Plus in a pinch, a 4/4 trample is a lot more relevant than a vanilla 3/3.
Other than being multicolor, the Rampager is better in every way. I agree the trample really seals the deal.
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I don't think that the creature is better most of the time. For half the mana, I can keep one of my creatures alive, kill one of their creatures and bolt my opponent.
Note that I don't actually disagree with this theory. My beef is still whether it will be worth it in spell mode. There are several caveats I consider if I'm holding the Ravager with mana open for both modes:
1. Is the creature I pump actually worth keeping around? Will it be better than a 4/4 trampler, or is it likely to be obsoleted by the opponent's creatures as the game goes on?
2. Is the defending creature I kill worth losing one of my own threats in hand? I.e. is it worth at least as much as a four mana multicolored creature, or a five mana monocolored creature?
3. Will the pump win the game right now?
Four extra damage for two mana is pretty sweet, no arguing there. Boros Charm is cubeable due to a combination of being unique and in a guild with room to spare. In Gruul, this is neither. But if Rampager can consistently answer the first two questions with a yes, I might be interested. Any other scenario means it isn't worth the inclusion in my cube
Plus in a pinch, a 4/4 trample is a lot more relevant than a vanilla 3/3.
Other than being multicolor, the Rampager is better in every way. I agree the trample really seals the deal.
Not trying to be overly antagonistic here, but this statement is reeeeeal off-base. Saying that Rampager "is better in every way" outside of being multicolor completely ignores Briarhorn's ability to flash in as both an offensive and defensive two-for-one. When you have four mana available you can blow out your opponent with Briarhorn in ways that Rampager simply doesn't allow. I think both are fantastic cards and the only reason Briarhorn isn't in my cube currently is that I forgot it existed.
Not trying to be overly antagonistic here, but this statement is reeeeeal off-base. Saying that Rampager "is better in every way" outside of being multicolor completely ignores Briarhorn's ability to flash in as both an offensive and defensive two-for-one. When you have four mana available you can blow out your opponent with Briarhorn in ways that Rampager simply doesn't allow. I think both are fantastic cards and the only reason Briarhorn isn't in my cube currently is that I forgot it existed.
I agree with this. Briarhorn is a really good card, and one of my favourite cards from Lorwyn. and I've been meaning to try it out in my cube for ages, but keep forgetting about it. I've ordered a foil one
I"m also a big fan of Briarhorn, and honestly I'd play it before I played the rampager. The attacking only thing is really a big deal for me. Plus, the fact that if you spend the full amount of mana, you get the boost AND the dude later means you can actually gain card advantage from a combat trick. Rampager doesn't do that.
Briarhorn is in and out of my cube, and I suspect he'll be in again before too long. We've been discussing bringing more pump into the cube and I was about to bring him back when I decided to try Slaughterhorn in that slot instead, but I may choose him over slaughterhorn or I may play both.
I love Briarhorn and he's been in my cube since the start. I think he's a lot better than Slaughterhorn as he not only goes in aggro but also into Blink strategies. Seriously though, having to fight a Briarhorn with a Crystal Shard up is pretty much impossible with various decks.
That being said, I do think Ghor-Clan Rampager is a better card. The larger body and trample are nice, but I wouldn't say it's quite as good as the body of Briarhorn when you consider the flash combat trick that it can be. However, the pump is stronger and it gives trample, which can be massive... I know it's highly anecdotal but I don't know how many of you have seen the combination of Rampager and Boros Charm take a player from 15+ life to 0 in one attack in regular Gatecrash limited, but boy does the trample matter in a situation like that.
In short, Briarhorn, while very strong, won't allow you to basically negate a chump block, and can still be countered. So yes, he's better in some situations, but in aggro especially the Rampager will just get you there more often.
I like Briarhorn, and while he does suffer from the glut of green four drops, I think people should run him over the less exciting Chameleon Colossus. I like that Gatecrash brought us two more combat tricks in Ghor-Clan Rampager, which seems to be a dream come true for naya zoo, and Simic Charm. Green combat tricks had been lagging, and I like to include them as much as I like to push blue bounce.
I think it's better than Briarhorn. The pump mode and creature mode are both so much better beatdown modes. Briarhorn is a better defensive card. But I'm more interested in better offensive cards in those colors. Briarhorn just failed to impress over and over again. I expect to get a lot more mileage out of the Rampager, because it's an effect I actually want for the decks that are gonna play it.
1. Is the creature I pump actually worth keeping around? Will it be better than a 4/4 trampler, or is it likely to be obsoleted by the opponent's creatures as the game goes on?
2. Is the defending creature I kill worth losing one of my own threats in hand? I.e. is it worth at least as much as a four mana multicolored creature, or a five mana monocolored creature?
3. Will the pump win the game right now?
1. It doesn't have to be better than a 4/4 trampler. Because you're paying half the mana to keep it around. Additionally, the creature you're saving isn't the only value to consider. You're killing their blocker too. So the question isn't if your creature is better than a 4/4 trampler, the question is: Is killing their blocker, saving my attacker and bolting my opponent a better use of 2 mana than getting a 4/4 trample is for 4 mana. The answer to that question is yes.
2. Considering the Rampager was added to the deck with the expectation of it being played as a spell, it didn't take up one of your threat slots during deckbuilding. It can double as that role in a pinch, but that's not why it was included in the cube, or included in your deck. And it doesn't have to justify a 4cc gold creature slot for the same reason. I would expect more from a 4cc gold creature than a 4/4 trample, but that's not relevant. Because it's both a creature and a spell. And the spell mode is what makes it good.
3. The pump doesn't have to win the game right now. There's a good chance that the pump will put you in a better position to win the game than the creature will though, considering it will function as removal, protection and reach.
I like Briarhorn, and while he does suffer from the glut of green four drops, I think people should run him over the less exciting Chameleon Colossus. I like that Gatecrash brought us two more combat tricks in Ghor-Clan Rampager, which seems to be a dream come true for naya zoo, and Simic Charm. Green combat tricks had been lagging, and I like to include them as much as I like to push blue bounce.
Three combat tricks if you count Boros Charm. The indestructibility and the double strike can be used as combat tricks very nicely.
Briarhorn wasn't very impressive when I ran it, but my cube was very different then. I think I'd try it out again instead of bringing Chameleon Colossus or Blastoderm back. If Deadbridge Goliath continues to be mediocre, I might give Old Horny another spin. I do like the Rampager a lot but I don't think it makes the top 5 Gruul cards.
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I've played a lot with Briarhorn, and for me it has without fail always been the green Shriekmaw. It comes into play, kills something, leaves a 3/3. Unlike Shriekmaw, it kills only attacking creatures, but then again, it costs one mana less, has flash and can save your own creatures in a pinch. Briarhorn is nothing short of incredible, a creature with great versatility and power.
Briarhorn can take down Titan-sized creatures without needing any help. It can pump creatures on offense and defense. It works with Blink effects. You can get the pump AND the creature. There's all kinds of things that Briarhorn does that Rampager can't.
The Rampager is a great card, no doubt about it. There's a lot of good thing to say about an aggressively costed pumpspell that can in a pinch also be played on an empty board, if needed. But it simply can't compare to all the insane stuff that Briarhorn can do.
So, this statement...
... is absolutely wrong.
Well that's your opinion. The G or G/r decks here that typically want to include an effect like this in my cube are almost always on the offensive. Briarhorn is pretty good as a defensive creature, but that isn't what that deck needs. Rampager is just simply better there.
If Rampager was a mono-green creature with the same effect, I'd put him in every G/x deck over Briarhorn all day. So in my eyes the multicolor is his main weakness. But that's just me I guess.
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Briarhorn is better in creature mode, and Rampager is better in spell mode. The last thing I need is another 4cc creature to compete with the rest of the bomb 4-drops out there. But I'm more than happy to add in a great 2cc pump spell. So it's not a clear head to head comparison at all, considering one card fills a role I want, and the other one doesn't.
I cut Briarhorn years ago due to not being as good in practice as it was on paper/in mind. However, I think this new card is a very good fit for the archetype and can often act as a pseudo Searing Blaze (good point, whomever made that comparison), and is a card that fits well into the aggressive nature of the archetype (where we found that Briarhorn was often best on defense).
I actually had the spell that did this effect (RG +4/+4 and trample) in my Cube for a while in order to keep combat tricks as a part of the Cube, but it was removed a while ago for the same reason lots of combat tricks get removed: the removal is too good. The fact that he doubles as a pseudo-evasive creature with a decent if not spectacular body (that only gets better with equipment and other pumps) puts him in range for Cube inclusion in medium-sized and up Cubes, IMO.
The spell is Colossal Might, but it only gives +2 to toughness, can be countered, can't be tutored or reanimated as a creature, and can't be cast as a 4/4 trampling beater when the need arises. It's an okay spell, but this card is much better and more versatile.
Did I imply that it was worse? I meant to imply the opposite if I did, and I'm actually considering this card for inclusion for those exact reasons you stated.
The spell is Colossal Might, but it only gives +2 to toughness, can be countered, can't be tutored or reanimated as a creature, and can't be cast as a 4/4 trampling beater when the need arises. It's an okay spell, but this card is much better and more versatile.
I agree with all of this. In last weeks limited draft I sure abused Wildwood Rebirth and the Rampager and frustrated people running countermagic.
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Did I imply that it was worse? I meant to imply the opposite if I did, and I'm actually considering this card for inclusion for those exact reasons you stated.
-AA
No, I was just elaborating on the comparison. I got the impression from your post that you thought the Rampager was better.
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I agree with all of this. In last weeks limited draft I sure abused Wildwood Rebirth and the Rampager and frustrated people running countermagic.
I look forward to chaining the Rampager with a Genesis.
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Other than being multicolor, the Rampager is better in every way. I agree the trample really seals the deal.
Note that I don't actually disagree with this theory. My beef is still whether it will be worth it in spell mode. There are several caveats I consider if I'm holding the Ravager with mana open for both modes:
1. Is the creature I pump actually worth keeping around? Will it be better than a 4/4 trampler, or is it likely to be obsoleted by the opponent's creatures as the game goes on?
2. Is the defending creature I kill worth losing one of my own threats in hand? I.e. is it worth at least as much as a four mana multicolored creature, or a five mana monocolored creature?
3. Will the pump win the game right now?
Four extra damage for two mana is pretty sweet, no arguing there. Boros Charm is cubeable due to a combination of being unique and in a guild with room to spare. In Gruul, this is neither. But if Rampager can consistently answer the first two questions with a yes, I might be interested. Any other scenario means it isn't worth the inclusion in my cube
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Not trying to be overly antagonistic here, but this statement is reeeeeal off-base. Saying that Rampager "is better in every way" outside of being multicolor completely ignores Briarhorn's ability to flash in as both an offensive and defensive two-for-one. When you have four mana available you can blow out your opponent with Briarhorn in ways that Rampager simply doesn't allow. I think both are fantastic cards and the only reason Briarhorn isn't in my cube currently is that I forgot it existed.
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I agree with this. Briarhorn is a really good card, and one of my favourite cards from Lorwyn. and I've been meaning to try it out in my cube for ages, but keep forgetting about it. I've ordered a foil one
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Briarhorn is in and out of my cube, and I suspect he'll be in again before too long. We've been discussing bringing more pump into the cube and I was about to bring him back when I decided to try Slaughterhorn in that slot instead, but I may choose him over slaughterhorn or I may play both.
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That being said, I do think Ghor-Clan Rampager is a better card. The larger body and trample are nice, but I wouldn't say it's quite as good as the body of Briarhorn when you consider the flash combat trick that it can be. However, the pump is stronger and it gives trample, which can be massive... I know it's highly anecdotal but I don't know how many of you have seen the combination of Rampager and Boros Charm take a player from 15+ life to 0 in one attack in regular Gatecrash limited, but boy does the trample matter in a situation like that.
In short, Briarhorn, while very strong, won't allow you to basically negate a chump block, and can still be countered. So yes, he's better in some situations, but in aggro especially the Rampager will just get you there more often.
1. It doesn't have to be better than a 4/4 trampler. Because you're paying half the mana to keep it around. Additionally, the creature you're saving isn't the only value to consider. You're killing their blocker too. So the question isn't if your creature is better than a 4/4 trampler, the question is: Is killing their blocker, saving my attacker and bolting my opponent a better use of 2 mana than getting a 4/4 trample is for 4 mana. The answer to that question is yes.
2. Considering the Rampager was added to the deck with the expectation of it being played as a spell, it didn't take up one of your threat slots during deckbuilding. It can double as that role in a pinch, but that's not why it was included in the cube, or included in your deck. And it doesn't have to justify a 4cc gold creature slot for the same reason. I would expect more from a 4cc gold creature than a 4/4 trample, but that's not relevant. Because it's both a creature and a spell. And the spell mode is what makes it good.
3. The pump doesn't have to win the game right now. There's a good chance that the pump will put you in a better position to win the game than the creature will though, considering it will function as removal, protection and reach.
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Three combat tricks if you count Boros Charm. The indestructibility and the double strike can be used as combat tricks very nicely.
Briarhorn wasn't very impressive when I ran it, but my cube was very different then. I think I'd try it out again instead of bringing Chameleon Colossus or Blastoderm back. If Deadbridge Goliath continues to be mediocre, I might give Old Horny another spin. I do like the Rampager a lot but I don't think it makes the top 5 Gruul cards.
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Well that's your opinion. The G or G/r decks here that typically want to include an effect like this in my cube are almost always on the offensive. Briarhorn is pretty good as a defensive creature, but that isn't what that deck needs. Rampager is just simply better there.
If Rampager was a mono-green creature with the same effect, I'd put him in every G/x deck over Briarhorn all day. So in my eyes the multicolor is his main weakness. But that's just me I guess.
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I actually had the spell that did this effect (RG +4/+4 and trample) in my Cube for a while in order to keep combat tricks as a part of the Cube, but it was removed a while ago for the same reason lots of combat tricks get removed: the removal is too good. The fact that he doubles as a pseudo-evasive creature with a decent if not spectacular body (that only gets better with equipment and other pumps) puts him in range for Cube inclusion in medium-sized and up Cubes, IMO.
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-AA
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I agree with all of this. In last weeks limited draft I sure abused Wildwood Rebirth and the Rampager and frustrated people running countermagic.
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No, I was just elaborating on the comparison. I got the impression from your post that you thought the Rampager was better.
I look forward to chaining the Rampager with a Genesis.
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