There are some slightly more fringe 1 mana removal like oust, forked bolt, disfigure that I think should should see more play if aggro is good. I feel like a lot of times people lose to aggro when playing control is due to the fact that they are not playing optimally or not drafting enough early defense.
Maybe Misstep can be one of the cards brought in to maximize your early defense?! I like it a hell of a lot more than Oust, Disfigure and Forked Bolt. It's in a color that needs the defense more, and while it can't answer bigger creature threats, it can neutralize a whole suite of noncreature cards that none of those other options can touch. Not to mention that it's free and can be played in any deck.
Also, are you suggesting that control should beat aggro? It's an unfavorable matchup, and it always has been (and it should be). Control crushes midrange. And midrange crushes aggro. So if the control decks in your cube beat aggro more often than not, why would you ever play aggro? Having control beat aggro with regularity is unhealthy for the cube. The only incentive to play aggro is for its favorable matchup against the slow decks at the table.
I feel like a lot of times people lose to aggro when playing control is due to the fact that they are not playing optimally or not drafting enough early defense.
Yes, if only there was some sort of counterspell that could act as "early defense" without being a dud in other matchups...
Most irrelevant argument ever. Why should I care what "prominent" cubers think of a card if I've gotten good results in my own cube? They haven't drafted my list. Did they even test the card? What makes a cube designer prominent, anyway?
I think actual explanations (like, my cube decks have a lot of crucial 1cc spells and misstep answers them like no other card can) is a lot more valuable than "famous guys hate this card." If you have actual testing data from these important cube dudes, that's another story. Lists for context are always important in these kinds of situations.
Agree 100%. I'm so tired of some of the groupthink that this forum encourages. One prominent person says they don't like a card, and all of a sudden everyone hates it.
Remember: Virtually every prominent cube designer on this forum is prominent for one reason: They have a lot of extra time to post on the internet, and are fairly articulate about it. We're not talking about people who have won cube design competitions, or people who have won cube tournaments. Sure, some people have been designing cubes for longer than others, but believe me, you can do something for a long time and still suck at it.
My point is: Just because somebody with more than 2000 posts says Mental Misstep is bad doesn't mean you can't enjoy having it in your cube.
Agree 100%. I'm so tired of some of the groupthink that this forum encourages. One prominent person says they don't like a card, and all of a sudden everyone hates it.
Or in this case, it's members of this forum encouraging playtesting, different cards for different cubes, statistical analysis and valuing results over theorycraft. ...And outside opinion being the "prominent cubers" and the groupthink.
I think this forum has grown by leaps and bounds. I don't believe in the hivemind concept for this forum anymore. Every single cube is different. Every single opinion is different. Members are listening more to each others' opinions and experiences more now than ever before. People aren't afraid to voice dissenting opinions. Someone can chime in with "I don't like it for reasons X" and the very next poster will say "While that's true, I like it for reasons Y and Z" more now than I can remember.
Quote from JeffDerek »
My point is: Just because somebody with more than 2000 posts says Mental Misstep is bad doesn't mean you can't enjoy having it in your cube.
Agree 100%. I'm so tired of some of the groupthink that this forum encourages. One prominent person says they don't like a card, and all of a sudden everyone hates it.
Remember: Virtually every prominent cube designer on this forum is prominent for one reason: They have a lot of extra time to post on the internet, and are fairly articulate about it. We're not talking about people who have won cube design competitions, or people who have won cube tournaments. Sure, some people have been designing cubes for longer than others, but believe me, you can do something for a long time and still suck at it.
My point is: Just because somebody with more than 2000 posts says Mental Misstep is bad doesn't mean you can't enjoy having it in your cube.
This is kind of the opposite of what's happening here. A member of this forum recommended a card universally dismissed, and instead of ignoring this dissenting opinion, a few of us tried it out. And what do you know, we had some success. Then this guy posts that it's bad because some guys at starcitygames say it's bad and sidesteps the actual discussion completely.
And it's pretty much a moot point now, because we've all moved on to having a real conversation about the card. I may disagree with chisinf but he's participating in a relevant discussion now.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
The downsides of the card are reasonably well understood by now but its value is actually fairly subtle. Without actually trying the card out, it really doesn't look all that special, until you consider the number of relevant targets and match-ups and the unique role MM can have. I'm glad that people have tried it with an open mind. However, I am absolutely positive that there are cube groups out there who just will not have success with this card. Misstep requires that cut-throat legacy-esque feel to early play, to be considered viable, which was the context of my original evaluation of the card.
Quote from wtwlf123 »
I don't believe in the hivemind concept for this forum anymore. Every single cube is different. Every single opinion is different. Members are listening more to each others' opinions and experiences more now than ever before. People aren't afraid to voice dissenting opinions. Someone can chime in with "I don't like it for reasons X" and the very next poster will say "While that's true, I like it for reasons Y and Z" more now than I can remember.
This is definitely the right atmosphere to have around here. If no-one makes no suggestions or voices difference in opinion, we stagnate.
I'm really excited to test this in my Cube in a few weeks. Since this thread popped up every time I'm playing against my main Cube buddy we'll say something like "Mental Misstep would have been really good this game." There are games where it would have been sided out but our small pool of games where we watched how much of an impact the 1-drops had indicate that it should be a card that's maindecked pretty often.
I can't believe that this card may make it in my Cube. Just goes to show that being open-minded about a card's playability can be worthwhile.
I can't believe that this card may make it in my Cube. Just goes to show that being open-minded about a card's playability can be worthwhile.
Additionally, if you think a card might be good, or have some testing data, share your thoughts or experiences. The worst case is, everyone disagrees (or has had the opposite experience) and the best case is you get some people to think about a card in a different way, and possibly test it.
It depends more on the composition of the cube and the way the players prioritize their 1cc spells. If you play a similar concentration of 1cc cards and players try to run a lot of them in their decks regardless of the archetype (like we do) the card can be just as valuable in larger cubes than in smaller ones.
It depends more on the composition of the cube and the way the players prioritize their 1cc spells. If you play a similar concentration of 1cc cards and players try to run a lot of them in their decks regardless of the archetype (like we do) the card can be just as valuable in larger cubes than in smaller ones.
The 1 drops in a 360 card powered cube are just disgusting though. All the premiums (ancestral, sol ring, thoughtseize, goblin guide, skullclamp, mana vault...) showing up so much more often, and I would guess the first few turns are also much more important in a cube like this.
I don't deny that. But depending on the cube composition and how the players value the 1-drops during deck constriction plays a bigger role. A powered 360 cube that runs a low concentration of 1cc cards, doesn't support aggro or has players that are more interested in bigger spells will get less value from Misstep than a larger cubes where all of those elements are active.
I have assumed until now that MM would get worse in a large cube but, as wtwlf points out, this may not be the case. I think the cube ethos and composition are more significant in whether MM is worth running or not. Countering that super sick T1 play is the best, but often it's just countering another 1 CMC guy or removal, and that's valuable no matter which 'tier of cubability' it occupies, if we can define such a thing.
It is. But the quantity included in a given deck can change by percentage from group to group. So even though it may have better targets, it may have less targets.
I think it depends on cube composition and playgroup preference, and not on the size of the cube.
i'm cutting this card. it was impressive initially, but it has sat in my hand so often lately that i don't feel happy drafting it. theoretically it retains value past turn zero/one but in practice it has been useless the majority of the time. i guess i was just lucky with it at first. anyone else have further results?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Still been great here. Does something unique and very important when you have a low curve, so no-one's been interested in cutting it. It loses a bunch of value later on but less so than many cards, and it still protects my finisher in hand or on the board from some removal for zero cost.
There are some matchups where it's not as useful though.
Maybe Misstep can be one of the cards brought in to maximize your early defense?! I like it a hell of a lot more than Oust, Disfigure and Forked Bolt. It's in a color that needs the defense more, and while it can't answer bigger creature threats, it can neutralize a whole suite of noncreature cards that none of those other options can touch. Not to mention that it's free and can be played in any deck.
Also, are you suggesting that control should beat aggro? It's an unfavorable matchup, and it always has been (and it should be). Control crushes midrange. And midrange crushes aggro. So if the control decks in your cube beat aggro more often than not, why would you ever play aggro? Having control beat aggro with regularity is unhealthy for the cube. The only incentive to play aggro is for its favorable matchup against the slow decks at the table.
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Yes, if only there was some sort of counterspell that could act as "early defense" without being a dud in other matchups...
(bah. forgot to hit submit, and was beat to it)
Agree 100%. I'm so tired of some of the groupthink that this forum encourages. One prominent person says they don't like a card, and all of a sudden everyone hates it.
Remember: Virtually every prominent cube designer on this forum is prominent for one reason: They have a lot of extra time to post on the internet, and are fairly articulate about it. We're not talking about people who have won cube design competitions, or people who have won cube tournaments. Sure, some people have been designing cubes for longer than others, but believe me, you can do something for a long time and still suck at it.
My point is: Just because somebody with more than 2000 posts says Mental Misstep is bad doesn't mean you can't enjoy having it in your cube.
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Or in this case, it's members of this forum encouraging playtesting, different cards for different cubes, statistical analysis and valuing results over theorycraft. ...And outside opinion being the "prominent cubers" and the groupthink.
I think this forum has grown by leaps and bounds. I don't believe in the hivemind concept for this forum anymore. Every single cube is different. Every single opinion is different. Members are listening more to each others' opinions and experiences more now than ever before. People aren't afraid to voice dissenting opinions. Someone can chime in with "I don't like it for reasons X" and the very next poster will say "While that's true, I like it for reasons Y and Z" more now than I can remember.
Nobody said or even suggested this.
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This is kind of the opposite of what's happening here. A member of this forum recommended a card universally dismissed, and instead of ignoring this dissenting opinion, a few of us tried it out. And what do you know, we had some success. Then this guy posts that it's bad because some guys at starcitygames say it's bad and sidesteps the actual discussion completely.
And it's pretty much a moot point now, because we've all moved on to having a real conversation about the card. I may disagree with chisinf but he's participating in a relevant discussion now.
This is definitely the right atmosphere to have around here. If no-one makes no suggestions or voices difference in opinion, we stagnate.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I can't believe that this card may make it in my Cube. Just goes to show that being open-minded about a card's playability can be worthwhile.
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Additionally, if you think a card might be good, or have some testing data, share your thoughts or experiences. The worst case is, everyone disagrees (or has had the opposite experience) and the best case is you get some people to think about a card in a different way, and possibly test it.
I've had Mental Misstep in my powered 360 since it came out without ever being disappointed by it.
Isn't this the best sort of cube for this card? I'm not sure that it being good in powered 360 says much about how it would be in a 720 card cube.
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The 1 drops in a 360 card powered cube are just disgusting though. All the premiums (ancestral, sol ring, thoughtseize, goblin guide, skullclamp, mana vault...) showing up so much more often, and I would guess the first few turns are also much more important in a cube like this.
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I think it depends on cube composition and playgroup preference, and not on the size of the cube.
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My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
There are some matchups where it's not as useful though.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
(Spoiler: Very narrow; possibly too narrow for most cubes but it does have some very relevant targets against a lot of archetypes)