After playing with Karmic Guide again I'd cut something else from a different slot to keep her in. Her ceiling is so high in decks that can make proper use of her ability... And there's a crapload of stuff she interacts well with.
After playing with Karmic Guide again I'd cut something else from a different slot to keep her in. Her ceiling is so high in decks that can make proper use of her ability... And there's a crapload of stuff she interacts well with.
This.
Anyone saying this card is cuttable over most other white 5 drops hasn't properly harnessed this cards power. IMO anyway.
Even if I was pushing tokens I certainly wouldn't run Cloud goat over her. Not that the goat isn't awesome (because it is), but karmic guide is unique and very abuseable.
If you are pushing tokens I can't see Karmic Guide being better than Cloudgoat. They are both abusable in many of the same ways be it blink, mimic vat, or whatever. A few decks might get a stronger effect out of the KG, but Cloudgoat is going to support more archetypes. Namely tokens, opposition, pox, and probably more.
@Gubbe85: It's not a war. It's a friendly discussion. Don't attack other cube managers and declare they're wrong. Tell us why you think you're right. We have a good community here ...don't ruin it with a crap attitude.
Anyone saying this card is cuttable over most other white 5 drops hasn't properly harnessed this cards power. IMO anyway.
Even if I was pushing tokens I certainly wouldn't run Cloud goat over her. Not that the goat isn't awesome (because it is), but karmic guide is unique and very abuseable.
I have properly harnessed the card's power. I have cubed it for years. Despite having it pull off insane plays from time to time, even when it's in the right deck, the average performance of the card has shown to be less than that of its direct competition. I like Karmic Guide a lot (hell, I've been cubing with it for ages) but I still rank it the #4 white 5cc creature, and rank it that way confidantly.
The whole "if you don't like the card as much as me you must be playing it wrong" attitude is such a waste. Everybody could throw the same statement back at you regarding the card they're defending, and it means nothing.
I can see both sides of the argument here. I think I'd agree with wtwlf that Karmic Guide is behind Baneslayer, Reveillark and Cloudgoat Ranger in terms of it's simple ability to win the game. But it is a very fun card: in draft, in deck building and in play. There are a number of cards that act as benchmarks of cube size for me. Some cards are so lacklustre that, if I'm forced to include them to balance archetypes I would rather shrink my cube. With Karmic Guide, I'd rather enlarge my cube and keep her in than cut her for a "better" card.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
If you read wtwlf123 from previous years, he's actually a solid supporter of Karmic Guide. If my memories don't serve me wrong, I remember seeing him saying not to cut Karmic Guide various times when other people point to it as a cut in their own list or his list. He KNOWS how good Karmic Guide is. It's just that once enough better card than Karmic Guide is print, it is going to get cut.
I know how good Karmic Guide too, since it was in my cube. It's a good card. But a lot of the times in cube, good cards compete with great card. Look at G/W section.
I can see both sides of the argument here. I think I'd agree with wtwlf that Karmic Guide is behind Baneslayer, Reveillark and Cloudgoat Ranger in terms of it's simple ability to win the game. But it is a very fun card: in draft, in deck building and in play. There are a number of cards that act as benchmarks of cube size for me. Some cards are so lacklustre that, if I'm forced to include them to balance archetypes I would rather shrink my cube. With Karmic Guide, I'd rather enlarge my cube and keep her in than cut her for a "better" card.
I'm with you. I'd much rather increase the size of my cube to include Karmic Guide than to play without her. She doesn't hurt the quality of the draft and I believe being in a smaller environment increases her value. The synergy she brings to certain cards/decks is just insane (I'm also pro planeswalker Venser) and I will now always want this ability in my cube (that is to say, I'll only ever swap Karmic Guide out if a better creature with reanimate gets printed).
Not only do I find Karmic Guide fun, I also find her powerful.
Having said that I think BSA is hella fun to play in all kinds of decks. Besides, everycube should have a big angel to beat face with in white (and red should have a big dragon). BSA is powerful and fun!
Now I claim that the more powerful the cube, the better the karmic guide, the worse the BSA, and thus claim that karmic guide, opposed by this threads consensus, is by far the best 5cc white creature. The powerful 'context' in which karmic guide can be of use is more versatile, more interactive, more synergetic and thus more powerful than BSA ever could.
Though BSA isn't interactive (in that she's on automatic once she's out for the most part) I do think she is versatile and she has synergy with all kinds of decks (BW control, Naya Lightsaber, Captain America, ...) and more decks than Karmic Guide. I do agree however that Karmic Guide's ceiling is higher, with a little finesse. But BSA's floor is higher (she actually doesn't really have a floor in my mind lol) making her good in all kinds of decks.
I'd run them both in any sized cube. And yeah I'd run 4 guys in the 5cc slot. Something else would have to go!
I'm sorry if you misunderstand my attitude. I maybe come over harsh, it's just the way I discuss, but I never mean hostility. I only care about content, the form is irrelevant to me. I use terms as 'war' pure in a metaphoric manner.
I have this problem a lot (not only on this forum) since I project my own inability to get offended onto other people's long toes.
If you cut cards that don't do well on average, but can be insane at times, and you replace them with more 'consistent' cards that can't be insane, then you'll end up with an average cube imo. Instead, why not shape your cube in such a way where karmic guide will perform better on average, and thus be more powerful than a 'consistent' card could ever be...
It's not about you not liking it as much as me.
I'm not going to change the way the cube is sculpted so that Karmic Guide can be the best white 5-drop. That's not what we want.
I understand that idea, but it just didn't work out that way for us. Even when it was in the right places, doing the right things, the impact was largely less than that of a resolved Baneslayer (unless I was reanimating a dead Baneslayer with my Karmic Guide :)). Despite being more fun and more interesting, it was simply less powerful. That pulls more weight with my playgroup than the interactivity does. For reasons we've discussed again and again here (and in other threads).
Again, I like Karmic Guide. It has a really high BCS, but a really low WCS. Overall the average performance of the card was less than that of the competition it stacks up against. Clearly that's not the case for you, and I'm glad. It's a fun card.
It'll have a seat in the on deck binder for a while until I miss it, and it can come back in the future. That's the best part about the cube; none of the cuts are permanent.
The whole "if you don't like the card as much as me you must be playing it wrong" attitude is such a waste. Everybody could throw the same statement back at you regarding the card they're defending, and it means nothing.
But you saying otherwise is somehow different? I did say IMO after all. I fail to see how i was being elitist about it.
You don't strike me as being very open minded. You believe what you believe and everyone who disagrees clearly isn't as good as you are at magic.
Honestly it's because wtwlf has been cubing forever. His opinions are stuctured in years of experience. Thats not to say he hasn't been swayed, but honestly given the time and commitment wtwlf has given to the cube community, he's earned the right to have weight in his opinion. Same goes for a lot of cube members here like eidolon and Usman for example. You can complain about him being to entitled his opinion or stubborn, which may or may not be true, but at the very least he has deserved to be considered with a little bit of respect.
If you cut cards that don't do well on average, but can be insane at times, and you replace them with more 'consistent' cards that can't be insane, then you'll end up with an average cube imo. Instead, why not shape your cube in such a way where karmic guide will perform better on average, and thus be more powerful than a 'consistent' card could ever be...
It's not about you not liking it as much as me.
I'm with you high power-less consistent cards. Hell, I run Mindslaver in my cube. But this is not an attitude you can impose on everyone. For one, everybody's cube size and draft pods size will be different. At 540 we can have room for tons of build around me type cards while having enough consistent cards to flesh out decks. At smaller cube sizes the amount of room for these types of cards diminishes and you can only run so many of them - thus the differing opinion on the more fringe ones that people can't find room for. If a small cube is all inconsistent high power cards, you're gonna run into inconsistent cube drafts. This is especially true considering not everyone drafts in full pods of 8 all the time. If I'm a player that very often does 4 player drafts I'm not going to value putting cards in my cube that depend on seeing other certain cards to be good.
Yeah, that's precisely the reason why one should attack none other than wtf's opinions and cube. It's because I respect his views that I must not respect his views. Because his opinions have weight, one should approach them without any. One should attack everything he says! Cube can't be institutionalized! The system must be attacked, it must be constantly changed to prevent a deadlock where we can't escape from. We have to try radical new things, and fail better each time. Viva la revolution!
Still a pity that the storm (and turboland) - thread was shut down. It was the best thing that's happened to this forum in a long time.
People disagree with each other on this forum all the time. It's nothing new, and disagreeing with someone doesn't make you a free-thinking revolutionary. Cube is a great environment to try new stuff, but you can't frame a new set of ideas in the context that everyone else is suddenly wrong for not doing it. I actually think you have some very interesting points, but a lot of the arguments and analogies you made in that thread were incoherent, rude, circular, or just bizarre. I think I could argue your position better than you could, and I don't even agree with you. We're a stubborn bunch, and yet we're still all wrong about stuff all the time. That includes wtwlf (who you seem to have an irrational vendetta with), myself, and everyone else. But we still treat each other with respect, and sometimes that means agreeing to disagree. The forum still works. Actually, scratch that, it's the reason why the forum works so well.
Tangentially, I actually don't agree with the reasons for shutting down that thread either. I didn't see much 'vitriolic aggression'. It's better not to derail other threads and keep that discussion in one place.
As for Karmic Guide - I think it summarises your cubing philosophy well. You want to build around interactions and synergies as much as possible, sometimes to the exclusion of a higher baseline power. You want a cube where complex strategies, combos and hybrid decktypes are as commonplace as possible. You eschew a balanced representation of the aggro theatre, arguing that you obtain a balance between theaters by having a high number of powerful engines or synergies that can be assembled, so that the traditional rock-paper-scissors balance is lessened. I think Karmic Guide is a very acceptable face of this approach. It's more interesting than a BSA, and yet it is still powerful and has numerous synergies. I get this, even though it's not the approach I personally favour.
But you saying otherwise is somehow different? I did say IMO after all. I fail to see how i was being elitist about it.
You don't strike me as being very open minded. You believe what you believe and everyone who disagrees clearly isn't as good as you are at magic.
That's how a lot of your replies come off.
edit: I had a big wall of text here, but I've decided against it because it sounded more vitriolic than I intended.
If I've come off that way to you, I apologize. I'm simply trying to promote friendly, constructive discussion as opposed to "you're playing it wrong if you don't agree with me" or "if you like card A more than card B, you don't know **** about cube" ...two responses I've cringed through in this thread alone.
I'm am very interested in both your opinions and your experiences with the card, and when presented constructively, that info can be better taken into account for proper card evaluation.
My stance on the cube is that there's no right or wrong way to cube. All you can do is create the best environment you can for your specific playgroup. That will ultimately lead to differences of opinion and cubes having a good number of different cards from one list to the next. Which is a good thing. Cube would be a very stagnant format if everybody's list was the same. All we can do is best represent the opinions we have on individual cards/cube construction based on the parameters we set for our own lists. We take the discussions at hand, figure out how much they apply to our way of cubing and determine if that information will translate to our own lists. Sometimes it does, and we can make changes based on constructive and valuable information.
People disagree with each other on this forum all the time. It's nothing new, and disagreeing with someone doesn't make you a free-thinking revolutionary. Cube is a great environment to try new stuff, but you can't frame a new set of ideas in the context that everyone else is suddenly wrong for not doing it. I actually think you have some very interesting points, but a lot of the arguments and analogies you made in that thread were incoherent, rude, circular, or just bizarre. I think I could argue your position better than you could, and I don't even agree with you. We're a stubborn bunch, and yet we're still all wrong about stuff all the time. That includes wtwlf (who you seem to have an irrational vendetta with), myself, and everyone else. But we still treat each other with respect, and sometimes that means agreeing to disagree. The forum still works. Actually, scratch that, it's the reason why the forum works so well.
People disagree with each other on this forum all the time. It's nothing new, and disagreeing with someone doesn't make you a free-thinking revolutionary. Cube is a great environment to try new stuff, but you can't frame a new set of ideas in the context that everyone else is suddenly wrong for not doing it. I actually think you have some very interesting points, but a lot of the arguments and analogies you made in that thread were incoherent, rude, circular, or just bizarre. I think I could argue your position better than you could, and I don't even agree with you. We're a stubborn bunch, and yet we're still all wrong about stuff all the time. That includes wtwlf (who you seem to have an irrational vendetta with), myself, and everyone else. But we still treat each other with respect, and sometimes that means agreeing to disagree. The forum still works. Actually, scratch that, it's the reason why the forum works so well.
People seem to have vendettas with wtwlf once every couple months. I imagine its because he is the most recognized forum member and many people have based their cubes off of his. This guy knows his **** about cube, i started at his cube and made it better. He HAS to know how to make his better so it can be awesomer. Its not a vendetta its confronting an idol, exaggeration I know, but still thats why people tend to randomly single out him once every couple months, in my opinion. (I'm pretty sure it happens like once every couple months, if it doesn't ignore me and I am dumb)
group a likes eating lemons, group b knows oranges are tastier, group a wont accept group b's oranges. Group B has to convince them to eat the oranges, which eventually turns into a shouting match is why it gets so tense sometimes. Once you've shouted and been shouted at a bit you learn to engage in discourse, meaning both sides actually trying to find the truth instead of convince the other side. or you rage quit
Sometimes I do notice that certain 'power' MTGS user's opinions carry a heck of a lot more weight and other users quickly agree/believe/accept their ideas as scripture without much thought of their own. When wtwlf presents an idea it is almost always accepted by most of the community, and I'm tempted to say that if another user were to present some of his ideas (ie. Ingot Chewer, Pyrewild Shaman) it would be labelled as fringe or wouldn't even be considered at all. Is it not true that lots of users add and remove cards from their own cube when certain users' do? It is understandable for the most part as many users have modelled their cubes to be like wtwlf's (or eidolon's or whoever's), and also other users who don't have as much time to cube rely on others' experience to keep their own cubes updated. I have done the latter for months at a time when real life takes over my free time. It does create sort of a hive mind mentality though and it is apparent to many users. I have directed quite a number of magic players (who have been running their own cubes since cubes became a thing here in Toronto many years ago) to these forums in the past and the feedback I get from them is that (1) "everyone has the same cube" and (2) that a lot of groupthink happens. I personally get offended whenever I hear (1) because I firmly believe that even just a few cards difference makes all the difference when drafting and putting decks together. However, I do see that (2) is true to a certain extent. And there are certainly pitfalls to groupthink.
That is not to say that wtwlf isn't right on the money with a lot of his ideas. Because he is. But over the years I've also learned that some things that work for his group (or whoever's group) may not necessarily work for my group (Pyroclasm is an example of a card that is valued by our group a lot more than it is valued in these forums because it just works so well in our games. Blood Scrivevner is an example of the opposite)... and that it is very important to understand the why when he or other users make changes to their lists.
As for Karmic Guide - I think it summarises your cubing philosophy well. You want to build around interactions and synergies as much as possible, sometimes to the exclusion of a higher baseline power. You want a cube where complex strategies, combos and hybrid decktypes are as commonplace as possible. You eschew a balanced representation of the aggro theatre, arguing that you obtain a balance between theaters by having a high number of powerful engines or synergies that can be assembled, so that the traditional rock-paper-scissors balance is lessened. I think Karmic Guide is a very acceptable face of this approach. It's more interesting than a BSA, and yet it is still powerful and has numerous synergies. I get this, even though it's not the approach I personally favour.
I believe Gubbe is saying that the interactions and synergies between cards actually makes the card in question more powerful. A card should be evaluated in the context of its environment. And to this I do agree. I'm really horrible at arguing a point and I can't even articulate right now how I do agree with him (Gubbe)... but I just know there is truth in what he's saying. Cards that have been labelled as 'fringe' or 'not good enough for 360' wins games at our table (ie. Planeswalker Venser, Fires, etc...) due to the insane synergy it has with other cards in the cube. I'm not saying that I think BSA is worse than Karmic though because gun to my head I'd keep BSA over Karmic, but I'm saying I'm (finally) starting to understand some of his points.
I just want to say thanks to hardb0dy (always read that as Hardy Boy... oops). We do have a bit of hive mind here, and as a younger cube manager that has been extremely helpful. Now that my cube is starting to grow up just a little bit, I have been enjoying adding things that we think are fun (or silly) with a bit less focus on power, since we know that the hive shell here is so powerfully balanced. We do get caught up a bit, but I do love this community.
Sometimes I am looking for a solid voice outside the MTGS echo box that I lovingly call home. Do you guys have any advice for where to go? I have been listening to the Magic Box and such.
Finally, on the thread topic, I will likely test Karmic Guide in the COMM13 update, as I just noticed it is in the deck. Cool.
[color=deeppink]Karmic is potentially the best white 5-drop in a cube's pool. However, the card thrives with conditions that allow it to muscle past cards with better 'default value' such as BSA and token makers.
To answer the OP, Karmic is just insane. I'd rank it as 360 material and if you had a best-of-the-best for each [color]+[cost], I would give it the nod as my favorite white 5-drop to include if I only had one choice.
I agree with the larger sentiment about playstyle and cube philosophy. There are too many variables to straight up compare Karmic to the other 5-drops. Karmic definitely has the highest ceiling. Depending upon what you draft, it can go from "strong" to "downright silly" in power level. I never get that feeling with other white 5 drops. At best, BSA is "really strong". Never opens up additional lines of play. I was on the fence about Archangel of Thune knocking out Karmic but if anything, I'd add her as a third slot.[/color]
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Rockpaperscissors is a priori non-existent. It's a statistical conclusion that is irrelevant and has no meaning. Again, like racism. Let go of your respect towards this pre-existing paradigm that is quite narrow and only serves a few illusions.
If you're going to continue this: Can you pretty please write in plain English? This is a classic example of obfuscation by pseudo-scientific language. Generally as used by someone attempting to mimic what they think high level scientific prose should look like. It is often used to look intelligent or well-informed - which can be successful when done correctly, even with a poor argument, if it's not semantically void of meaning. As someone who reads and writes actual scientific prose for a living, I can confirm that nothing I quoted makes sense. Also... racism? What?
Goes a lot deeper than just 'I like it' and 'I don't', and then provide arguments up to a point and then just cowardly agree to disagree. Doesn't help anybody.
Actually, that's 10x as valuable as saying half of the things that have been said in this thread, and agree to disagree is often the only solution left when you're speaking to someone that is impossible to discuss things with.
What doesn't help people is saying the same thing back in forth in huge walls of text indefinitely. It's both a waste of time and leads to nothing of any substantial value. Every discussion I've had with you so far has gone this route, because it's been impossible to have a friendly debate with enlightening information. You feel as you do for your reasons, and I feel the way I do for my reasons, and you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. No reason to waste any more time discussing ...well, anything we've been discussing so far. It's not so much a discussion as bashing our heads against a wall. It's not fun, productive or informative. Frankly, it's been a huge waste of time on every front. Not because you have an opinion that's different from mine (tons of regular posters have opinions that differ from mine, but we manage to have friendly constructive discussions that are enlightening to both ourselves and the community), but because your attitude from your first posts here have been unbearable and unhelpful.
Agreeing to disagree isn't cowardly. It's often the only civil solution left after you've addressed your points as clearly as possible and the other person simply refuses to see things as you do. In fact, it's unreasonable to expect debates to end any other way when you have opinions that differ as greatly as ours do.
We're just discussing core business here. The why of why a card is good. Goes a lot deeper than just 'I like it' and 'I don't', and then provide arguments up to a point and then just cowardly agree to disagree. Doesn't help anybody. We need to discuss arguments of arguments of arguments of arguments of arguments! And yes, it seems like derailing, but it really is not. It's exactly the opposite.
Comparing things to racism and political correctness is really close to derailing. It's inflammatory language, and you know that. There's no need for such an over-the-top comparison, unless you get off on pissing people off (which I've more or less decided you do).
There is always room for improvement. You get my respect with arguments, I don't care how much you swear, call me names, whatever, while doing it. Respect is this 'tolerant' form of keeping each other at a safe distance. (Like leftist racism) Screw that. I am after your souls. Especially the one of wtf because his cube is too institutionalized, and it's power is too little. Imho.
Are you here to persuade people with your arguments, or are you here to just hear yourself talk?
I notice it bunch of time, but you really to stop double posting. There is an edit button. Double post when it's your cube update or something.
Baneslayer Angel is better in every single white deck except blink deck where Karmic Guide ability can still be abuse. And even in blink deck, Baneslayer is still a very good card that can be run.
Look at it this way, let's say BSA perform 8 on average. Karmic Guide probably perform like 2, maybe 3, in the deck that can't abuse it. It jump to 8, or 9, in deck that can abuse it. Is that really worth it?
The thing is that, I don't think Karmic Guide is close to BSA in deck that can't abuse it. Not at all. If say, Karmic Guide can perform at 7 and sometimes go to a 10, I'll be more keen on her.
Considering the echo and the blink cost you'll to have for Karmic Guide, every turn that the value went up for Karmic Guide, BSA give the player 10 life swing. It also doesn't have echo.
This.
Anyone saying this card is cuttable over most other white 5 drops hasn't properly harnessed this cards power. IMO anyway.
Even if I was pushing tokens I certainly wouldn't run Cloud goat over her. Not that the goat isn't awesome (because it is), but karmic guide is unique and very abuseable.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
I have properly harnessed the card's power. I have cubed it for years. Despite having it pull off insane plays from time to time, even when it's in the right deck, the average performance of the card has shown to be less than that of its direct competition. I like Karmic Guide a lot (hell, I've been cubing with it for ages) but I still rank it the #4 white 5cc creature, and rank it that way confidantly.
The whole "if you don't like the card as much as me you must be playing it wrong" attitude is such a waste. Everybody could throw the same statement back at you regarding the card they're defending, and it means nothing.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
If you read wtwlf123 from previous years, he's actually a solid supporter of Karmic Guide. If my memories don't serve me wrong, I remember seeing him saying not to cut Karmic Guide various times when other people point to it as a cut in their own list or his list. He KNOWS how good Karmic Guide is. It's just that once enough better card than Karmic Guide is print, it is going to get cut.
I know how good Karmic Guide too, since it was in my cube. It's a good card. But a lot of the times in cube, good cards compete with great card. Look at G/W section.
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I'm with you. I'd much rather increase the size of my cube to include Karmic Guide than to play without her. She doesn't hurt the quality of the draft and I believe being in a smaller environment increases her value. The synergy she brings to certain cards/decks is just insane (I'm also pro planeswalker Venser) and I will now always want this ability in my cube (that is to say, I'll only ever swap Karmic Guide out if a better creature with reanimate gets printed).
Not only do I find Karmic Guide fun, I also find her powerful.
Having said that I think BSA is hella fun to play in all kinds of decks. Besides, every cube should have a big angel to beat face with in white (and red should have a big dragon). BSA is powerful and fun!
Though BSA isn't interactive (in that she's on automatic once she's out for the most part) I do think she is versatile and she has synergy with all kinds of decks (BW control, Naya Lightsaber, Captain America, ...) and more decks than Karmic Guide. I do agree however that Karmic Guide's ceiling is higher, with a little finesse. But BSA's floor is higher (she actually doesn't really have a floor in my mind lol) making her good in all kinds of decks.
I'd run them both in any sized cube. And yeah I'd run 4 guys in the 5cc slot. Something else would have to go!
Thanks for clearing this up.
I'm not going to change the way the cube is sculpted so that Karmic Guide can be the best white 5-drop. That's not what we want.
I understand that idea, but it just didn't work out that way for us. Even when it was in the right places, doing the right things, the impact was largely less than that of a resolved Baneslayer (unless I was reanimating a dead Baneslayer with my Karmic Guide :)). Despite being more fun and more interesting, it was simply less powerful. That pulls more weight with my playgroup than the interactivity does. For reasons we've discussed again and again here (and in other threads).
Again, I like Karmic Guide. It has a really high BCS, but a really low WCS. Overall the average performance of the card was less than that of the competition it stacks up against. Clearly that's not the case for you, and I'm glad. It's a fun card.
It'll have a seat in the on deck binder for a while until I miss it, and it can come back in the future. That's the best part about the cube; none of the cuts are permanent.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
But you saying otherwise is somehow different? I did say IMO after all. I fail to see how i was being elitist about it.
You don't strike me as being very open minded. You believe what you believe and everyone who disagrees clearly isn't as good as you are at magic.
That's how a lot of your replies come off.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
My 450 Cube
I'm with you high power-less consistent cards. Hell, I run Mindslaver in my cube. But this is not an attitude you can impose on everyone. For one, everybody's cube size and draft pods size will be different. At 540 we can have room for tons of build around me type cards while having enough consistent cards to flesh out decks. At smaller cube sizes the amount of room for these types of cards diminishes and you can only run so many of them - thus the differing opinion on the more fringe ones that people can't find room for. If a small cube is all inconsistent high power cards, you're gonna run into inconsistent cube drafts. This is especially true considering not everyone drafts in full pods of 8 all the time. If I'm a player that very often does 4 player drafts I'm not going to value putting cards in my cube that depend on seeing other certain cards to be good.
People disagree with each other on this forum all the time. It's nothing new, and disagreeing with someone doesn't make you a free-thinking revolutionary. Cube is a great environment to try new stuff, but you can't frame a new set of ideas in the context that everyone else is suddenly wrong for not doing it. I actually think you have some very interesting points, but a lot of the arguments and analogies you made in that thread were incoherent, rude, circular, or just bizarre. I think I could argue your position better than you could, and I don't even agree with you. We're a stubborn bunch, and yet we're still all wrong about stuff all the time. That includes wtwlf (who you seem to have an irrational vendetta with), myself, and everyone else. But we still treat each other with respect, and sometimes that means agreeing to disagree. The forum still works. Actually, scratch that, it's the reason why the forum works so well.
Tangentially, I actually don't agree with the reasons for shutting down that thread either. I didn't see much 'vitriolic aggression'. It's better not to derail other threads and keep that discussion in one place.
As for Karmic Guide - I think it summarises your cubing philosophy well. You want to build around interactions and synergies as much as possible, sometimes to the exclusion of a higher baseline power. You want a cube where complex strategies, combos and hybrid decktypes are as commonplace as possible. You eschew a balanced representation of the aggro theatre, arguing that you obtain a balance between theaters by having a high number of powerful engines or synergies that can be assembled, so that the traditional rock-paper-scissors balance is lessened. I think Karmic Guide is a very acceptable face of this approach. It's more interesting than a BSA, and yet it is still powerful and has numerous synergies. I get this, even though it's not the approach I personally favour.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
edit: I had a big wall of text here, but I've decided against it because it sounded more vitriolic than I intended.
If I've come off that way to you, I apologize. I'm simply trying to promote friendly, constructive discussion as opposed to "you're playing it wrong if you don't agree with me" or "if you like card A more than card B, you don't know **** about cube" ...two responses I've cringed through in this thread alone.
I'm am very interested in both your opinions and your experiences with the card, and when presented constructively, that info can be better taken into account for proper card evaluation.
My stance on the cube is that there's no right or wrong way to cube. All you can do is create the best environment you can for your specific playgroup. That will ultimately lead to differences of opinion and cubes having a good number of different cards from one list to the next. Which is a good thing. Cube would be a very stagnant format if everybody's list was the same. All we can do is best represent the opinions we have on individual cards/cube construction based on the parameters we set for our own lists. We take the discussions at hand, figure out how much they apply to our way of cubing and determine if that information will translate to our own lists. Sometimes it does, and we can make changes based on constructive and valuable information.
Cheers, and happy cubing.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
A thousand times this.
People seem to have vendettas with wtwlf once every couple months. I imagine its because he is the most recognized forum member and many people have based their cubes off of his. This guy knows his **** about cube, i started at his cube and made it better. He HAS to know how to make his better so it can be awesomer. Its not a vendetta its confronting an idol, exaggeration I know, but still thats why people tend to randomly single out him once every couple months, in my opinion. (I'm pretty sure it happens like once every couple months, if it doesn't ignore me and I am dumb)
group a likes eating lemons, group b knows oranges are tastier, group a wont accept group b's oranges. Group B has to convince them to eat the oranges, which eventually turns into a shouting match is why it gets so tense sometimes. Once you've shouted and been shouted at a bit you learn to engage in discourse, meaning both sides actually trying to find the truth instead of convince the other side. or you rage quit
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
That is not to say that wtwlf isn't right on the money with a lot of his ideas. Because he is. But over the years I've also learned that some things that work for his group (or whoever's group) may not necessarily work for my group (Pyroclasm is an example of a card that is valued by our group a lot more than it is valued in these forums because it just works so well in our games. Blood Scrivevner is an example of the opposite)... and that it is very important to understand the why when he or other users make changes to their lists.
I believe Gubbe is saying that the interactions and synergies between cards actually makes the card in question more powerful. A card should be evaluated in the context of its environment. And to this I do agree. I'm really horrible at arguing a point and I can't even articulate right now how I do agree with him (Gubbe)... but I just know there is truth in what he's saying. Cards that have been labelled as 'fringe' or 'not good enough for 360' wins games at our table (ie. Planeswalker Venser, Fires, etc...) due to the insane synergy it has with other cards in the cube. I'm not saying that I think BSA is worse than Karmic though because gun to my head I'd keep BSA over Karmic, but I'm saying I'm (finally) starting to understand some of his points.
Sometimes I am looking for a solid voice outside the MTGS echo box that I lovingly call home. Do you guys have any advice for where to go? I have been listening to the Magic Box and such.
Finally, on the thread topic, I will likely test Karmic Guide in the COMM13 update, as I just noticed it is in the deck. Cool.
To answer the OP, Karmic is just insane. I'd rank it as 360 material and if you had a best-of-the-best for each [color]+[cost], I would give it the nod as my favorite white 5-drop to include if I only had one choice.
I agree with the larger sentiment about playstyle and cube philosophy. There are too many variables to straight up compare Karmic to the other 5-drops. Karmic definitely has the highest ceiling. Depending upon what you draft, it can go from "strong" to "downright silly" in power level. I never get that feeling with other white 5 drops. At best, BSA is "really strong". Never opens up additional lines of play. I was on the fence about Archangel of Thune knocking out Karmic but if anything, I'd add her as a third slot.[/color]
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Go to the http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=240943 thread if you want to discuss politics, etc.
-bonda
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If you're going to continue this: Can you pretty please write in plain English? This is a classic example of obfuscation by pseudo-scientific language. Generally as used by someone attempting to mimic what they think high level scientific prose should look like. It is often used to look intelligent or well-informed - which can be successful when done correctly, even with a poor argument, if it's not semantically void of meaning. As someone who reads and writes actual scientific prose for a living, I can confirm that nothing I quoted makes sense. Also... racism? What?
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Actually, that's 10x as valuable as saying half of the things that have been said in this thread, and agree to disagree is often the only solution left when you're speaking to someone that is impossible to discuss things with.
What doesn't help people is saying the same thing back in forth in huge walls of text indefinitely. It's both a waste of time and leads to nothing of any substantial value. Every discussion I've had with you so far has gone this route, because it's been impossible to have a friendly debate with enlightening information. You feel as you do for your reasons, and I feel the way I do for my reasons, and you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. No reason to waste any more time discussing ...well, anything we've been discussing so far. It's not so much a discussion as bashing our heads against a wall. It's not fun, productive or informative. Frankly, it's been a huge waste of time on every front. Not because you have an opinion that's different from mine (tons of regular posters have opinions that differ from mine, but we manage to have friendly constructive discussions that are enlightening to both ourselves and the community), but because your attitude from your first posts here have been unbearable and unhelpful.
Agreeing to disagree isn't cowardly. It's often the only civil solution left after you've addressed your points as clearly as possible and the other person simply refuses to see things as you do. In fact, it's unreasonable to expect debates to end any other way when you have opinions that differ as greatly as ours do.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Comparing things to racism and political correctness is really close to derailing. It's inflammatory language, and you know that. There's no need for such an over-the-top comparison, unless you get off on pissing people off (which I've more or less decided you do).
Cheers,
rant
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CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
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You can also view it here at Cubetutor <---- please draft my cube!!
and you can also see it at DeckStats
Are you here to persuade people with your arguments, or are you here to just hear yourself talk?
The thread didn't close because people's egos were being hurt.
Baneslayer Angel is better in every single white deck except blink deck where Karmic Guide ability can still be abuse. And even in blink deck, Baneslayer is still a very good card that can be run.
Look at it this way, let's say BSA perform 8 on average. Karmic Guide probably perform like 2, maybe 3, in the deck that can't abuse it. It jump to 8, or 9, in deck that can abuse it. Is that really worth it?
The thing is that, I don't think Karmic Guide is close to BSA in deck that can't abuse it. Not at all. If say, Karmic Guide can perform at 7 and sometimes go to a 10, I'll be more keen on her.
Considering the echo and the blink cost you'll to have for Karmic Guide, every turn that the value went up for Karmic Guide, BSA give the player 10 life swing. It also doesn't have echo.
If you're using language in a way that's offensive, some people will not be please with the way you talk. That's kind of obvious.
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I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.