Well, I'm at 545, but I keep my (non hybrid non split) gold section fairly tight, and include any non fetch/dual/shock lands as well as signets in there, so my UB section looks like this:
As for Seer, I really like the effect, but I hate the cost (every blue four drop I run is as good or better in tempo, and black has some good ones as well before we even get to walkers and spells at 4CC) and the color combination. We see blue tempo here, but black is seemingly the least popular color to pair with blue for tempo. UB tends to be artifact, reanimator, or control for us.
Is this not true for others? Is the four slot more open than I think in UB tempo, and is UB tempo better than UW, UR, or UG tempo?
(Note, these are not rhetorical questions. I'm genuinely interested in peoples experiences.)
And just as a reference, my blue and black four drop section:
I think that UB tempo is the second best U-based aggro deck behind WU, and it's definitely worth experimenting with the archetype more if you had Seer in the cube. It's the best 4-drop in that particular deck. Personally, I'd cut the Charm for Seer without hesitation. And if UB "tends" to be artifact decks, Tezz 2 should make an appearance in your section, perhaps over Strix.
It's like a Moroii, Howling Mine and Sulfuric Vortex wrapped up into one card. It's the perfect curve-topper for UB aggro.
I think that UB tempo is the second best U-based aggro deck behind WU, and it's definitely worth experimenting with the archetype more if you had Seer in the cube. It's the best 4-drop in that particular deck. Personally, I'd cut the Charm for Seer without hesitation. And if UB "tends" to be artifact decks, Tezz 2 should make an appearance in your section, perhaps over Strix.
It's like a Moroii, Howling Mine and Sulfuric Vortex wrapped up into one card. It's the perfect curve-topper for UB aggro.
Whoops. Put Charm and meant Signet. And Strix was better for us in UB artifact decks (and certainly outside of them) than even Tezz was. Again, I tend to end up with too many 4CC cards, and not enough slots to play them.
Maybe I should add it over Infiltrator? I love that guy, but he is the only card not supporting an archetype, though he himself is pretty great in tempo.
Baleful Strix is played in almost every UB deck (I really can't remember a time when a UB deck had left it in the sideboard). I'd say that makes him a staple in any sized cube.
Baleful Strix is played in almost every UB deck (I really can't remember a time when a UB deck had left it in the sideboard). I'd say that makes him a staple in any sized cube.
I'd disagree. If you are only running 3-4 cards per section, I could easily see Strix not making the cut. Strix is good in every UB deck but it's not necessary for any UB deck. It doesn't really push or enable any archetype. It's a goodstuff card. If I had to cut down to 3 cards, I'd run 'tog, Infiltrator, and Duskmantle Seer ('tog for control, reanimator, and general shenanigans; Infiltrator for tempo and control; Seer for tempo--where he's likely the best creature in the deck). If I cut down to 4, I'd be torn between Stix and Tezz2.0. Tezz might very well get the nod because he's so good in the artifact deck. Luckily, I run 5 cards so I don't have to make this choice.
Baleful Strix is played in almost every UB deck (I really can't remember a time when a UB deck had left it in the sideboard). I'd say that makes him a staple in any sized cube.
There are a TON of gold cards that wouldn't sit in sideboards. Making the cut in a final 40 isn't nearly as important from a gold card as enabling archetypes or being one of the most powerful cards in any deck it gets played in. I cut Strix because while good, it wasn't important or exciting. It was a simple 2-mana 2-for-1. Good, efficient, but unexciting and unnecessary.
In our cube, Strix has been both one of the most powerful cards in any deck it gets played in, AND has enabled archetypes (artifact, blink, reanimation, UBW Moat, tempo with equips, etc). Two cost two for ones that impact the board and can be further abused are anything but ho hum, at least for us. If you know of some more, point me to them!
There are a TON of gold cards that wouldn't sit in sideboards. Making the cut in a final 40 isn't nearly as important from a gold card as enabling archetypes or being one of the most powerful cards in any deck it gets played in. I cut Strix because while good, it wasn't important or exciting. It was a simple 2-mana 2-for-1. Good, efficient, but unexciting and unnecessary.
I think that is the definition of a great card, making the final 40 in any deck. That doesn't mean I don't agree with you though. I believe if you playgroup likes to play a style of deck, than adding the support (well best card) for that deck is more important than an overall solid card. As for unbiasely ranking the cards, I do say that the Strix would be 3rd, though I would run Duskmantle Seer over it in my own personal cube.
Evolving Wilds and Terra Expanse are probably the two cards that will make the cut in most final 40 outside of aggro decks. But I don't see those cards being played much. Making final 40 is one thing, making space for that in cube over another good card is another matter entirely.
That said, at 3 card section, Creepting Tar Pit will be push out of the due to having 3 card section there also. It should then be Tar Pit over Duskmantle Seer, probably.
Evolving Wilds and Terra Expanse are probably the two cards that will make the cut in most final 40 outside of aggro decks. But I don't see those cards being played much. Making final 40 is one thing, making space for that in cube over another good card is another matter entirely.
That said, at 3 card section, Creepting Tar Pit will be push out of the due to having 3 card section there also. It should then be Tar Pit over Duskmantle Seer, probably.
I'm confused (PS OP 4 LIFE), if they always make the final 40, why are they not seeing play? Just confused as to what you meant.
And forgot about Creeping Tar Pit. Because it is a mana fixer, I consider it under my mana fixing and not slotted into the 5 cards I allow for the guild. If I had to rate everything:
1 Shadowmage Infiltraitor
2 Pyschatog
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Baleful Strix (As said if you players are not fans of certain decktypes)
5 Duskmantle Seer (Ranked 4 If you support U/B tempo)
6 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas (Ranked 4 if you support U/B artifacts, or 5 if you support U/B tempo and U/B Artifacts)
I think that you should switch to the Talisman instead. UB has a good number of good 1 mana and CC cards that makes it beneficial to have access to the different kind of mana production.
I run Talisman over Signet for these reasons. I agree with Eidolon here.
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I ran that configuration for a long time. They're all great cards (especially the Tar Pit and I can see how it's perhaps the better card) but none of them make me want to go into UB. I like Seer because he makes players want to draft the archetype. Is he necessary to the archetype? Maybe not. But he just makes it that much more efficient/effective, and he's consistently picked up early in the draft by my players (and by me :)).
If I could cheat (which I'm very very tempted to do) I would run Tar Pit. I'd say he's in the best 5 cards that I'm not running.
I ran that configuration for a long time. They're all great cards (especially the Tar Pit and I can see how it's perhaps the better card) but none of them make me want to go into UB. I like Seer because he makes players want to draft the archetype. Is he necessary to the archetype? Maybe not. But he just makes it that much more efficient/effective, and he's consistently picked up early in the draft by my players (and by me :)).
If I could cheat (which I'm very very tempted to do) I would run Tar Pit. I'd say he's in the best 5 cards that I'm not running.
I understand, and don't disagree with, your larger point, but Creeping Tar Pit makes me want to run UB more than any other card ever printed. Getting your spell and fixing in one draft pick is insanity. I would (and have) cut the Seer for it.
Recent discussion regarding Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver has turned into a Dimir debate. As far as I can see, legitimate candidates for Dimir, not including lands are:
Am I missing any? Obviously, some of these cards are better in concert. Tezzeret loves Strix, for example. I feel as though Dimir supports tempo, artifacts, and traditional control all very well, but it can't do everything at once. What are people running, and why?
Recent discussion regarding Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver has turned into a Dimir debate. As far as I can see, legitimate candidates for Dimir, not including lands are:
Am I missing any? Obviously, some of these cards are better in concert. Tezzeret loves Strix, for example. I feel as though Dimir supports tempo, artifacts, and traditional control all very well, but it can't do everything at once. What are people running, and why?
No, you hit all the major players, IMO. And depending on how your playgroup likes to use UB, any combination of those above cards can be the right call.
I currently use 'Tog, Finkel, Strix and Tezz. Because: 'Tog is a discard outlet for reanimator builds and a cheap control finisher that can win the game for three mana; Finkel is a Phyrexian Arena that damages my opponent instead of me, can carry Swords like a champ and stymies aggro's beaters for a turn; Strix because it goes in every UB deck, and is especially valuable in the artifact.dec and tempo; and Tezz because it's a linchpin to the artifact.dec's success.
Seer is next in line because we love UB tempo, and he's a house in that deck. Right behind that is the Fuse card, because it's a solid card for every UB deck, even if it's not particularly exciting. Bringing up the rear for me is Ashiok -- not because it's bad (it's quite good, actually) but simply because we don't play the Dimir decks where it really shines.
Testing my cube at 360 I am running Psychatog, Duskmantle Seer and Shadowmage Infiltrator. I really hate losing Creeping Tar Pit but I'm not sure which one to cut for it. All 3 are drafted a ton in my cube. Any suggestions or should I give up on Tar Pit? I'm tempted to cheat and throw it in my Land section but I think it's unfair to the other guilds.
with UB Tezz (sadly) just missing the cut.
As for Seer, I really like the effect, but I hate the cost (every blue four drop I run is as good or better in tempo, and black has some good ones as well before we even get to walkers and spells at 4CC) and the color combination. We see blue tempo here, but black is seemingly the least popular color to pair with blue for tempo. UB tends to be artifact, reanimator, or control for us.
Is this not true for others? Is the four slot more open than I think in UB tempo, and is UB tempo better than UW, UR, or UG tempo?
(Note, these are not rhetorical questions. I'm genuinely interested in peoples experiences.)
And just as a reference, my blue and black four drop section:
It's like a Moroii, Howling Mine and Sulfuric Vortex wrapped up into one card. It's the perfect curve-topper for UB aggro.
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Whoops. Put Charm and meant Signet. And Strix was better for us in UB artifact decks (and certainly outside of them) than even Tezz was. Again, I tend to end up with too many 4CC cards, and not enough slots to play them.
Maybe I should add it over Infiltrator? I love that guy, but he is the only card not supporting an archetype, though he himself is pretty great in tempo.
Thanks for the info.
I'd disagree. If you are only running 3-4 cards per section, I could easily see Strix not making the cut. Strix is good in every UB deck but it's not necessary for any UB deck. It doesn't really push or enable any archetype. It's a goodstuff card. If I had to cut down to 3 cards, I'd run 'tog, Infiltrator, and Duskmantle Seer ('tog for control, reanimator, and general shenanigans; Infiltrator for tempo and control; Seer for tempo--where he's likely the best creature in the deck). If I cut down to 4, I'd be torn between Stix and Tezz2.0. Tezz might very well get the nod because he's so good in the artifact deck. Luckily, I run 5 cards so I don't have to make this choice.
Cheers,
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There are a TON of gold cards that wouldn't sit in sideboards. Making the cut in a final 40 isn't nearly as important from a gold card as enabling archetypes or being one of the most powerful cards in any deck it gets played in. I cut Strix because while good, it wasn't important or exciting. It was a simple 2-mana 2-for-1. Good, efficient, but unexciting and unnecessary.
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I think that is the definition of a great card, making the final 40 in any deck. That doesn't mean I don't agree with you though. I believe if you playgroup likes to play a style of deck, than adding the support (well best card) for that deck is more important than an overall solid card. As for unbiasely ranking the cards, I do say that the Strix would be 3rd, though I would run Duskmantle Seer over it in my own personal cube.
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That said, at 3 card section, Creepting Tar Pit will be push out of the due to having 3 card section there also. It should then be Tar Pit over Duskmantle Seer, probably.
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I'm confused (PS OP 4 LIFE), if they always make the final 40, why are they not seeing play? Just confused as to what you meant.
And forgot about Creeping Tar Pit. Because it is a mana fixer, I consider it under my mana fixing and not slotted into the 5 cards I allow for the guild. If I had to rate everything:
1 Shadowmage Infiltraitor
2 Pyschatog
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Baleful Strix (As said if you players are not fans of certain decktypes)
5 Duskmantle Seer (Ranked 4 If you support U/B tempo)
6 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas (Ranked 4 if you support U/B artifacts, or 5 if you support U/B tempo and U/B Artifacts)
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I mean that regardless of them seeing play is not related to them being high in term of power. It's more of consistency vs high explosive power thing.
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Not necessarily, you can happily cut a sub-par gold card for it at 360.
I am, he's been consistently very good for us.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I run Talisman over Signet for these reasons. I agree with Eidolon here.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I also think he's better than 'Tog. My Dimir section is:
If I could add one more card it would most definitely be Creeping Tar Pit.
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Agreed. Which is why I run those two cards.
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I ran that configuration for a long time. They're all great cards (especially the Tar Pit and I can see how it's perhaps the better card) but none of them make me want to go into UB. I like Seer because he makes players want to draft the archetype. Is he necessary to the archetype? Maybe not. But he just makes it that much more efficient/effective, and he's consistently picked up early in the draft by my players (and by me :)).
If I could cheat (which I'm very very tempted to do) I would run Tar Pit. I'd say he's in the best 5 cards that I'm not running.
I understand, and don't disagree with, your larger point, but Creeping Tar Pit makes me want to run UB more than any other card ever printed. Getting your spell and fixing in one draft pick is insanity. I would (and have) cut the Seer for it.
Far//Away
Psychatog
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Duskmantle Seer
Baleful Strix
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Am I missing any? Obviously, some of these cards are better in concert. Tezzeret loves Strix, for example. I feel as though Dimir supports tempo, artifacts, and traditional control all very well, but it can't do everything at once. What are people running, and why?
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No, you hit all the major players, IMO. And depending on how your playgroup likes to use UB, any combination of those above cards can be the right call.
I currently use 'Tog, Finkel, Strix and Tezz. Because: 'Tog is a discard outlet for reanimator builds and a cheap control finisher that can win the game for three mana; Finkel is a Phyrexian Arena that damages my opponent instead of me, can carry Swords like a champ and stymies aggro's beaters for a turn; Strix because it goes in every UB deck, and is especially valuable in the artifact.dec and tempo; and Tezz because it's a linchpin to the artifact.dec's success.
Seer is next in line because we love UB tempo, and he's a house in that deck. Right behind that is the Fuse card, because it's a solid card for every UB deck, even if it's not particularly exciting. Bringing up the rear for me is Ashiok -- not because it's bad (it's quite good, actually) but simply because we don't play the Dimir decks where it really shines.
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