Though if this was to be printed it would probably have to be 1U, and I don't think they could make it an instant. But I would love to build my own magpie!
Though if this was to be printed it would probably have to be 1U, and I don't think they could make it an instant. But I would love to build my own magpie!
Yep, a draw a card Cipher was exactly what I was coming in here to suggest. That card would make me unbelievably happy.
I definitely think a 1u instant speed cantrip is printable.
Yeah now that I think about it more it seems more viable, then it can be cycled at instant speed or best case scenario it becomes much better than Divination but you have to put the work in... though I don't think it would be that tough to make happen.
For one thing, it seems extremely unlikely that cypher will appear on instants. The blowout potential mid-combat would break games.
For another, I'm not averse to change, but I'd be reluctant to either open up my blue section for a bad 1/1 (I'd probably play Tormented Soul before Stalker, since the Soul is cheaper and in a more aggro color) or open up my multicolor section to a beater that's almost certain to be overshadowed by whatever new toys Dimir will get. If we look at the adoption of RtR keywords in cube, only a handful of cards made it in, and that's combining all five keywords. Even with the reappearance of cipher in Dragon's Maze, I'm doubtful that there will be a critical mass to tempt anyone into running subpar unblockable creatures.
Obviously all of the mechanics have potential; all that is required is for them to be present on a strong enough card. However, I think WotC will be cautious with Cipher given the presence of strong unblockable creatures in standard. Extort on any reasonably costed beater could be fantastic, as it fits the sligh mentality of using up surplus mana if you're not able to curve out perfectly and helps aggressive B/W in two ways.
Whispering Madness is bad but Cipher is interesting. We'll see which cards get printed with Cipher. The risk of being 2-for-1 is pretty high.
I think you misread Cipher. You get the effect at least once, any trigger you get in with an unblocked creature is bonus. It's much like a fixed aura precisely because you can't get 2-for-1'ed.
Cipher is potentially very strong. Even on something simple like one card discard or looting would be powerful on a one or two mana spell. Keep in mind you can cast before combat and then attack with the creature getting the effect twice immediately.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I thought that the exile requirement was part of the Cypher "cost", preventing its initial cast from resolving. Similar to exiling a spell for Nivmagus Elemental. Is that not the case?
Oh, never mind. I see the ability starts off with the word "Then..." which implies that the ability resolves first and then you can Cypher it to a creature. Very cool.
Whispering Madness is bad but Cipher is interesting. We'll see which cards get printed with Cipher. The risk of being 2-for-1 is pretty high.
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I was thinking about that, but you're already getting the spell for free over and over after the first time, so it's not like you're really getting 2-for-1'd like you would with some enchantments. Like, the draw-card one, it's already replaced itself, so every hit after that is just gravy. The kill spell, if they make one, will end up at minimum of 1-for-1 and every hit afterwards will probably be gravy.
Giving repeatable free spells seems like it has potential to be pretty broken, like cascade, the "untap x lands" urza spells, phyrexian mana to a point, etc. Printing this in the same format as invisible stalker seems like it could be a slight mistake if they release a card that's too powerful.
I find this part of your argument very difficult to disagree with.
Like many other mill cards, Whispering Madness has the potential to have achieved nothing if it (or the creature to which it is attached) is removed before it gets the job done.
I don't think any of the mechanics are necessarily good or bad for cube, it is just a question of how far R&D are prepared to push them. I'm not too fussed if none of the guild-mechanic cards make it into my cube. Many of my favourites from RTR don't have guild mechanics.
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At least regarding Whispering Madness, the mill is symmetrical and I can imagine the scenario where you end up dying to no library first, which would be hilarious. Granted, there will probably be other mill cards in Dimir, but it would still be awesome.
As for the ability, I think others have mentioned that a Doomblade, draw a card/impulse, unsummon variant would be great. Even something like sleep or turnabout would be a blowout. but likely it would just be a one target twiddle effect.
Looking forward to seeing the powered up versions of these new abilities!
At least regarding Whispering Madness, the mill is symmetrical and I can imagine the scenario where you end up dying to no library first, which would be hilarious. Granted, there will probably be other mill cards in Dimir, but it would still be awesome.
Say you attack and both you and your opponent are both milled out. You pass the turn and they die first.
Say you attack and both you and your opponent are both milled out. You pass the turn and they die first.
If you both draw out due to Whispering Madness because of your attack you would only win if you had to draw exactly the number of cards in your deck, since it is a draw and not actually a mill mechanic.
So what does everyone think a "Destroy target creature" with cipher would have to cost to be playable in cube? How about "Draw a card" with cipher? Or an Unsummon?
So what does everyone think a "Destroy target creature" with cipher would have to cost to be playable in cube? How about "Draw a card" with cipher? Or an Unsummon?
I think it depends on whether or not it is an instant. If for instance it is only a doom blade with cipher but still an instant I think 4 or even 5 mana is okay because you could play it in response to them declaring blockers and let it hit twice. If it's a sorcery I think it needs to be more aggressively costed to make it in.
Whispering Madness seems insane for EDH Cube. I love me some Wheel effects, and my UB section isn't too exciting at the moment.
Doom Blade with Cipher I see being a 1BB sorcery or a 2BB/4B Instant, and it'd be insane in regular cubes. There's enough evasive U and B guys that this could almost be oppressive.
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Cipher looks pretty exciting. I look forward to seeing what they do with it. I doubt we'll get the random discard cipher spell, but what are the odds we'll get a name a card discard, cipher spell? Something like Cabal Therapy.
So what does everyone think a "Destroy target creature" with cipher would have to cost to be playable in cube? How about "Draw a card" with cipher? Or an Unsummon?
Doom Blade: This card will probably cost like 6-7. Since it immediately kills something and usually immediately kills something else, forever acting as the abyss from then on until they remove the dude, it doesn't exactly seem like the most fun or balanced card to be putting on a saboteur aura. I'd cube it at 5, but then I try to make sure people always have creatures out.
Cantrip: Probably U2 or UU. Nobody's really thinking that curiosity was so awful you could attach draw a card and still have it be unplayable. This would just be curiosity, draw a card since cipher triggers once the spell is done doing it's thing.
Unsummon: Again, this is a heckofa tempo swing. Undo was costed at UU1, and I think it's on the fringe of cube playability. Maybe U2? it does seem a lot harder.
I'm really looking forward to the BB or B1 mind rot, that thing would be sweet.
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I just want to see an enchantment that says Instant and Sorcery spells you control have Cipher.
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Draw a card
Cipher
Though if this was to be printed it would probably have to be 1U, and I don't think they could make it an instant. But I would love to build my own magpie!
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Yep, a draw a card Cipher was exactly what I was coming in here to suggest. That card would make me unbelievably happy.
Yeah now that I think about it more it seems more viable, then it can be cycled at instant speed or best case scenario it becomes much better than Divination but you have to put the work in... though I don't think it would be that tough to make happen.
I'm starting to wonder if the Cipher mechanic takes off if Invisible Stalker or Inkfathom Infiltrator might make appearances in a number of cubes.
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For another, I'm not averse to change, but I'd be reluctant to either open up my blue section for a bad 1/1 (I'd probably play Tormented Soul before Stalker, since the Soul is cheaper and in a more aggro color) or open up my multicolor section to a beater that's almost certain to be overshadowed by whatever new toys Dimir will get. If we look at the adoption of RtR keywords in cube, only a handful of cards made it in, and that's combining all five keywords. Even with the reappearance of cipher in Dragon's Maze, I'm doubtful that there will be a critical mass to tempt anyone into running subpar unblockable creatures.
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No reason to despair though, it's quite clear they spoiled non-exciting cards just to reveal the guild keywords.
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Oh, never mind. I see the ability starts off with the word "Then..." which implies that the ability resolves first and then you can Cypher it to a creature. Very cool.
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I was thinking about that, but you're already getting the spell for free over and over after the first time, so it's not like you're really getting 2-for-1'd like you would with some enchantments. Like, the draw-card one, it's already replaced itself, so every hit after that is just gravy. The kill spell, if they make one, will end up at minimum of 1-for-1 and every hit afterwards will probably be gravy.
Giving repeatable free spells seems like it has potential to be pretty broken, like cascade, the "untap x lands" urza spells, phyrexian mana to a point, etc. Printing this in the same format as invisible stalker seems like it could be a slight mistake if they release a card that's too powerful.
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I find this part of your argument very difficult to disagree with.
Like many other mill cards, Whispering Madness has the potential to have achieved nothing if it (or the creature to which it is attached) is removed before it gets the job done.
I don't think any of the mechanics are necessarily good or bad for cube, it is just a question of how far R&D are prepared to push them. I'm not too fussed if none of the guild-mechanic cards make it into my cube. Many of my favourites from RTR don't have guild mechanics.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
As for the ability, I think others have mentioned that a Doomblade, draw a card/impulse, unsummon variant would be great. Even something like sleep or turnabout would be a blowout. but likely it would just be a one target twiddle effect.
Looking forward to seeing the powered up versions of these new abilities!
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Say you attack and both you and your opponent are both milled out. You pass the turn and they die first.
If you both draw out due to Whispering Madness because of your attack you would only win if you had to draw exactly the number of cards in your deck, since it is a draw and not actually a mill mechanic.
My cube on Deckstats
I think it depends on whether or not it is an instant. If for instance it is only a doom blade with cipher but still an instant I think 4 or even 5 mana is okay because you could play it in response to them declaring blockers and let it hit twice. If it's a sorcery I think it needs to be more aggressively costed to make it in.
My cube on Deckstats
It's a restricted-in-type-1 card with a B attached to the casting cost. And you get a "fixed aura" attached to it.
It's not really for cube, but definitely not bad.
Cipher seems like a very sweet guild mechanic, as others have mentioned.
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Doom Blade with Cipher I see being a 1BB sorcery or a 2BB/4B Instant, and it'd be insane in regular cubes. There's enough evasive U and B guys that this could almost be oppressive.
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Doom Blade: This card will probably cost like 6-7. Since it immediately kills something and usually immediately kills something else, forever acting as the abyss from then on until they remove the dude, it doesn't exactly seem like the most fun or balanced card to be putting on a saboteur aura. I'd cube it at 5, but then I try to make sure people always have creatures out.
Cantrip: Probably U2 or UU. Nobody's really thinking that curiosity was so awful you could attach draw a card and still have it be unplayable. This would just be curiosity, draw a card since cipher triggers once the spell is done doing it's thing.
Unsummon: Again, this is a heckofa tempo swing. Undo was costed at UU1, and I think it's on the fringe of cube playability. Maybe U2? it does seem a lot harder.
I'm really looking forward to the BB or B1 mind rot, that thing would be sweet.