You know you're reading a classy forum when even the trolls are polite.
I like to include cards like Karmic Guide to allow the possibility of interesting and fun combos, even if they don't turn up that often. That's why I still keep stuff like Palinchron and Mirari's Wake hanging around. I adopt a similar view to Hardb0dy, though I have a 360 card power cube with a 90 card flex section for archetypes and pet cards.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
You know you're reading a classy forum when even the trolls are polite.
Quoted for truth.
On topic: I think having Karmic Guide at our disposal is too much of an asset to ignore it. It enables so much shenanigans, and gives white such a unique effect, that I'm happy to run it.
I am also happy to run it alongside Baneslayer Angel; it may be more "boring" to some, and I totally understand that, but there's something to be said about getting to play, and bash face with, this kind of powerful creatures. And in this case you're bashing face with angels! How cool is that? Sometimes you have to make your inner Timmy happy!
Tomorrow may be the day when I cut Karmic Guide from my cube, but hopefully, tomorrow never comes
I can see the synergi with Reveilark, (double activations with) Recurring Nightmare and fetching fatties with Survival. Are there any big ones I'm missing?
You've got the main ones, but:
Sneak Attack a fatty, sac it EOT then Sneak Attack Karmic Guide to bring the fatty back more permanently.
Necromancy Karmic Guide as an instant, bringing back the creature you really want more permanently.
Maybe calling these combos is a stretch, but having the type 'Creature' printed on Karmic Guide throws up a load of cute interactions that I and my fellow cubers really enjoy.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Karmic Guide is my second favorite white 5 drop after Reveillark. I doubt it will ever come out of my cube.
I don't run walkers though, so I have plenty of room for the above and other 5 drops.
I was originally excluding Baneslayer from my list due to a desire to keep the creature power level at pre-M10 levels (my cube borders on classic cube more than a modern one). But I've recently added her as an experiment to see how much the new creature power creep will change the meta.
Aww, this thread makes me sad. I was finally gonna test it since it will drop in price and have a pretty new border. All the karmic hate is making me think it would be a waste. Although i really think most of the echo cards are overcosted, so I would probably come to the same conclusion.
I love Karmic Guide and it's fine in my 500 card cube. When I cut down to 450, it will probably get the axe. You only have room for so many white 5-drops, and it's not as good as Reveillark and Cloudgoat. That said, it's completely savage with Recurring Nightmare and Sneak Attack.
Aww, this thread makes me sad. I was finally gonna test it since it will drop in price and have a pretty new border. All the karmic hate is making me think it would be a waste. Although i really think most of the echo cards are overcosted, so I would probably come to the same conclusion.
But isn't it that way for majority of every keyword? For the latest example, look at Bestow. There's also Cipher.
Karmic Guide is essential to a powerful cube. It's by far the best 5cc white card, with reveillark on a steady second. Yes it needs some dedication, but balance needs that too. Fatties come and go in all kinds of shapes, but this effect on a creature is too unique to ignore. Interactive 'techy' cards are always (well, ok..not always) more powerful than 'raw' power, because synergy wins you games.
It's really not. Balance can be used based on gamestate. Karmic Guide is fringe unless there's other card involve. And if I combo the almost same set of card to Lark, lark is a lot more broken card than Karmic Guide.
Karmic Guide is essential to a powerful cube. It's by far the best 5cc white card, with reveillark on a steady second. Yes it needs some dedication, but balance needs that too. Fatties come and go in all kinds of shapes, but this effect on a creature is too unique to ignore. Interactive 'techy' cards are always (well, ok..not always) more powerful than 'raw' power, because synergy wins you games.
You and I are big on synergy. I agree with your sentiment completely.
Any fool can bash face with a baneslayer, but karmic guide has a higher ceiling and it rewards good deck building. I really like to push those types of cards.
I'm big on synergy too. But there comes a point where cost inefficiency outweighs the synergy advantage. BSA also rewards good deckbuilding. You get rewarded for putting powerful cards in your deck.
I like Karmic Guide, but it's easily the most cuttable 5-drop, which white has quite a few other good options for.
Count me in for Karmic Guide. Recently added her back in and was reminded of how awesome a permanent reanimate on a creature is. It is an amazing ability and putting it on a creature makes it ridiculously easy to abuse (especially in a smaller cube where it's easier to put cards together). I had taken Karmic Guide out of our cube before Scars so I never got a chance to see it wreck with Mimic Vat. That all changed last weekend.
Different strokes for different folks, Gubbe85. My list is the result of drafting cubes like yours for years and fixing all the problems I found.
Never ignore intrinsic powerlevel. It adds consistency to the decks that you need to win cube drafts. Cute interactions are fun and awesome (and I think my cube list offers more than enough of this) but don't forget to include cards that are good. Some people may consider them boring, but our playgroup enjoys playing with cards that are consistently powerful across multiple decktypes and board states. Enjoyable Magic and intrinsically powerful cards aren't mutually exclusive concepts.
Also, remember Winston drafting, Grid drafting, FoF drafting, 3-4 man draft events and everything else. Cube has more to offer than just doing full table drafts time and again. Ignoring versatility and intrinsic powerlevel kills the more limiting game types you can enjoy with the cube.
To me, cube at its best is about the balance between synergy and power. I am not interested in drafting a cube where all of the cards are straightforward vanilla power cards. At the same time, I have little interest in a straight tribal or archetype cube, where deck styles and strategies are basically chosen for you by narrow but powerful cards like Goblin Lackey or Turnabout, etc.
The part of cube which intrigues and excites me most, both in cube construction and deckbuilding is the balance of raw power and synergy. Do you cut black cards to include a pox theme? Or should it be a subtheme? You are drafting a Survival deck and someone passes you a Mox and Squee. What do you do?
To me, cube at its best is about the balance between synergy and power. I am not interested in drafting a cube where all of the cards are straightforward vanilla power cards. At the same time, I have little interest in a straight tribal or archetype cube, where deck styles and strategies are basically chosen for you by narrow but powerful cards like Goblin Lackey or Turnabout, etc.
The part of cube which intrigues and excites me most, both in cube construction and deckbuilding is the balance of raw power and synergy. Do you cut black cards to include a pox theme? Or should it be a subtheme? You are drafting a Survival deck and someone passes you a Mox and Squee. What do you do?
It's better than Archangel of Thune at that slot but doesn't beat out Lark, BSA, or Cloudgoat.
I agree with that. But I am trying to push a new archetype and I am looking for synergistic cards not just cards based on raw power. Karmic Guide has been mediocre for me lately.
Do you think it'll play better for your tokens deck than another token engine would like Scion of Vitu-Ghazi or Geist-Honored Monk? I think (but I'm not sure) that my average token/anthem deck would rather have more bodies.
BSA is a role player for some of our themed decks too. It's a big flying win condition for our Moat decks, and it's the perfect creature to resolve in front of a Wildfire/Burning of Xinye/Rolling Earthquake or whatever. It does a lot of work for us in decks where the Guide would be lacking. I addition to being a great creature in any random deck too.
And as I've said before, I don't find my list to be lacking in synergy simply because it contains a higher percentage of cards that focus on versatility and intrinsic power-level. We create just as many decks that focus around synergy as we do decks that are built to be well-oiled theater machines. Some of the decisions are based around the fact that the list is geared to conform to any type of gameplay setting we decide to play, and not just full-table drafting. But regardless of how many players we have or what limited format we play, we all enjoy the balance between synergistic archetype play and solid, flexible, powerful cards that fit in lots of decks.
Moat's not really a theme, but a flying Moat deck does come together, and BSA is a great card for that deck.
Just because there are some cards I'd rather have for Wildfire doesn't mean BSA isn't good in that deck. I want those cards AND BSA in my Wildfire deck.
You say BSA doesn't "DO anything", but I haven't found that to be the case. It does lots of stuff. Mainly, winning you the game.
If the "do nothing" cards in my cube are cards like Baneslayer Angel, I'm fine with that. I like that a lot more than the "do something" cards that are only good in one deck.
As an aside, I like Academy Rector, but I've been waiting to get some more true bomb enchantment cards in the cube to add him back in, because I want to be able to cheat for mana cost advantage rather than just toolbox utility on a 4-mana investment. Perhaps some of the new gods in the latter sets of this block will fill that role for me!
If we have a chance to migrate back to the topic on hand instead of getting into a cube composition pissing contest with you in every thread, that'd be great.
Do you think it'll play better for your tokens deck than another token engine would like Scion of Vitu-Ghazi or Geist-Honored Monk? I think (but I'm not sure) that my average token/anthem deck would rather have more bodies.
You might be right. Ill probably try out all of those and see which seems best, or drop them all.
As I said earlier, every card is measure by it's context. Every discussion leads automatically to the core of things.
Cards should be measured by more than just their context. Interactions, synergy, intrinsic value, versatility ...all of those things should be considered when evaluating cards. Not just their combo potential. Saying "Card A interacts with card Y and Z, so therefore it's better for the cube than card B, which only has its intrinsic powerlevel going for it" is a blanket statement you simply cannot apply to properly evaluating every card for the cube.
You can discuss cards without bashing someone's cube list. Turning every discussion in every thread about how you hate my cube doesn't contribute to the topic at hand.
Quote from Torggo »
You might be right. Ill probably try out all of those and see which seems best, or drop them all.
I'd test them all out and see which one you like most.
Right. But you can provide examples from your list (or your philosophy of cube design) that make it the case, rather than attacking other peoples lists and saying they're doing it wrong.
I like to include cards like Karmic Guide to allow the possibility of interesting and fun combos, even if they don't turn up that often. That's why I still keep stuff like Palinchron and Mirari's Wake hanging around. I adopt a similar view to Hardb0dy, though I have a 360 card power cube with a 90 card flex section for archetypes and pet cards.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Quoted for truth.
On topic: I think having Karmic Guide at our disposal is too much of an asset to ignore it. It enables so much shenanigans, and gives white such a unique effect, that I'm happy to run it.
I am also happy to run it alongside Baneslayer Angel; it may be more "boring" to some, and I totally understand that, but there's something to be said about getting to play, and bash face with, this kind of powerful creatures. And in this case you're bashing face with angels! How cool is that? Sometimes you have to make your inner Timmy happy!
Tomorrow may be the day when I cut Karmic Guide from my cube, but hopefully, tomorrow never comes
Former DCI L2 Judge
My old Cube podcast on ManaDeprived, with Goodking and artbcnco: http://manadeprived.com/podcasts/mtgin3d/
You can find me on Twitter as well.
I also wrote a whole entry on her and Lark combo, if you care to check out my archetypes blog.
Besides the combo's, she is also pretty decent in b/w control.
Deckbox tradelist/for sale
Draft my cube on cubetutor!
Check out my blog on Cube Archetypes!
You've got the main ones, but:
Sneak Attack a fatty, sac it EOT then Sneak Attack Karmic Guide to bring the fatty back more permanently.
Necromancy Karmic Guide as an instant, bringing back the creature you really want more permanently.
Reuse with Crystal Shard.
Maybe calling these combos is a stretch, but having the type 'Creature' printed on Karmic Guide throws up a load of cute interactions that I and my fellow cubers really enjoy.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I don't run walkers though, so I have plenty of room for the above and other 5 drops.
I was originally excluding Baneslayer from my list due to a desire to keep the creature power level at pre-M10 levels (my cube borders on classic cube more than a modern one). But I've recently added her as an experiment to see how much the new creature power creep will change the meta.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
I'm cutting it this update. Glad I never got a Urza's Legacy foil.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
But isn't it that way for majority of every keyword? For the latest example, look at Bestow. There's also Cipher.
It's really not. Balance can be used based on gamestate. Karmic Guide is fringe unless there's other card involve. And if I combo the almost same set of card to Lark, lark is a lot more broken card than Karmic Guide.
My cube
My cube on Cube tutor
I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
You and I are big on synergy. I agree with your sentiment completely.
Any fool can bash face with a baneslayer, but karmic guide has a higher ceiling and it rewards good deck building. I really like to push those types of cards.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
I like Karmic Guide, but it's easily the most cuttable 5-drop, which white has quite a few other good options for.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
Never ignore intrinsic powerlevel. It adds consistency to the decks that you need to win cube drafts. Cute interactions are fun and awesome (and I think my cube list offers more than enough of this) but don't forget to include cards that are good. Some people may consider them boring, but our playgroup enjoys playing with cards that are consistently powerful across multiple decktypes and board states. Enjoyable Magic and intrinsically powerful cards aren't mutually exclusive concepts.
Also, remember Winston drafting, Grid drafting, FoF drafting, 3-4 man draft events and everything else. Cube has more to offer than just doing full table drafts time and again. Ignoring versatility and intrinsic powerlevel kills the more limiting game types you can enjoy with the cube.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
The part of cube which intrigues and excites me most, both in cube construction and deckbuilding is the balance of raw power and synergy. Do you cut black cards to include a pox theme? Or should it be a subtheme? You are drafting a Survival deck and someone passes you a Mox and Squee. What do you do?
Couldn't have said it better myself.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I agree with that. But I am trying to push a new archetype and I am looking for synergistic cards not just cards based on raw power. Karmic Guide has been mediocre for me lately.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
And as I've said before, I don't find my list to be lacking in synergy simply because it contains a higher percentage of cards that focus on versatility and intrinsic power-level. We create just as many decks that focus around synergy as we do decks that are built to be well-oiled theater machines. Some of the decisions are based around the fact that the list is geared to conform to any type of gameplay setting we decide to play, and not just full-table drafting. But regardless of how many players we have or what limited format we play, we all enjoy the balance between synergistic archetype play and solid, flexible, powerful cards that fit in lots of decks.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Just because there are some cards I'd rather have for Wildfire doesn't mean BSA isn't good in that deck. I want those cards AND BSA in my Wildfire deck.
You say BSA doesn't "DO anything", but I haven't found that to be the case. It does lots of stuff. Mainly, winning you the game.
If the "do nothing" cards in my cube are cards like Baneslayer Angel, I'm fine with that. I like that a lot more than the "do something" cards that are only good in one deck.
As an aside, I like Academy Rector, but I've been waiting to get some more true bomb enchantment cards in the cube to add him back in, because I want to be able to cheat for mana cost advantage rather than just toolbox utility on a 4-mana investment. Perhaps some of the new gods in the latter sets of this block will fill that role for me!
If we have a chance to migrate back to the topic on hand instead of getting into a cube composition pissing contest with you in every thread, that'd be great.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
You might be right. Ill probably try out all of those and see which seems best, or drop them all.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
Cards should be measured by more than just their context. Interactions, synergy, intrinsic value, versatility ...all of those things should be considered when evaluating cards. Not just their combo potential. Saying "Card A interacts with card Y and Z, so therefore it's better for the cube than card B, which only has its intrinsic powerlevel going for it" is a blanket statement you simply cannot apply to properly evaluating every card for the cube.
You can discuss cards without bashing someone's cube list. Turning every discussion in every thread about how you hate my cube doesn't contribute to the topic at hand.
I'd test them all out and see which one you like most.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Right. But you can provide examples from your list (or your philosophy of cube design) that make it the case, rather than attacking other peoples lists and saying they're doing it wrong.
You won't get any argument from me on this point.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!