I really like some of the more recent changes I've made to make green more focussed on ramp, and black more focussed on graveyard strategies, and want to try the same with white.
In this post I'll try to make a list of interesting cards. I'll make two lists Anthems and Token makers - each with a primary section with cards that many cubes run already, and a list with tier 2 cards, that I define as cards I wouldn't run if I didn't support this cube sub theme.
In addition, Rubin's comment about looking to green for additional support rings true. There are a number of cards in that color that help to strengthen the archetype (plus look to Eldrazi Monument in artifacts for a nice way to close games out of nowhere).
I support tokens fairly heavily, and agree that green is a great complementary color. (Wake, Mayor of Avabruck, Garruk's tokens, Awakening Zone...) I am also testing Eldrazi Monument and Glare of Subdual, but neither has been drafted yet.
I'm afraid I don't have much to contribute, but I just want to say that it sounds like a really good idea. Please report back on what these changes do for your cube.
I like Rubin's idea of roping in green in the token theme though. It already has good cards for the archetype and there are surely some cards you don't run that are about as good as some you do, but with some added synergy with tokens (for example, Awakening Zone). We've seen a number of pretty good token decks in our cube lately and they were GW every time.
I'm afraid I don't have much to contribute, but I just want to say that it sounds like a really good idea. Please report back on what these changes do for your cube.
I like Rubin's idea of roping in green in the token theme though. It already has good cards for the archetype and there are surely some cards you don't run that are about as good as some you do, but with some added synergy with tokens (for example, Awakening Zone). We've seen a number of pretty good token decks in our cube lately and they were GW every time.
Yes, I'd like to hear as well. I want to implement GW tokens in my cube too.
I forgot to mention Captain of the Watch, which has been very good for my players. Also, the tiers don't really accurately reflect card power for the most part atm...Kjeldoran Outpost in particular is NOT a tier 1 card anymore. If that card is up for consideration then Sacred Mesa and Mobilization should be up there as well then.
I forgot to mention Captain of the Watch, which has been very good for my players. Also, the tiers don't really accurately reflect card power for the most part atm...Kjeldoran Outpost in particular is NOT a tier 1 card anymore. If that card is up for consideration then Sacred Mesa and Mobilization should be up there as well then.
I think Outpost is way better than the two enchantments.
I've been pushing tokens for a while. The more anthem effects you have the better. Tokens works best when paired with green or black. There is some really great feedback in this thread already, so you have a good starting point.
I've been pushing tokens for a while. The more anthem effects you have the better. Tokens works best when paired with green or black. There is some really great feedback in this thread already, so you have a good starting point.
Yeah. I'm trying to make the thread to a primer though, so other people also can push this theme easily if they want to.
I think Outpost is way better than the two enchantments.
I think Kjeldoran Outpost is way better than a lot of those cards on that list.
But Sacred Mesa is a strong card, which I'd definitely consider for a larger cube anyways. And Mobilization is fair if you support a strong Token and/or Soldier theme.
I know this thread has gone quiet for a bit, but I wanted to create a similar one myself so I thought I'd just post here.
One thing that I was wondering was how you see a tokens deck playing out. Can it work without early 1- and 2- drop token generators? Most of the generators that I'd want to include start at 3CMC. I'm not particularly keen on including cards that are only good in a tokens strategy, such as Intangible Virtue.
I've been considering something like W/b tokens so far, though I'm definitely going to look into Green support in the next few days.
I was thinking that a W/b deck could play out similar to an aggro deck of the same colours in the early turns, playing nontoken 1- and 2-drop creatures and/or Thoughtseize-style disruption or even just cheap removal for your opponent's early threats. Then develop the board from turn 3 with token generators.
I was thinking something like this:
:symw::symb: Tokens
Token Generators - Card advantage. The heart of the deck. Helps to build an overwhelming board position to swarm the opponent for the win.
:symb::0mana:: Grave Titan; Bitterblossom; Lingering Souls; Sorin, Lord of Innistrad; Myr Battlesphere; Precursor Golem; (Skeletal Vampire); (Bloodline Keeper)
Team Pump - Makes the tokens and other early drops more effective. The benefit is greater the more creatures you have, so tokens are the ideal pairing.
:symw:: Accorder Paladin; Mirror Entity; Soltari Champion; Hero of Bladehold; Mikaeus, the Lunarch; Glorious Anthem; Ajani Goldmane
:symw::symg:: Gavony Township
Weenies - In general, efficient 1- and 2- cost beaters will benefit from the team pump which is aimed at the tokens and give the deck more speed out of the gate.
:symw:: Savannah Lions; Isamaru, Hound of Konda; Soltari Monk; etc.
:symb:: Diregraf Ghoul; Gravecrawler; Vampire Interloper; etc.
Removal - Always good for keeping your opponent's stuff under control and to clear the way for the weenie hordes.
:symw:: Swords to Plowshares; Path to Exile; Journey to Nowhere; etc.
:symb:: Doom Blade, Go for the Throat; etc.
Equipment - With plenty of bodies around to carry equipment, one or two powerful pieces can help to put the deck over the top.
Swords; etc.
Sample Deck (note that this is not an actual draft deck but an attempt at putting together something from my cube, with a couple of cards that aren't currently in my cube).
I used a small token subtheme in red for a little while. The deck just didn't come together enough to keep red as a supporting component, but you might look in to the following:
I've been pushing tokens for a while. The more anthem effects you have the better. Tokens works best when paired with green or black. There is some really great feedback in this thread already, so you have a good starting point.
Black has some good token producers, but are there any support cards?
In green, any mass pump can be good with tokens, e.g. Overrun or Garruk v1.0.
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Black has some good token producers, but are there any support cards?
In green, any mass pump can be good with tokens, e.g. Overrun or Garruk v1.0.
It depends what you mean by support. The OP really only looked at producers and anthems, which only leaves anthems as the support. This is obviously not an area in which Black is strong. But I go back to my previous question: how do you see the deck playing out? If you just want some disruption, weenies, or removal to buy time to get to the midgame when you start filling the table with tokens, then Black is a fine support colour. White has anthems, so Black can help give you what you need to fill the holes.
In terms of Green, I'm starting to think that it might be the ideal companion. I still haven't done my analysis yet, but just thinking about it, you could open on a mana elf on T1 to accelerate to your 3CC token producers on turn 2. Much like the weenies in the White/Black example, the mana dorks benefit from the anthem effects just as much as the tokens (assuming you're not using narrow anthems like Intangible Virtue or Honor of the Pure) and help you advance to the mid-game quickly. Do you/would you run Overrun in your cube if you weren't supporting a token strategy? (I don't currently run Overrun but do run Garruk 1.0).
On that note, I'd be keen to see a 2- or even 3-tier evaluation of the token/support cards. Which cards are good enough to be cubable on their own? Which cards are only good in a token strategy and useless elsewhere? Which cards aren't normally found in cubes but are reasonable additions that can be used in other strategies?
EDIT: Added my own initial evaluation of the cards in the OP.
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Opposition yet. Yesterday I played turn 3 opposition, turn 4 deranged hermit. winning was pretty trivial after that.
Opposition is a good one. Not all cubes run it though. I don't currently but it's in my "tempo package" which I'm looking at bringing in. It would certainly work well in a token deck.
What Green cards that support this strategy are cubable? From this thread and some other minor investigation, I have the following:
1. Those without any brackets are already in my own cube which doesn't currently support an explicit tokens strategy.
2. Those in parentheses () are not currently in my cube.
3. Those in square braces [] represent a card type I don't support (e.g. double-faced cards, morph, etc.)
So, the two main questions are: a) What's missing from the list?; and b) which of these are cubable?
My test for cubable is really whether it's powerful enough to play in that environment, is it forcing out another card that is vastly more powerful (and therefore a ridiculous swap), and most importantly, can the card be played in more than one strategy. Overall, does the card make the cube better?
A few comments:
1. A lot of the white cards make Soldier tokens. I use soldier tribal pumps because such a high percentage of the white creatures are soldiers.
2. Green makes a variety of tokens, and its strength I believe lies less in anthems than in sudden Overrun effects. They can kill an opponent seemingly out of nowhere, especially if the two are combined.
3. Green token-makers can be a very powerful ramp target While the big guy goes to town, the tokens can serve double duty as chump blockers and as a swarm that finishes the game from a board stall. Also, Regal Force is a very fun card to resolve.
4. I don't really run planeswalkers, but the Elspeths are fantastic support for these archetypes, as are the Lorwyn and Innistrad Garruks. New Sorin too, but I have less support in my cube for the BW tokens archetype.
5. If you really want to grief with BW or BG tokens, consider Grave Pact and/or Attrition. They can also serve as excellent fodder for Braids, Cabal Minion, Recurring Nightmare, Fleshbag Marauder, Barter in Blood, and Smokestack.
6. I agree with some of the above posters that I think Tokens is best conceived as a WG archetype.
I really like some of the more recent changes I've made to make green more focussed on ramp, and black more focussed on graveyard strategies, and want to try the same with white.
In this post I'll try to make a list of interesting cards. I'll make two lists Anthems and Token makers - each with a primary section with cards that many cubes run already, and a list with tier 2 cards, that I define as cards I wouldn't run if I didn't support this cube sub theme.
WWWWW
Anthem effects
Intangible Virtue
Accorder Paladin
Honor of the Pure
Mirror Entity
Pianna, Nomad Captain
Soltari Champion
Glorious Anthem
Celestial Crusader
Kongming, “Sleeping Dragon”
Ajani Goldmane
Marshal's Anthem
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Mikaeus, the Lunarch
Token makers
Raise the Alarm
Blade Splicer
Lingering Souls
Spectral Procession
Thraben Doomsayer
Midnight Haunting
Sacred Mesa
Mobilization
Emeria Angel
Hero of Bladehold
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Battle Screech
Elspeth Tirel
Cloudgoat Ranger
Geist-Honored Monk
Increasing Devotion
Conqueror's Pledge
Captain of the Watch
Decree of Justice
Martial Coup
White Sun's Zenith
Kjeldoran Outpost
Are there other good cards you would suggest?
here's a link to the token thread over on the commander forum.
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*Thraben Doomsayer
*Raise the Alarm
*Battle Screech
*Lingering Souls
*Midnight Haunting
*Conqueror's Pledge
*White Sun's Zenith
*Mentor of the Meek
*Soltari Champion
*Accorder Paladin
In addition, Rubin's comment about looking to green for additional support rings true. There are a number of cards in that color that help to strengthen the archetype (plus look to Eldrazi Monument in artifacts for a nice way to close games out of nowhere).
(list not current)
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(list is always current)
Edit: oh, don't forget Gavony Township in GW!
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I like Rubin's idea of roping in green in the token theme though. It already has good cards for the archetype and there are surely some cards you don't run that are about as good as some you do, but with some added synergy with tokens (for example, Awakening Zone). We've seen a number of pretty good token decks in our cube lately and they were GW every time.
Yes, I'd like to hear as well. I want to implement GW tokens in my cube too.
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I think Outpost is way better than the two enchantments.
But I'll remove the tiers, and add the new cards.
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I'll add support colors later when I have some time. Thx for the suggestions.
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Black can also support tokens with Bitterblossom, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, Lingering Souls & Grave Titan.
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Yeah. I'm trying to make the thread to a primer though, so other people also can push this theme easily if they want to.
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I think Kjeldoran Outpost is way better than a lot of those cards on that list.
But Sacred Mesa is a strong card, which I'd definitely consider for a larger cube anyways. And Mobilization is fair if you support a strong Token and/or Soldier theme.
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And I think green would be great too.
Has anyone ever tried Tolsimir Wolfblood ?
One thing that I was wondering was how you see a tokens deck playing out. Can it work without early 1- and 2- drop token generators? Most of the generators that I'd want to include start at 3CMC. I'm not particularly keen on including cards that are only good in a tokens strategy, such as Intangible Virtue.
I've been considering something like W/b tokens so far, though I'm definitely going to look into Green support in the next few days.
I was thinking that a W/b deck could play out similar to an aggro deck of the same colours in the early turns, playing nontoken 1- and 2-drop creatures and/or Thoughtseize-style disruption or even just cheap removal for your opponent's early threats. Then develop the board from turn 3 with token generators.
I was thinking something like this:
:symw::symb: Tokens
Token Generators - Card advantage. The heart of the deck. Helps to build an overwhelming board position to swarm the opponent for the win.
:symw:: Blade Splicer; Hero of Bladehold; Cloudgoat Ranger; Elspeth, Knight-Errant; Elspeth Tirel; Spectral Procession; (Sacred Mesa); (Kjeldoran Outpost); (Decree of Justice); (Martial Coup); (Geist-Honored Monk); (Conqueror's Pledge)
:symb::0mana:: Grave Titan; Bitterblossom; Lingering Souls; Sorin, Lord of Innistrad; Myr Battlesphere; Precursor Golem; (Skeletal Vampire); (Bloodline Keeper)
Team Pump - Makes the tokens and other early drops more effective. The benefit is greater the more creatures you have, so tokens are the ideal pairing.
:symw:: Accorder Paladin; Mirror Entity; Soltari Champion; Hero of Bladehold; Mikaeus, the Lunarch; Glorious Anthem; Ajani Goldmane
:symw::symg:: Gavony Township
Weenies - In general, efficient 1- and 2- cost beaters will benefit from the team pump which is aimed at the tokens and give the deck more speed out of the gate.
:symw:: Savannah Lions; Isamaru, Hound of Konda; Soltari Monk; etc.
:symb:: Diregraf Ghoul; Gravecrawler; Vampire Interloper; etc.
Removal - Always good for keeping your opponent's stuff under control and to clear the way for the weenie hordes.
:symw:: Swords to Plowshares; Path to Exile; Journey to Nowhere; etc.
:symb:: Doom Blade, Go for the Throat; etc.
Equipment - With plenty of bodies around to carry equipment, one or two powerful pieces can help to put the deck over the top.
Swords; etc.
Sample Deck (note that this is not an actual draft deck but an attempt at putting together something from my cube, with a couple of cards that aren't currently in my cube).
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1 Vampire Interloper
1 Bitterblossom
1 Blade Splicer
1 Spectral Procession
1 Lingering Souls
1 (Sacred Mesa)
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Cloudgoat Ranger
1 Elspeth Tirel
1 Glorious Anthem
1 Mirror Entity
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
1 Path to Exile
1 Doom Blade
1 Nameless Inversion
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Body and Mind
5 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
1 Marsh Flats
1 (Kjeldoran Outpost)
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Also, if you want to have black play any sort of role in a token strategy, Zealous Persecution is where it's at!
Black has some good token producers, but are there any support cards?
In green, any mass pump can be good with tokens, e.g. Overrun or Garruk v1.0.
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It depends what you mean by support. The OP really only looked at producers and anthems, which only leaves anthems as the support. This is obviously not an area in which Black is strong. But I go back to my previous question: how do you see the deck playing out? If you just want some disruption, weenies, or removal to buy time to get to the midgame when you start filling the table with tokens, then Black is a fine support colour. White has anthems, so Black can help give you what you need to fill the holes.
In terms of Green, I'm starting to think that it might be the ideal companion. I still haven't done my analysis yet, but just thinking about it, you could open on a mana elf on T1 to accelerate to your 3CC token producers on turn 2. Much like the weenies in the White/Black example, the mana dorks benefit from the anthem effects just as much as the tokens (assuming you're not using narrow anthems like Intangible Virtue or Honor of the Pure) and help you advance to the mid-game quickly. Do you/would you run Overrun in your cube if you weren't supporting a token strategy? (I don't currently run Overrun but do run Garruk 1.0).
On that note, I'd be keen to see a 2- or even 3-tier evaluation of the token/support cards. Which cards are good enough to be cubable on their own? Which cards are only good in a token strategy and useless elsewhere? Which cards aren't normally found in cubes but are reasonable additions that can be used in other strategies?
EDIT: Added my own initial evaluation of the cards in the OP.
Token Makers
Cubable On Their Own
Only Good in a Token Strategy
Reasonable Inclusions that Could Be Used in Other Strategies
Anthem Effects
Cubable On Their Own
Only Good in a Token Strategy
Reasonable Inclusions that Could Be Used in Other Strategies
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What Green cards that support this strategy are cubable? From this thread and some other minor investigation, I have the following:
Token Generators
:symg:: (Deranged Hermit); Call of the Herd; (Jade Mage); (Bestial Menace); (Awakening Zone); [Mayor of Avabruck]
:symg::symw:: (Tolsimir Wolfblood); (Rhys the Redeemed)
Anthem Effects
:symg:: Garruk Wildspeaker; (Gaea's Anthem); (Overrun);
:symg::symw:: Gavony Township; (Mirari's Wake); (Tolsimir Wolfblood)
NB:
1. Those without any brackets are already in my own cube which doesn't currently support an explicit tokens strategy.
2. Those in parentheses () are not currently in my cube.
3. Those in square braces [] represent a card type I don't support (e.g. double-faced cards, morph, etc.)
So, the two main questions are: a) What's missing from the list?; and b) which of these are cubable?
My test for cubable is really whether it's powerful enough to play in that environment, is it forcing out another card that is vastly more powerful (and therefore a ridiculous swap), and most importantly, can the card be played in more than one strategy. Overall, does the card make the cube better?
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Spectral Procession
Midnight Haunting
Blade Splicer
Master Splicer
Knight-Captain of Eos
Stormfront Riders
Darien, King of Kjeldor
Nomad's Assembly
Intangible Virtue
Mobilization
Celestial Crusader
Honor of the Pure
Mirror Entity
Accorder Paladin
Martial Coup
Nest Invader
Kozilek's Predator
Growth Spasm
Awakening Zone
Thelonite Hermit
Jade Mage
Imperious Perfect
Avenger of Zendikar
Verdant Force
Mycoloth
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
Nemata, Grove Guardian
Overwhelming Stampede
Tromp the Domains
Craterhoof Behemoth
Regal Force
Goblin Trenches
Rise of the Hobgoblins
Goblin Wardriver
Goblin Bombardment
Selesnya Evangel
Selesnya Guildmage
Rhys the Redeemed
Gavony Township
Lingering Souls
Zealous Persecution
Mortarpod
Pentavus
A few comments:
1. A lot of the white cards make Soldier tokens. I use soldier tribal pumps because such a high percentage of the white creatures are soldiers.
2. Green makes a variety of tokens, and its strength I believe lies less in anthems than in sudden Overrun effects. They can kill an opponent seemingly out of nowhere, especially if the two are combined.
3. Green token-makers can be a very powerful ramp target While the big guy goes to town, the tokens can serve double duty as chump blockers and as a swarm that finishes the game from a board stall. Also, Regal Force is a very fun card to resolve.
4. I don't really run planeswalkers, but the Elspeths are fantastic support for these archetypes, as are the Lorwyn and Innistrad Garruks. New Sorin too, but I have less support in my cube for the BW tokens archetype.
5. If you really want to grief with BW or BG tokens, consider Grave Pact and/or Attrition. They can also serve as excellent fodder for Braids, Cabal Minion, Recurring Nightmare, Fleshbag Marauder, Barter in Blood, and Smokestack.
6. I agree with some of the above posters that I think Tokens is best conceived as a WG archetype.