As I was optimizing my red section, I found that I had a lot of candidates for the red 4-drop slot. I figured we might as well have a thread to discuss them, since we seem to constantly be getting more lately.
Flametongue Kavu
Koth of the Hammer
Avalanche Riders
Hero of Oxid Ridge
Hellrider
Keldon Champion
I think that ranking is pretty good, though I think Kavu and Koth are both better than the other four. Of the other four, I think they are all about equal, better or worse in some situations, though Avalanche Riders is much better if the deck has more LD.
Flametongue Kavu
Koth of the Hammer
Avalanche Riders
Hero of Bladehold
Hellrider
Keldon Champion
In that order. I run all but the Champion in my 500.
I count Goblin Ruinblaster as a 4-drop. I run him over Champion in my cube because I value land destruction. In a vacuum, Champion is probably the better card.
My ranking
Koth
Hero/Hellrider
FTK
Avalanche Riders
This is the cutoff of what I run in my 360 so I really can't rank them after that.
I love all of them but I find most of my red decks can just about seal the game if they get to attack with 4 hasty power on turn 4, so FTK is just a little lower than the ones with haste. Having only 2 power makes it tough on Avalanche Riders even if it's effect is crazy strong.
Care to explain why you think it's the best? This has always seemed to just be a consensus opinion on this forum, and I get that it is a very good card, but head and shoulders above the other red 4's I don't see it.
When drafting red aggro I would rather have a hasty attacker with 4 power than remove a blocker and have a four power attacker the next turn. I'll admit that FTK is more flexible in terms of what it goes in but I would rather have Koth, Hero, or Hellrider in an aggro deck.
Care to explain why you think it's the best? This has always seemed to just be a consensus opinion on this forum, and I get that it is a very good card, but head and shoulders above the other red 4's I don't see it.
When drafting red aggro I would rather have a hasty attacker with 4 power than remove a blocker and have a four power attacker the next turn. I'll admit that FTK is more flexible in terms of what it goes in but I would rather have Koth, Hero, or Hellrider in an aggro deck.
Part of it is that that four damage to a creature is outside red's normal range of damage (2-3) for burn spells, making it a lot more effective against walls like Wall of Omens / Blossoms, random green 4/4's like Yeva or Wickerbough Elder, Hero of Bladehold.... you get the idea.
Part of it is that that four damage to a creature is outside red's normal range of damage (2-3) for burn spells, making it a lot more effective against walls like Wall of Omens / Blossoms, random green 4/4's like Yeva or Wickerbough Elder, Hero of Bladehold.... you get the idea.
This is one reason why FTK is great: It kills almost any non-finisher-creature in cube.
The second reason is that removal on an offensive body is one of the biggest tempo swings you can get. It's the reason why Aether Adept and friends are so good. Substracting board presence from your opponent while adding to your own is a huge step in winning the race. FTK outright kills a guy and is not just a 2/2... it's a 4/2 which means that it can kill twice as fast as the blue bounce guys.
The third reason why FTK is so great is its cost: 3R. This means it is both splashable and is cheap enough to go into any type of deck: Aggro, midrange and control. He is an auto-include into every red deck ever, while some of the other red 4-drops might not make it into more controlish decks. And even if you aren't red to begin with, you should seriously consider splashing for FTK.
I think Champion and Hellrider is too close to call as I think both are just fantastic at closing games out. In anything remotely resembling midrange/control though FTK shoot straight to the top (still great in aggro, I just find it less important than the premium hasters there).
I run all of the cards in the OP plus Goblin Ruinblaster (which I'm less sure about as time goes on) and I'm also running Archwing Dragon which has been surprisingly good here. Mana sinks are generally bad in Cube but dodging all sorcery speed removal is really awesome for this dragon. My experience has been if your opponent has an answer then they'll kill the dragon immediately. If not then you'll win the game. Very rarely does the dragon get killed after getting cast multiple times. The 4 CC slot in red is insanely tight but I would test Archwing Dragon at 450 or higher.
Hellrider is definitely one of my favorite 4-drops in red. FTK is probably "better" but Hellrider's ability to deal a ton of damage out of nowhere is just awesome. Also killing opposing planeswalkers while attacking the player is something that shouldn't be ignored.
I think FTK's days as obvious #1 red 4-drop has passed, at least for me.
I think red's best decks are the aggro-based ones, and in those decks I'd rather run Keldon Champion or Hellrider.
FTK's still better in control and midrange decks, though, and is insane with Kiki-Jiki (although Champion is still possibly better).
But if in pack 1 pick 1 I took Sulfuric Vortex and the pack I'm passed has both Champion and FTK, I'm taking Champion every time.
If I'm pack 1 pick 1 and it has both Champion and FTK and I feel I want to draft red, I'd take Champion.
And while I understand the correlation of FTK and AEther Adept, I still think Champion's ability to 6 to the dome the turn it enters the battlefield is better.
In conclusion, FTK doesn't kill a land, doesn't hurt a player, and doesn't have haste. In my red-based aggro deck, that's just not enough to call it the best.
It's still very very good, however, and not close to being cut.
I rank FTK at the top because it's great in every red deck, not just aggressive ones. It has a great cc, kills damn-near every creature in the cube, and leaves you with a 4-mana beater. That's incredible for a splashable 4-drop.
Keldon Champion is dead to me. It was mediocre at best in my old 450 list, and now that Hellrider is out, I don't think I'd ever cube it again. Hellrider is like 10x the creature that card is. And I still like Hero and Koth more in aggro than even the 'Rider.
I rank FTK at the top because it's great in every red deck, not just aggressive ones. It has a great cc, kills damn-near every creature in the cube, and leaves you with a 4-mana beater. That's incredible for a splashable 4-drop.
Keldon Champion is dead to me. It was mediocre at best in my old 450 list, and now that Hellrider is out, I don't think I'd ever cube it again. Hellrider is like 10x the creature that card is. And I still like Hero and Koth more in aggro than even the 'Rider.
All of this. I was a big fan of Champion, but over time he got worse and worse. I wouldn't even call him "6 to the dome" reliably; too many times he'd deal three and have to sit back or attack into a trade (which is good, but not amazing). I wasn't too sorry to cut him. I'd consider bringing Ravenous Baboons back before Keldon Champion and before that I'd probably try out Chandra, the Firebrand.
Keldon Champion is also performing worse for me lately as well. The echo has become very noticable, and outside of Mimic Vat shenanigans and turning on Morbid for a turn, it's a lot harder to justify when you get creatures that perform nearly-as-good or better the turn they are played (Hellrider) and have no upkeep cost.
Flametongue Kavu+Avalanche Riders should be in every list; Goblin Ruinblaster is debatable but Ravenous Baboons is enough worse than the other LD creatures that it sees close to no play.
360: Flametongue Kavu + Avalanche Riders
450: Flametongue Kavu + Avalanche Riders (+Goblin Ruinblaster)
720: 450: Flametongue Kavu + Avalanche Riders +Goblin Ruinblaster (+Ravenous Baboons)
Both cards are basically interchangeable when it comes to their damage output. Hero of Oxid Ridge has the better BCS, but the two toughness makes it a lot easier to kill by spot or mass removal or in combat, while Hellrider doesn't even have to attack itself to get some extra damage in. Both cards perform well against Planeswalkers; Hero of Oxid Ridge because it can get around the 1/1 creatures or tokens that tend to defend your PWs, Hellrider because you can send all your creatures at your opponent now and still get rid of the walker.
360: Hero of Oxid Ridge / Hellrider
450: Hero of Oxid Ridge + Hellrider
720: Hero of Oxid Ridge + Hellrider
Koth of the Hammer is so much harder to get rid of and even comes with haste and alternative applications, that the percentage of cubes that use them is heavily in favor of the Mythic.
360: Koth of the Hammer
450: Koth of the Hammer
720: Koth of the Hammer (+Hound of Griselbrand)
4)Efficient creatures that are "just big" Keldon Champion (while technically an etb creature, it is pretty rare that you see this effect trigger twice, since most of the required cards don't fit that well in an aggressive shell)
Again there is a strong preference towards the haste creatures. Keldon Champion has the advantage of an guaranteed three damage to your opponent and the option to keep it around for an additional attack, while Moltensteel Dragon has the potential to do more damage in one turn and can be cast even if you don't get to four mana.
3 is a high variance card, since it is rather easy to disposes and requires additional mana and/or life payment before it becomes good.
I'm surprised at the lack of support for Chandra, the Firebrand. Copying cube-level instants and sorceries is a very powerful effect, and her 3R cost makes her very splashable. I think it's an easy include at the 720 level, at the very least.
Is Avalanche Riders actually better than Goblin Ruinblaster? In general, for me, Ruinblaster has tended to hit land just as often, but it doesn't have echo. Does the increase in splashability, point of toughness and ability to hit basics make up for echo?
As I was optimizing my red section, I found that I had a lot of candidates for the red 4-drop slot. I figured we might as well have a thread to discuss them, since we seem to constantly be getting more lately.
The ones that are debateable inclusions for me, are Moltensteel Dragon, Goblin Ruinblaster and Hound of Griselbrand (I still run the first two in my cube at 500).
Juju Alters - Altered MTG Cards
As for the rest of them:
Flametongue Kavu
Koth of the Hammer
Avalanche Riders
Hero of Bladehold
Hellrider
Keldon Champion
In that order. I run all but the Champion in my 500.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I think that ranking is pretty good, though I think Kavu and Koth are both better than the other four. Of the other four, I think they are all about equal, better or worse in some situations, though Avalanche Riders is much better if the deck has more LD.
I count Goblin Ruinblaster as a 4-drop. I run him over Champion in my cube because I value land destruction. In a vacuum, Champion is probably the better card.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Koth
Hero/Hellrider
FTK
Avalanche Riders
This is the cutoff of what I run in my 360 so I really can't rank them after that.
I love all of them but I find most of my red decks can just about seal the game if they get to attack with 4 hasty power on turn 4, so FTK is just a little lower than the ones with haste. Having only 2 power makes it tough on Avalanche Riders even if it's effect is crazy strong.
@ Grapefruit21: Sorry, but Flametongue Kavu is the best red 4-drop in cube, hands down.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
When drafting red aggro I would rather have a hasty attacker with 4 power than remove a blocker and have a four power attacker the next turn. I'll admit that FTK is more flexible in terms of what it goes in but I would rather have Koth, Hero, or Hellrider in an aggro deck.
Part of it is that that four damage to a creature is outside red's normal range of damage (2-3) for burn spells, making it a lot more effective against walls like Wall of Omens / Blossoms, random green 4/4's like Yeva or Wickerbough Elder, Hero of Bladehold.... you get the idea.
My Cube Blog @theCubeMiser on Twitter
This is one reason why FTK is great: It kills almost any non-finisher-creature in cube.
The second reason is that removal on an offensive body is one of the biggest tempo swings you can get. It's the reason why Aether Adept and friends are so good. Substracting board presence from your opponent while adding to your own is a huge step in winning the race. FTK outright kills a guy and is not just a 2/2... it's a 4/2 which means that it can kill twice as fast as the blue bounce guys.
The third reason why FTK is so great is its cost: 3R. This means it is both splashable and is cheap enough to go into any type of deck: Aggro, midrange and control. He is an auto-include into every red deck ever, while some of the other red 4-drops might not make it into more controlish decks. And even if you aren't red to begin with, you should seriously consider splashing for FTK.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
1/2. Keldon Champion
1/2. Hellrider
3. Koth of the Hammer
4. Flametongue Kavu
5. Hero of Oxid Ridge
6. Blistering Firecat
7. Avalanche Riders
I think Champion and Hellrider is too close to call as I think both are just fantastic at closing games out. In anything remotely resembling midrange/control though FTK shoot straight to the top (still great in aggro, I just find it less important than the premium hasters there).
(list not current)
My Cube Google Docs Spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AibgWfz0ukmOdDNhOHlucjcxUi1wVy00NDhLbDUtUlE&hl=en_US#gid=8
(list is always current)
Hellrider is definitely one of my favorite 4-drops in red. FTK is probably "better" but Hellrider's ability to deal a ton of damage out of nowhere is just awesome. Also killing opposing planeswalkers while attacking the player is something that shouldn't be ignored.
My 540 card Powered Cube last updated March 2022
3. Hero of Oxid Ridge
5. Blistering Firecat
6. Flametongue Kavu
Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
I think red's best decks are the aggro-based ones, and in those decks I'd rather run Keldon Champion or Hellrider.
FTK's still better in control and midrange decks, though, and is insane with Kiki-Jiki (although Champion is still possibly better).
But if in pack 1 pick 1 I took Sulfuric Vortex and the pack I'm passed has both Champion and FTK, I'm taking Champion every time.
If I'm pack 1 pick 1 and it has both Champion and FTK and I feel I want to draft red, I'd take Champion.
And while I understand the correlation of FTK and AEther Adept, I still think Champion's ability to 6 to the dome the turn it enters the battlefield is better.
In conclusion, FTK doesn't kill a land, doesn't hurt a player, and doesn't have haste. In my red-based aggro deck, that's just not enough to call it the best.
It's still very very good, however, and not close to being cut.
-rexx
Draft my 540 card powered cube here: http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/36935
Keldon Champion is dead to me. It was mediocre at best in my old 450 list, and now that Hellrider is out, I don't think I'd ever cube it again. Hellrider is like 10x the creature that card is. And I still like Hero and Koth more in aggro than even the 'Rider.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
All of this. I was a big fan of Champion, but over time he got worse and worse. I wouldn't even call him "6 to the dome" reliably; too many times he'd deal three and have to sit back or attack into a trade (which is good, but not amazing). I wasn't too sorry to cut him. I'd consider bringing Ravenous Baboons back before Keldon Champion and before that I'd probably try out Chandra, the Firebrand.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Firewing Phoenix too. He didn't make it for me at 320 but he's a good, splashable, recursive high powered flying beater... I like it.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
My Cube Blog @theCubeMiser on Twitter
Everything said here is 100%.
My MUST INCLUDE, and NEVER cut:
Avalanche Riders
Flame Tongue Kavu
Koth of the Hammer
After this:
Hellrider/ Hero of Bladeholt (still not sure which is better)
Past that the only card I'd add would be Goblin Ruinblaster.
http://hgcube.blogspot.com/ (help me Make my Custom CUBE!)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=382498
The "Make a Proxy Thread
Redit Proxy Article "current gallery"
MY LEGACY ALTERS
-rexx
Draft my 540 card powered cube here: http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/36935