I think that 85/540 targets is enough to run this profitably. Even if it doesn't work out, it's worth it for the feeling you get the first time you absolutely ruin someone's curve on turn zero. Which I guarantee will happen.
I think that 85/540 targets is enough to run this profitably. Even if it doesn't work out, it's worth it for the feeling you get the first time you absolutely ruin someone's curve on turn zero. Which I guarantee will happen.
I'm glad you said this. One of the reasons I decided to add it in is because it fills a gap in the counter curve where control is hurt by aggressive decks the most. The worst thing you can see as a control player on your opponent's first turn is an Isamaru or Goblin Guide. Being able to say no to those kinds of plays (especially when you're on the draw!) is such an important thing to be able to do, and no other card can do that for you.
I'm glad you said this. One of the reasons I decided to add it in is because it fills a gap in the counter curve where control is hurt by aggressive decks the most. The worst thing you can see as a control player on your opponent's first turn is an Isamaru or Goblin Guide. Being able to say no to those kinds of plays (especially when you're on the draw!) is such an important thing to be able to do, and no other card can do that for you.
IM putting this in. Aggro has overtaken control in my cube, i need to give control more love.
IM putting this in. Aggro has overtaken control in my cube, i need to give control more love.
I'm having the same problem. I just added this and Noxious Revival based on the recent SCD discussions. Hopefully Misstep will help give control some more early game options for us.
So Im gonna be updating my cube soon and this is a possible inclusion based on the good reports coming from this thread. After looking at my cube and the possible targets I see that I have roughly 55 1 drops. I then looked at my 2cc spells and I see I have well over 90. So would Spell Snare also be a consideration or is this only being considered because it can be played for free. Also just to point out my cube is Modern so the counter suite isnt as good as older cubes.
So Im gonna be updating my cube soon and this is a possible inclusion based on the good reports coming from this thread. After looking at my cube and the possible targets I see that I have roughly 55 1 drops. I then looked at my 2cc spells and I see I have well over 90. So would Spell Snare also be a consideration or is this only being considered because it can be played for free. Also just to point out my cube is Modern so the counter suite isnt as good as older cubes.
Spell Snare is a fine card. MM was originally included to target a specific collection of targets and defend against T1 plays which are often the most significant. Disrupting a T1 play is one of the best ways to ruin a curve. And it's one of two cards that lets you do that even on the draw, the other being FoW, and MM does that particular job a lot better. But I may consider Spell Snare again when it gets reprinted (I sold my foil copy to make money for my LoA!). There are an awful lot of bomb 2 drops also.
55/360 targets sounds reasonable. The fact that your cube is a modern one may slightly harm the card, as many of the really broken one drops were printed in the past. I would still expect it to pull its weight, but it won't be as good for your group as it is for ours.
We are trying out this card now, but I find it hard to decide what to do during deck construction. Do you play this and sideboard it out against certain deck or do you put it in your side board and side it in against certain decks?
If Magic theory says we should put it in our sideboard and only use it when you are sure it is not a dead card (or sub par card), then I don't think we will be running it very long. If on the other hand you just have to risk it (like we do with Disenchant most of the time), then it will probably stay.
It shores up a deck's biggest weakness. I'd mainboard it and side it out if unnneeded. But every deck plays 1cc cards, so I don't think you should have to side it out very often.
We do not make decks that have no 1 CMC cards. It's not been a problem for us at any point. It usually has as many or more targets than something like a Disenchant, depending on the matchup. So I have never sideboarded it out.
There is a difference with Disenchant though. Disenchant destroys high priority targets like Swords, Jitte, Moat, Sulferic Vortex and the like. So even if a deck has only three or four it is worth it. If Disenchant sits a while in your hand, it will probably still be very good once the threat hits the battlefield.
Mental Misstep is different. Some cards are hardly worth countering (Brainstorm, Ponder,...) and most one drops are too small to be a problem once you are in middle to late game.
That is why i am hesistant to play it maindeck. Every deck has one cc cards, but some only have a couple and not all of those are worth countering.
There is a difference with Disenchant though. Disenchant destroys high priority targets like Swords, Jitte, Moat, Sulferic Vortex and the like. So even if a deck has only three or four it is worth it. If Disenchant sits a while in your hand, it will probably still be very good once the threat hits the battlefield.
Mental Misstep is different. Some cards are hardly worth countering (Brainstorm, Ponder,...) and most one drops are too small to be a problem once you are in middle to late game.
That is why i am hesistant to play it maindeck. Every deck has one cc cards, but some only have a couple and not all of those are worth countering.
I'm not trying to compare what it does to Disenchant, because that's pointless. I maindeck it because it's so good early on (I'll get to this) but there are an awful lot of cards that are very relevant late game. Swords, Ring, Path, any of the one CC discard spells, Ritual, Tutors, lots and lots of burn spells, one CC countermagic... even the one drops can be if your opponent needs another creature for blocking, to break through, or to hold a Jitte, or if it's Goblin Welder, Shaman or Lavamancer who are late game specialists. I don't find one drops irrelevant past turn 5. Sure, I'd rather topdeck that Garruk Relentless, but it happens. They still contribute to a critical mass on board.
We include it because it does something unique and very influential on T0 or T1 in the best case scenarios, but we don't find it a 'dead' card later in the game, no more than one drop creatures, surplus ramp spells are or moxen are 'dead' cards. Way more than 2/3 of the cards in your deck (including all the lands!) are probably suboptimal on turn 5+ (depending on build) but they are important anyway. MM is worse than a lot of cards late game but it's still useful. Just like Grave Titan doesn't help being in my hand on turn 1 but is a bomb later on. Very few cards are always useful. If I get it late game it means I have to wait for an opponent to do something counterable (very often a removal or Tutor at that stage), which isn't ideal but the card is such a blowout early that this 'downside' is very acceptable. This description could apply to so many cards though. It's about balancing upside and downside.
However, if your group/cube doesn't lend itself to decks with relevant 1 CMC targets at all stages of the game, then it's probably not a very sensible card to include in the first place. I wouldn't play it in a metagame with no targets, but I wouldn't ever accomodate a metagame where it's feasible to build a deck with no targets in my own cube.
Hope that was kinda useful.
PS: Brainstorm can be well worth countering. Stopping my opponent searching for a specific answer or pulling off miracle shenanigans sounds fine to me.
I think the problem won't be not enough targets in our cube, but rather that we use a drafting format resulting in a far, far higher number of playables comparing with Goodking (Rochester vs winston). Mental Misstep will always have to battle for a slot against very high calibre cards in our environment.
Don't get me wrong, I like the card and what it has to offer, but if you're agonizing over whether to give your last deck slot to Ponder, Forbid, Time Spiral, Mystical Tutor or Mental Misstep, it gets really hard to believe in MM enough to give it the nod over those cards. This example comes from an actual drafting pool (although it wasn't my deck and it's from memory, so it could be a bit off - but it brings the point across).
There is a difference with Disenchant though. Disenchant destroys high priority targets like Swords, Jitte, Moat, Sulferic Vortex and the like. So even if a deck has only three or four it is worth it.
I don't agree with this line of thinking. Misstep counters the most important spell that resolves against your control deck. Those Disenchant targets are more powerful, but your deck has more answers to them than it does against a T1 Jackal Pup (especially when you're on the draw) because it's easier to counter and bounce more expensive targets that resolve later in the game.
If your playgroup doesn't run enough 1cc cards in the average deck to make Misstep worth playing, I could see not running it. I only recently added it in, but after realizing how important it is for control to counter those T1 plays, I've been happy to maindeck the spell regularly.
It's harder for it to make it in blue than it is for Disenchant in white, but I would maindeck them both equally as often. Maybe moreso for the Misstep because of how clutch the counter on T1 is for your survival.
For me it's: Are there enough targets (like 10% of size) that MM is good enough as mig/lategame counter.
Blue is super tight and an inclusion is only referring to overall powerlevel for me. And the powerlevel of MM depends on the number and powerlevel of the targets. MM has to compete with stuff like Daze, Spell Pierce, Force Spike, Force, Spell Snare. And I run Spell Pierce in that early counter spot with much success, so it's hard for MM to break into.
Its primary role isn't as a mid/late game counter, and evaluation shouldn't be based on that, in the same way you don't include one-drops based on late game performance. It's still useful late-game compared to many other options, and as I said befoer I've yet to lose a game with this sitting in hand wishing to was something else. Often, I can play my 4 or 5 drop and protect it from some removal with no lands up.
I prefer Mental Misstep to all those other cards bar FoW (although I may well prefer MM) and Force Spike. It does something different and very important. I would run it at any size. Regardless of draft type, because it's the only card that does what it does. I can't get a duplicate effect.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Interesting. It's a highly feared counter spell in my cube. Great in tempo. Never in the sideboard. Power depends on the percentage of one drops your cube has for sure. Anywhere over 17 should be money.
I'm not saying it's not good and that it doesn't have targets. But it can only counter 1cc cards. It's nowhere near the best counterspell variant in the cube.
I don't think it's the best counterspell in my cube by a long way, but it's in no danger at all of being cut because it does something devastating and unique. Roleplayers are valuable additions to our drafts. And no, we never leave it in the SB either.
There's a reason this card got banned. It won't come out of my cube. Possibly the best counter spell ever printed.
Mana Drain says, "No. Just no." I mean, I'm sure Mental Misstep is good, but it just cannot compare to Drain, Forbid, and quite a few others. Misstep looks promising, but I'm not sure I can find room in my cube for it. While often costing no mana and being available for any deck that wants the effect, there is a huge host of targets it can't counter.
Can someone explain to me why forbid is good? I'm not dogging the card or those who run it I've just never played with it as it seems bad to me. Seems like only good with a card draw engine or squee type cards. I'd rather play a free counter spell than a three drop counter. Just curious on how this card gets used.
Can someone explain to me why forbid is good? I'm not dogging the card or those who run it I've just never played with it as it seems bad to me. Seems like only good with a card draw engine or squee type cards. I'd rather play a free counter spell than a three drop counter. Just curious on how this card gets used.
Because you can counter multiple spells with it. Pitch some lands or any card which is less important then a counter next turn: profit. Squee or any other draw engine will make it very god, but that is not needed to make Forbid cubable.
Control decks need to control the game, Forbid lets you do that. You don't need to counter everything, but if Forbid lets you counter two important spells, it will be pretty good. Sometimes it is just a Cancel, sometimes it is three Cancels. Also I think some people are too negative about three mana counters. Sure they are crappy compared to Counterspell and that third mana makes them too fair, but a lot of three mana counterspells have made it into constructed decks and were pretty good.
This even ignores the fact that Mental Mistep only counters a fraction of the cards in the cube. It has the huge bonus of not costing mana though.
Can someone explain to me why forbid is good? I'm not dogging the card or those who run it I've just never played with it as it seems bad to me. Seems like only good with a card draw engine or squee type cards. I'd rather play a free counter spell than a three drop counter. Just curious on how this card gets used.
As soon as you have a board advantage and a Forbid in hand, it's pretty hard to lose.
It's also a discard outlet strapped to a counterspell, is way busted with graveyard interaction cards and creates a soft lock with Squee.
Not to mention that it's just multiple counterspells on its own.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I'm glad you said this. One of the reasons I decided to add it in is because it fills a gap in the counter curve where control is hurt by aggressive decks the most. The worst thing you can see as a control player on your opponent's first turn is an Isamaru or Goblin Guide. Being able to say no to those kinds of plays (especially when you're on the draw!) is such an important thing to be able to do, and no other card can do that for you.
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IM putting this in. Aggro has overtaken control in my cube, i need to give control more love.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
I'm having the same problem. I just added this and Noxious Revival based on the recent SCD discussions. Hopefully Misstep will help give control some more early game options for us.
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Spell Snare is a fine card. MM was originally included to target a specific collection of targets and defend against T1 plays which are often the most significant. Disrupting a T1 play is one of the best ways to ruin a curve. And it's one of two cards that lets you do that even on the draw, the other being FoW, and MM does that particular job a lot better. But I may consider Spell Snare again when it gets reprinted (I sold my foil copy to make money for my LoA!). There are an awful lot of bomb 2 drops also.
55/360 targets sounds reasonable. The fact that your cube is a modern one may slightly harm the card, as many of the really broken one drops were printed in the past. I would still expect it to pull its weight, but it won't be as good for your group as it is for ours.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
If Magic theory says we should put it in our sideboard and only use it when you are sure it is not a dead card (or sub par card), then I don't think we will be running it very long. If on the other hand you just have to risk it (like we do with Disenchant most of the time), then it will probably stay.
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Mental Misstep is different. Some cards are hardly worth countering (Brainstorm, Ponder,...) and most one drops are too small to be a problem once you are in middle to late game.
That is why i am hesistant to play it maindeck. Every deck has one cc cards, but some only have a couple and not all of those are worth countering.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I'm not trying to compare what it does to Disenchant, because that's pointless. I maindeck it because it's so good early on (I'll get to this) but there are an awful lot of cards that are very relevant late game. Swords, Ring, Path, any of the one CC discard spells, Ritual, Tutors, lots and lots of burn spells, one CC countermagic... even the one drops can be if your opponent needs another creature for blocking, to break through, or to hold a Jitte, or if it's Goblin Welder, Shaman or Lavamancer who are late game specialists. I don't find one drops irrelevant past turn 5. Sure, I'd rather topdeck that Garruk Relentless, but it happens. They still contribute to a critical mass on board.
We include it because it does something unique and very influential on T0 or T1 in the best case scenarios, but we don't find it a 'dead' card later in the game, no more than one drop creatures, surplus ramp spells are or moxen are 'dead' cards. Way more than 2/3 of the cards in your deck (including all the lands!) are probably suboptimal on turn 5+ (depending on build) but they are important anyway. MM is worse than a lot of cards late game but it's still useful. Just like Grave Titan doesn't help being in my hand on turn 1 but is a bomb later on. Very few cards are always useful. If I get it late game it means I have to wait for an opponent to do something counterable (very often a removal or Tutor at that stage), which isn't ideal but the card is such a blowout early that this 'downside' is very acceptable. This description could apply to so many cards though. It's about balancing upside and downside.
However, if your group/cube doesn't lend itself to decks with relevant 1 CMC targets at all stages of the game, then it's probably not a very sensible card to include in the first place. I wouldn't play it in a metagame with no targets, but I wouldn't ever accomodate a metagame where it's feasible to build a deck with no targets in my own cube.
Hope that was kinda useful.
PS: Brainstorm can be well worth countering. Stopping my opponent searching for a specific answer or pulling off miracle shenanigans sounds fine to me.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Don't get me wrong, I like the card and what it has to offer, but if you're agonizing over whether to give your last deck slot to Ponder, Forbid, Time Spiral, Mystical Tutor or Mental Misstep, it gets really hard to believe in MM enough to give it the nod over those cards. This example comes from an actual drafting pool (although it wasn't my deck and it's from memory, so it could be a bit off - but it brings the point across).
I don't agree with this line of thinking. Misstep counters the most important spell that resolves against your control deck. Those Disenchant targets are more powerful, but your deck has more answers to them than it does against a T1 Jackal Pup (especially when you're on the draw) because it's easier to counter and bounce more expensive targets that resolve later in the game.
If your playgroup doesn't run enough 1cc cards in the average deck to make Misstep worth playing, I could see not running it. I only recently added it in, but after realizing how important it is for control to counter those T1 plays, I've been happy to maindeck the spell regularly.
It's harder for it to make it in blue than it is for Disenchant in white, but I would maindeck them both equally as often. Maybe moreso for the Misstep because of how clutch the counter on T1 is for your survival.
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Its primary role isn't as a mid/late game counter, and evaluation shouldn't be based on that, in the same way you don't include one-drops based on late game performance. It's still useful late-game compared to many other options, and as I said befoer I've yet to lose a game with this sitting in hand wishing to was something else. Often, I can play my 4 or 5 drop and protect it from some removal with no lands up.
I prefer Mental Misstep to all those other cards bar FoW (although I may well prefer MM) and Force Spike. It does something different and very important. I would run it at any size. Regardless of draft type, because it's the only card that does what it does. I can't get a duplicate effect.
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Mana Drain says, "No. Just no." I mean, I'm sure Mental Misstep is good, but it just cannot compare to Drain, Forbid, and quite a few others. Misstep looks promising, but I'm not sure I can find room in my cube for it. While often costing no mana and being available for any deck that wants the effect, there is a huge host of targets it can't counter.
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Because you can counter multiple spells with it. Pitch some lands or any card which is less important then a counter next turn: profit. Squee or any other draw engine will make it very god, but that is not needed to make Forbid cubable.
Control decks need to control the game, Forbid lets you do that. You don't need to counter everything, but if Forbid lets you counter two important spells, it will be pretty good. Sometimes it is just a Cancel, sometimes it is three Cancels. Also I think some people are too negative about three mana counters. Sure they are crappy compared to Counterspell and that third mana makes them too fair, but a lot of three mana counterspells have made it into constructed decks and were pretty good.
This even ignores the fact that Mental Mistep only counters a fraction of the cards in the cube. It has the huge bonus of not costing mana though.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
As soon as you have a board advantage and a Forbid in hand, it's pretty hard to lose.
It's also a discard outlet strapped to a counterspell, is way busted with graveyard interaction cards and creates a soft lock with Squee.
Not to mention that it's just multiple counterspells on its own.
Forbid is a nasty, nasty spell.
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