sweeper, but generally if you have two extra mana after wildfire/wrath/geddon you're in good shape anyway. The only time Boros Charm helps in a control deck is when you're not already breaking the synergy of a sweeper, and that means you're casting the sweeper defensively, which also means you may not even have the two extra mana available to cast Charm in response.
Basically I don't want a card in my control deck that is only usable in a situation where I already have a sweeper (since the other two modes are very aggro-focused). This is an aggro card first and foremost, which can find use in some midrange decks and maybe come out of the sideboard in a control deck.
Not trying to rag on the card, I think it's a great inclusion overall for the kind of weak Boros section. It's definitely going in my list. It's just not the type of card I want in my control decks.
I think Boros is pretty stacked with great options (if you're running 5 or less Boros cards) and I can't imagine passing on including this in a Boros deck, even a control one. At the very least, it can protect your critical permanents from removal and blast planeswalkers. And the double-strike interaction could be a good combat trick, double a lifelink trigger or allow a bigger creature to finish the game in one less swing. And the indestructibility can turn a board trade into a blowout. Not to mention the interactions with (and against) mass removal of all kinds.
2) You can definitely blow someone out with this + any sweeper, but generally if you have two extra mana after wildfire/wrath/geddon you're in good shape anyway. The only time Boros Charm helps in a control deck is when you're not already breaking the synergy of a sweeper, and that means you're casting the sweeper defensively, which also means you may not even have the two extra mana available to cast Charm in response.
I don't agree with this. Sometimes, they cast threats on 4 and 5 and you need to sweep them away on turn 6. Sometimes, they try to burn out your wall post-combat that is holding their big threat back. Sometimes, you want to blow up their lands in a mid-late game stall (esp. vs. blue decks) but doing so stunts your own development. Sometimes, you don't draw Armageddon until turn 6 or later.
Basically I don't want a card in my control deck that is only usable in a situation where I already have a sweeper (since the other two modes are very aggro-focused). This is an aggro card first and foremost, which can find use in some midrange decks and maybe come out of the sideboard in a control deck.
Sometimes, they try to Armageddon you! Also, if I'm playing big board sweepers like Armageddon, Akroma's Vengeance, Burning, Obliterate/Jokulhaups etc, there is NO WAY I'm not including Boros Charm if I have access to the colors. Why wouldn't you, not only for the blowout potential, but to protect yourself from PWs and possibly to save some defending creatures?
It's a great card, three stellar modes in a format filled with board wipes, equipments and planeswalkers, I think it is more versatile than Slayers' Stronghold or Lightning Helixand it is another great spell for Isochron Scepter. It will find a place in my 360.
I don't agree with this. Sometimes, they cast threats on 4 and 5 and you need to sweep them away on turn 6.
Again, in your situation the card is only good when I already have a sweeper.
Sometimes, they try to burn out your wall post-combat that is holding their big threat back.
Sometimes, they try to Armageddon you!
Ok, so it's a spin on Hindering Light. Which is totally fine out of the board in a control deck, and I already said I could see this coming in out of the board.
Sometimes, you want to blow up their lands in a mid-late game stall (esp. vs. blue decks) but doing so stunts your own development. Sometimes, you don't draw Armageddon until turn 6 or later.
I consider Armageddon to be a disruptive play, not a controlling one. Semantics maybe, but words mean things as chapin has said. Spells that sweep lands/mana rocks are not concerned with answering the opponents threats, they are disrupting the opponent's ability to play threats. Boros Charm fits in a disruptive "break the synergy of the sweepers" deck, but to me that's not "control".
Also, if I'm playing big board sweepers like Armageddon, Akroma's Vengeance, Burning, Obliterate/Jokulhaups etc, there is NO WAY I'm not including Boros Charm if I have access to the colors. Why wouldn't you, not only for the blowout potential, but to protect yourself from PWs and possibly to save some defending creatures?
-AA
My view is probably tinted by my own cube. The only mass land destruction I run is Armageddon, which sees play primarily in aggressive/disruptive decks, and the only permanent sweepers I run are Nev's Disk and Elspeth Tirel. If you run the full suite of "blow everything up"s, Boros Charm definitely has a home in that "break the synergy" archetype. But again, that's not what I call "control".
The ability to hit planeswalkers is definitely relevant, but they are the least represented card type in most cubes, and some of the most threatening planeswalkers start at 5 loyalty or more anyway. Again, great out of the sideboard if your opponent had an Elspeth Knight-Errant, not something I'm that interested in main-boarding in the dark in a control deck.
All this said, I hope I'm wrong because I love cards that fit in multiple archetypes. But I don't see myself taking this in a control deck if there is anything else in the pack for me.
All this said, I hope I'm wrong because I love cards that fit in multiple archetypes. But I don't see myself taking this in a control deck if there is anything else in the pack for me.
I see a lot of reasons to put it in a control deck.
-Make my chump blocks last a turn longer vs aggro. Great in control.
-Protects finisher. Great in control.
-Protects necessary stabilizing permanents. Great in control.
-Can break symmetrical destruction effects. Great in any deck.
-Can do a lot to kill a planeswalker. Great in a non-aggressive deck that can't reliably swing into a walker the turn cycle it lands, i.e. control.
-Can close out a game faster than an opponent expects. Great in any deck.
-Can double combat damage triggers. Fringe, but still reasonable in most cube decks.
I see a lot of reasons to put it in a control deck.
-Make my chump blocks last a turn longer vs aggro. Great in control.
-Protects finisher. Great in control.
-Protects necessary stabilizing permanents. Great in control.
-Can break symmetrical destruction effects. Great in any deck.
-Can do a lot to kill a planeswalker. Great in a non-aggressive deck that can't reliably swing into a walker the turn cycle it lands, i.e. control.
-Can close out a game faster than an opponent expects. Great in any deck.
-Can double combat damage triggers. Fringe, but still reasonable in most cube decks.
Certainly. Boros Charm is stellar in aggro, but very good in control as well. It's the other way around for Lightning Helix. Helixing their aggro bear is probably the best thing you can do to stabilize.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
Nof, thanks for sharing that. Very thoughtful piece about something quite common. It reminds me of the recent post I made addressing someone's use of "gaytecrash." Still not sure if that was a typo, but I don't let that kind of thing stand. Gay (or black or female or transgender or whatever) =/= bad.
Oh, and PS, men can and do get raped. Obviously, it's not as common as women getting raped but it happens. Don't assume because you are in an all-male group that no one there has been raped (or abused).
On topic edit: I think this card is great. I think it's the #3 or #4 Boros card. It's the best or 2nd best card for cube we've gotten in this set so far (Experiment One being the competition).
Nof, thanks for sharing that. Very thoughtful piece about something quite common. It reminds me of the recent post I made addressing someone's use of "gaytecrash." Still not sure if that was a typo, but I don't let that kind of thing stand. Gay (or black or female or transgender or whatever) =/= bad.
Oh, and PS, men can and do get raped. Obviously, it's not as common as women getting raped but it happens. Don't assume because you are in an all-male group that no one there has been raped (or abused).
Word.
On topic edit: I think this card is great. I think it's the #3 or #4 Boros card. It's the best or 2nd best card for cube we've gotten in this set so far (Experiment One being the competition).
Cheers,
rant
And I would probably call it the best since it fits into more cubes. Experiment is probably the best in cubes that support green aggro, but it's not even a card for me, so I could hardly see calling it the best cube option from Gatecrash. All of this prefaced with a ". . . so far." Seeing this card come up so late gives me renewed hope for the rest of the set.
It's a narrow matchup dependent card which supports atypical r/w decks. It's a logical cut for those who don't have large gold sections and haven't already cut it.
It (Lightning Helix) isn't that narrow. The lifegain portion of the card might not always be relevant, but that doesn't make it narrow. I've lost count of the number of times this card has significantly changed race math in a matchup that isn't control v aggro. Helix sees frequent and effective maindeck play in everything from Boros Deck Wins to 5 Color Control.
This. I can't believe people are calling three mana at instant speed to creatures or players narrow. Aggro doesn't always play against control, it's a very, very good card there too. At worst, it's Searing Spear, at best, it's outrageously good. It goes in the typical boros deck.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
I can imagine in smaller sections trying it out in place of Lightning Helix but I can imagine many times drawing it and wishing it was Helix instead. Boros Charm can lead to more blowouts/interesting stories, but Helix is the more dependable, versatile card which is more important in my opinion.
I actually cut Helix when Slayers' Stronghold came out because Helix is just a value burn spell most of the time. And there is nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't make it uncuttable. It just makes it a good card. If a card comes along that offers more than Helix, then Helix gets cut, and that's what Stronghold was for me. It offers me mid- to late-game option with my early-game dudes that in many ways mirrors Lightning Helix. Boros Charm does the same thing. It offers me options that my aggro deck wants, that my midrange deck wants, and to a lesser degree a few option that my control deck can use. Options that Helix doesn't offer. Seems like an easy swap to me.
I rank them
1. Ajani Vengeant
2. Figure of Destiny
3. Boros Charm
4. Slayer's Stronghold
5. Lightning Helix
I haven't been running Lightning Helix for a while now. It's a solid spell, but same to how many people just debate Absorb is just another counter and Terminate another kill spell, Lightning Helix is "just" a burn spell. I no longer run any of the 3.
If you only have 3 slots for Boros cards, this card makes it in and Helix doesn't. If you have room for 5-6 cards in each section, sure. Both is certainly the way to go.
Fidelis: I actually know that guy from my time living in Oklahoma and gaming in Arkansas for big events. I was SHOCKED when I saw that he came up with his own line of gaming videos with that fake voice of his. His actual personality is very nice and mostly docile with just a touch of trash-talking re: games and trading.
Boogie was always a good time at those events.
And I actually think the Craig Jones vid is better than the Ultimatum or Ignite ones. There's a chance I am biased, however, as I was sitting in the same room watching it on the big screen at the PT and was swept up in the excitement of it all. It was simply amazing.
(consequently, that was the last time I q'd for a PT...maybe I should play qualifiers once in a while, since the last one I played was Innistrad sealed, heh)
Are you referring to Lightning Helix here?
How can a burn spell be narrow?
I can see cutting Helix when you run only 3 Boros cards because i agree that the Charm is better, but ... I don't think there's a single BW deck out there that doesn't actively want Helix.
I've been called out on this by three people now, and clearly it was a badly worded post.
What I meant is that in a fair number of matchups, where the lifegain is less relevant, it's a hard to cast Searing Spear. It's still a really strong card even in that WCS, and I would as you say play it in every Boros deck. My gut feeling though is it doesn't do enough to pull me into those colours, and could just easily be a red burn spell some of the time. With my 3 gold slots, I want something more exciting and impactful.
So yeah, sorry. I'm not saying it's a bad card. I'd run it every R/W deck. It's just not something I'd personally dedicate a slot to any more - I won't splash for it, and it's not significantly better than a monocolour alternative in every matchup. 'Narrow' was the wrong word to use.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
What if it cost RR? I wouldn't cube with it then, especially in a cube small enough to cut helix (like a 360, for example).
In any non-monored deck, RR is an obstacle. If you don't have RW in your boros deck, you're losing anyway.
I can totally see cutting Lightning Helix, in fact that's what's going to happen on a large scale in a couple weeks. Boros Charm is more interesting. Makes me sad, though, and happy at the same time that I'm running a C/Ube where I can keep it around for much longer.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
It's only a proxy Charm, but I swing with Grafted Wargear on Goblin Guide with Berserk follow up by Boros Charm for turn 4 wins. It's absolute sickness.
I know Berserk is my pet card, so it might not be in many cubes. But it's absolutely killer with this new Char,.
The more I continue to playtest this Charm, the more completely insane it really is. Every mode is useful and brutal. This has no business costing 2 mana.
1) Doesn't work with the lands part of Wildfire (although it does with Burning)
2) You can definitely blow someone out with this + any sweeper, but generally if you have two extra mana after wildfire/wrath/geddon you're in good shape anyway. The only time Boros Charm helps in a control deck is when you're not already breaking the synergy of a sweeper, and that means you're casting the sweeper defensively, which also means you may not even have the two extra mana available to cast Charm in response.
Basically I don't want a card in my control deck that is only usable in a situation where I already have a sweeper (since the other two modes are very aggro-focused). This is an aggro card first and foremost, which can find use in some midrange decks and maybe come out of the sideboard in a control deck.
Not trying to rag on the card, I think it's a great inclusion overall for the kind of weak Boros section. It's definitely going in my list. It's just not the type of card I want in my control decks.
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I don't agree with this. Sometimes, they cast threats on 4 and 5 and you need to sweep them away on turn 6. Sometimes, they try to burn out your wall post-combat that is holding their big threat back. Sometimes, you want to blow up their lands in a mid-late game stall (esp. vs. blue decks) but doing so stunts your own development. Sometimes, you don't draw Armageddon until turn 6 or later.
Sometimes, they try to Armageddon you! Also, if I'm playing big board sweepers like Armageddon, Akroma's Vengeance, Burning, Obliterate/Jokulhaups etc, there is NO WAY I'm not including Boros Charm if I have access to the colors. Why wouldn't you, not only for the blowout potential, but to protect yourself from PWs and possibly to save some defending creatures?
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
My cube on Deckstats
There is no other instant that was worth $16,000.
History, in Boros form.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Again, in your situation the card is only good when I already have a sweeper.
Ok, so it's a spin on Hindering Light. Which is totally fine out of the board in a control deck, and I already said I could see this coming in out of the board.
I consider Armageddon to be a disruptive play, not a controlling one. Semantics maybe, but words mean things as chapin has said. Spells that sweep lands/mana rocks are not concerned with answering the opponents threats, they are disrupting the opponent's ability to play threats. Boros Charm fits in a disruptive "break the synergy of the sweepers" deck, but to me that's not "control".
My view is probably tinted by my own cube. The only mass land destruction I run is Armageddon, which sees play primarily in aggressive/disruptive decks, and the only permanent sweepers I run are Nev's Disk and Elspeth Tirel. If you run the full suite of "blow everything up"s, Boros Charm definitely has a home in that "break the synergy" archetype. But again, that's not what I call "control".
The ability to hit planeswalkers is definitely relevant, but they are the least represented card type in most cubes, and some of the most threatening planeswalkers start at 5 loyalty or more anyway. Again, great out of the sideboard if your opponent had an Elspeth Knight-Errant, not something I'm that interested in main-boarding in the dark in a control deck.
All this said, I hope I'm wrong because I love cards that fit in multiple archetypes. But I don't see myself taking this in a control deck if there is anything else in the pack for me.
This is easily the third best mtg video ever. Right behind ignite memories and kyoto ultimatum.
I just can't keep a card in only due to nostalgia though, but I still think lightning helix is is good enough for 5 card sections.
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I see a lot of reasons to put it in a control deck.
-Make my chump blocks last a turn longer vs aggro. Great in control.
-Protects finisher. Great in control.
-Protects necessary stabilizing permanents. Great in control.
-Can break symmetrical destruction effects. Great in any deck.
-Can do a lot to kill a planeswalker. Great in a non-aggressive deck that can't reliably swing into a walker the turn cycle it lands, i.e. control.
-Can close out a game faster than an opponent expects. Great in any deck.
-Can double combat damage triggers. Fringe, but still reasonable in most cube decks.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
Certainly. Boros Charm is stellar in aggro, but very good in control as well. It's the other way around for Lightning Helix. Helixing their aggro bear is probably the best thing you can do to stabilize.
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
Nof, thanks for sharing that. Very thoughtful piece about something quite common. It reminds me of the recent post I made addressing someone's use of "gaytecrash." Still not sure if that was a typo, but I don't let that kind of thing stand. Gay (or black or female or transgender or whatever) =/= bad.
Oh, and PS, men can and do get raped. Obviously, it's not as common as women getting raped but it happens. Don't assume because you are in an all-male group that no one there has been raped (or abused).
On topic edit: I think this card is great. I think it's the #3 or #4 Boros card. It's the best or 2nd best card for cube we've gotten in this set so far (Experiment One being the competition).
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Word.
And I would probably call it the best since it fits into more cubes. Experiment is probably the best in cubes that support green aggro, but it's not even a card for me, so I could hardly see calling it the best cube option from Gatecrash. All of this prefaced with a ". . . so far." Seeing this card come up so late gives me renewed hope for the rest of the set.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
Spot on.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
This. I can't believe people are calling three mana at instant speed to creatures or players narrow. Aggro doesn't always play against control, it's a very, very good card there too. At worst, it's Searing Spear, at best, it's outrageously good. It goes in the typical boros deck.
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
I don't know, personally this might be the best mtg video ever [NSFW language].
On topic: I do believe this is the 4th best RW card:
I can imagine in smaller sections trying it out in place of Lightning Helix but I can imagine many times drawing it and wishing it was Helix instead. Boros Charm can lead to more blowouts/interesting stories, but Helix is the more dependable, versatile card which is more important in my opinion.
My Tribal Cube
EDH Decks
GOmnath, Locus of ManaG
WUBSen TripletsWUB
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
1. Ajani Vengeant
2. Figure of Destiny
3. Boros Charm
4. Slayer's Stronghold
5. Lightning Helix
I haven't been running Lightning Helix for a while now. It's a solid spell, but same to how many people just debate Absorb is just another counter and Terminate another kill spell, Lightning Helix is "just" a burn spell. I no longer run any of the 3.
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I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
If you only have 3 slots for Boros cards, this card makes it in and Helix doesn't. If you have room for 5-6 cards in each section, sure. Both is certainly the way to go.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Boogie was always a good time at those events.
And I actually think the Craig Jones vid is better than the Ultimatum or Ignite ones. There's a chance I am biased, however, as I was sitting in the same room watching it on the big screen at the PT and was swept up in the excitement of it all. It was simply amazing.
(consequently, that was the last time I q'd for a PT...maybe I should play qualifiers once in a while, since the last one I played was Innistrad sealed, heh)
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
I've been called out on this by three people now, and clearly it was a badly worded post.
What I meant is that in a fair number of matchups, where the lifegain is less relevant, it's a hard to cast Searing Spear. It's still a really strong card even in that WCS, and I would as you say play it in every Boros deck. My gut feeling though is it doesn't do enough to pull me into those colours, and could just easily be a red burn spell some of the time. With my 3 gold slots, I want something more exciting and impactful.
So yeah, sorry. I'm not saying it's a bad card. I'd run it every R/W deck. It's just not something I'd personally dedicate a slot to any more - I won't splash for it, and it's not significantly better than a monocolour alternative in every matchup. 'Narrow' was the wrong word to use.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
What if it cost RR? I wouldn't cube with it then, especially in a cube small enough to cut helix (like a 360, for example).
In any non-monored deck, RR is an obstacle. If you don't have RW in your boros deck, you're losing anyway.
I can totally see cutting Lightning Helix, in fact that's what's going to happen on a large scale in a couple weeks. Boros Charm is more interesting. Makes me sad, though, and happy at the same time that I'm running a C/Ube where I can keep it around for much longer.
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
I know Berserk is my pet card, so it might not be in many cubes. But it's absolutely killer with this new Char,.
My cube
My cube on Cube tutor
I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!