This is a great thread, by the way. There has been some discussion of specific cards, roles and numbers (which always depends on cube size, of course). I'd be keen to see something pulling all of this together. For example:
Reanimation Spells: These are the cards that return stuff from your graveyard to play at a discount once you've managed to get them in there.
Reanimation Enablers: These are the cards that get big, game-winning cards into your graveyard for cheap. Some go straight to the graveyard from your library, others pass through your hand.
Other Supporting Cards: These cards tend to work well as additional ways to cheat big finishers into play, given that you're already running these cards. The specific composition of your deck will determine whether each one is good. Choosing them early can help you to shape your deck to make them good.
The Corpse Dance could seem weird that I remove when I want to support reanimator. It's unfortunatly the last card that cares about GY-order and it's removed so I can say to my players that GY-order doesn't matter in my cube.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
There are a few white reanimation effects that deserve mention, although most cubists aren't going to push reanimation in white. In order these are Karmic Guide, Marshal's Anthem, and Miraculous Recovery. I'm not counting Reveillark--that's more card advantage than true reanimation.
Goblin Welder should get mentioned here. If you support both the artifact deck and reanimation, this little guy should do some great work for you.
Reanimation Enablers: These are the cards that get big, game-winning cards into your graveyard for cheap. Some go straight to the graveyard from your library, others pass through your hand.
Other Supporting Cards: These cards tend to work well as additional ways to cheat big finishers into play, given that you're already running these cards. The specific composition of your deck will determine whether each one is good. Choosing them early can help you to shape your deck to make them good.
Reanimation Enablers: These are the cards that get big, game-winning cards into your graveyard for cheap. Some go straight to the graveyard from your library, others pass through your hand.
Other Supporting Cards: These cards tend to work well as additional ways to cheat big finishers into play, given that you're already running these cards. The specific composition of your deck will determine whether each one is good. Choosing them early can help you to shape your deck to make them good.
I like this idea a lot, Amadeus. I hope adding in my thoughts wasn't too bold of me.
Not in the least. I think you used exactly the right amount of bold. (Ok, puns aren't my strong suit :embarrass:).
This is exactly what I'd hoped would happen - I didn't spend too long trying to perfect the rankings because I wanted to get the structure in place and get feedback.
@JeffDerek: Thanks for the additional updates. (Also saved me needing to make the rantipole's changes :)).
Any thoughts on numbers by cube size? I know that's a bit tricky, but some people already running this theme in their cube might be able to provide anecdotal evidence. Otherwise, I might be forced into a mathematical analysis, and nobody wants that. ;P
Once you've bolstered your support for reanimator, do you feel that you need any dedicated graveyard hate in your cube such as Relic of Progenitus or other?
I'm still trying to figure that out. I did add Stonecloaker when I did this big update, and he goes with Scavenging Ooze and Nezumi Graverobber as far as maindeckable graveyard hate goes.
I'm not convinced sideboarding would really happen much in my playgroup, even if dedicated sideboard cards existed. What other maindeckable grave hate spells are good enough for cube?
Reanimator has enough problems as is, it doesn't need help hosing it.
This. Plus, cards that are solely 'yard hate are not going to be drafted highly or maindecked. Nezumi Graverobber and other 'yard hate on bodies are good enough. Some of those reanimator spells can also serve as 'yard hate of a sort--have you ever had your about-to-be Animate Deaded TerastodonNecromancyed out from under you? Good times.
I agree with Blimpy. There aren't that many re-animation targets with hexproof or shroud. You don't really need specific graveyard hate. Bounce and good removal is the bane of the re-animator.
Some of those reanimator spells can also serve as 'yard hate of a sort--have you ever had your about-to-be Animate Deaded TerastodonNecromancyed out from under you? Good times.
Cheers,
rant
Worse, I had a Wurmcoil Engine stolen out from my clutches with Necromancy. Cursed instant speed reanimation.
I'd also go the "incidental grave hate" route. Probably not for regular cubes, but for peasant cubes, Vessel of Endless Rest seems interesting to me. Manalith, while unexciting, is not exactly bad and randomly hosing Lingering Souls, Chainer's Edict or Pelakka Wurm reanimation is not too shabby I guess.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
1) Reanimate - Cheapest, hits any graveyard
2) Recurring Nightmare - Super reusability and still relatively cheap cost makes this awesome
3) Necromancy - Utmost in versatility. It's pretty cheap, hits any graveyard, and can be used at instant speed in a pinch
4) Animate Dead - Very cheap, hits any graveyard, minimal drawback
5) Exhume - Still cheap, but only hits your graveyard and has a drawback that gets increasingly bad as the game goes on
6) Makeshift Mannequin - 4 is "average" cost for a reanimator (see Zombify). This one picks up a slight drawback in exchange for the very useful instant speed
7) Corpse Dance - Requires a bit more finagling, but can be incredibly powerful, being both instant speed and potentially re-usable. Also, granting haste is very good.
8) Dance of the Dead - Another very cheap, any graveyard option, but the untap cost is a little bit of a pain. Best with things that don't necessarily need to swing to do their job, like Jin Gitaxias
9) Diabolic Servitude - It's a Zombify that exiles when the thing dies but lets you recast it. Not great, but decent.
10) Life//Death - Another 2 mana option. Only hits your graveyard and has Reanimate's drawback, but its cheapness makes it worth considering.
1) Recurring Nightmare - Just a disgusting card; worth building an entire deck around.
2) Animate Dead - Hits both yards, no life drawback, and only 2 mana.
3) Necromancy - Same as above, but it can be played as an instant for trickery, but costs 3 mana.
4) Reanimate - One mana Reanimation is really strong, and this hits both yards. The life drawback makes it harder to use outside of dedicated reanimator though.
5) Exhume - Perhaps the best reanimation spell for straight-up reanimation builds.
6) Dance of the Dead - 2cc reanimation with an added bonus and an added drawback. Hits both yards for 2 mana though.
7) Living Death - Expensive, but super powerful. As a wrath effect, it's passable. As a reanimation spell, it's decent. But when it plays both roles at the same time, it's completely insane.
8) Life // Death - It's cheap reanimation, and the Life side has a lot of cool uses on its own.
9) Diabolic Servitude - 4 mana is a lot for reanimation, but it's my favorite one because it can be re-used.
..........
10) Makeshift Mannequin - A fine spell, the instant speed makes it cool, but the Mannequin counter is really frustrating against a lot of cards.
There are a lot of other options out there, but for black, these are my 10 favorite. I push reanimator pretty hard in my 450, and I include the top 9 cards. In a 720, you'd want all 10 and some more too, if you really wanna make it work as an archetype and not just as a supporting player.
I guess, but the problem with reanimator in an all-common cube is that you lose the best fatties. Most of the sweet rare-cube fatties have some sort of resiliency or value when they get killed, but Ulamog's Crusher will get doom bladed pretty often and that's the only fatty i can imagine being THAT good.
I actually kind of like Stampede Driver and Lands Edge.
None of these does a lot more than letting you discard a card. I'd rather have Raven's Crime, looters, looting effects, Entomb, Waterfront Bouncer, Survival and Fauna Shaman, Oona's Prowler, or even Liliana 2.0 as discard outlets. I know you just wanted to list the "next best" cards, but I think there are enough cards that are actually playable that do that.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
I don't know if this has been asked yet, but what do you guys feel the right number of reanimation spells (inc. things like Puppeteer Clique) for a 360 cube?
It depends on how hard you wanna push the archetype. I'd add in the staples, and then increase that number based on how many are needed to make it successful. It depends a lot on how highly the players value the better reanimation spells in non-reanimator black decks; so it's playgroup dependent.
I think reanimator should be expanded to a "cheat a fatty into play" archetype, so we could be thinking somewhere along cards like Show and Tell, Natural Order, Sneak Attack all help.
Reanimation Spells: These are the cards that return stuff from your graveyard to play at a discount once you've managed to get them in there.
Top Choices (in order): Reanimate, Animate Dead, Recurring Nightmare, Necromancy, Diabolic Servitude, Exhume, Dance of the Dead, Life//Death, Living Death, Makeshift Mannequin, Zombify, Unburial Rites, Profane Command
Approximate Numbers Needed by Cube Size:
360 -
450 -
540 -
630 -
720 -
810 -
900+ -
Reanimation Enablers: These are the cards that get big, game-winning cards into your graveyard for cheap. Some go straight to the graveyard from your library, others pass through your hand.
Top Choices (in order, by colour):
:symg:: Suvival of the Fittest, Fauna Shaman, Wild Mongrel
:symb:: Entomb, Liliana of the Veil, Oona's Prowler
:symu:: Looter il-Kor, Thirst for Knowledge, Compulsive Research, Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction?, Intuition, Forbidden Alchemy, Waterfront Bouncer, Aquamoeba
:symr:: Faithless Looting, Wheel of Fortune
Approximate Numbers Needed by Cube Size:
Reanimation Targets: These are great cards to reanimate / cheat into play for cheap.
Top Choices (in order, by colour):
:symg:: Woodfall Primus, Terastodon, Pelakka Wurm, Moldgraf Monstrosity, Hornet Queen, Primeval Titan,Krosan Tusker?
:symr:: Bogardan Hellkite, Inferno Titan
:symu:: Inkwell Leviathan, Frost Titan
:symw:: , Eternal Dragon, Akroma, Angel of Wrath, Sun Titan
:symb:: Grave Titan, Griselbrand, Sheoldred, Whispering One
:0mana:: Sundering Titan, Myr Battlesphere, Wurmcoil Engine
Gold: Simic Sky Swallower
Approximate Numbers Needed by Cube Size:
Other Supporting Cards: These cards tend to work well as additional ways to cheat big finishers into play, given that you're already running these cards. The specific composition of your deck will determine whether each one is good. Choosing them early can help you to shape your deck to make them good.
Tinker
Show and Tell
Dream Halls
Natural Order
Obviously, the order isn't correct but I'd be keen to update with the appropriate information.
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I'm about to make the following change and test it out:
IN
The two last, just because I haven't acquired them yet.
OUT
The Corpse Dance could seem weird that I remove when I want to support reanimator. It's unfortunatly the last card that cares about GY-order and it's removed so I can say to my players that GY-order doesn't matter in my cube.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Reanimation Spells: These are the cards that return stuff from your graveyard to play at a discount once you've managed to get them in there.
Top Choices (in order): Reanimate, Animate Dead, Recurring Nightmare, Necromancy, Diabolic Servitude, Exhume, Dance of the Dead, Life//Death, Living Death, Makeshift Mannequin, Zombify, Unburial Rites, Profane Command I rank Makeshift Mannequin a little higher. Instant reanimation is a very rare effect.
There are a few white reanimation effects that deserve mention, although most cubists aren't going to push reanimation in white. In order these are Karmic Guide, Marshal's Anthem, and Miraculous Recovery. I'm not counting Reveillark--that's more card advantage than true reanimation.
Goblin Welder should get mentioned here. If you support both the artifact deck and reanimation, this little guy should do some great work for you.
Approximate Numbers Needed by Cube Size:
360 -
450 -
540 -
630 -
720 -
810 -
900+ -
Reanimation Enablers: These are the cards that get big, game-winning cards into your graveyard for cheap. Some go straight to the graveyard from your library, others pass through your hand.
Top Choices (in order, by colour):
:symg:: Suvival of the Fittest, Fauna Shaman, Wild Mongrel
:symb:: Entomb, Liliana of the Veil, Oona's Prowler, Zombie Infestation, Putrid Imp, Small Pox
:symu:: Looter il-Kor, Thirst for Knowledge, Compulsive Research, Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction?, Intuition, Forbidden Alchemy, Waterfront Bouncer, Aquamoeba, Enclave Cryptologist
:symr:: Faithless Looting, Wheel of Fortune
Land: Desolate Lighthouse
Approximate Numbers Needed by Cube Size:
Reanimation Targets: These are great cards to reanimate / cheat into play for cheap.
Top Choices (in order, by colour):
:symg:: Woodfall Primus, Terastodon, Pelakka Wurm, Moldgraf Monstrosity, Hornet Queen, Primeval Titan,Krosan Tusker? As a reanimator target, I like Hornet Queen more than anything aside from Primus and Terastodon.
:symr:: Bogardan Hellkite, Inferno Titan, Crater Hellion
:symu:: Inkwell Leviathan, Frost Titan, Sphinx of Jwar Isle
:symw:: Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Eternal Dragon, Akroma, Angel of Wrath, Sun Titan
:symb:: Grave Titan, Griselbrand, Sheoldred, Whispering One, Kokusho, the Evening Star (which I like more than Sheoldred), Massacre Wurm
:0mana:: Sundering Titan, Myr Battlesphere, Wurmcoil Engine
Gold: Simic Sky Swallower, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Hellkite Overlord
Approximate Numbers Needed by Cube Size:
Other Supporting Cards: These cards tend to work well as additional ways to cheat big finishers into play, given that you're already running these cards. The specific composition of your deck will determine whether each one is good. Choosing them early can help you to shape your deck to make them good.
Tinker
Show and Tell
Dream Halls
Natural Order
I like this idea a lot, Amadeus. I hope adding in my thoughts wasn't too bold of me.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Reanimation Spells: These are the cards that return stuff from your graveyard to play at a discount once you've managed to get them in there.
Top Choices (in order):
Black
Reanimate, Animate Dead, Recurring Nightmare, Necromancy, Makeshift Mannequin, Diabolic Servitude, Exhume, Dance of the Dead, Life//Death, Living Death, Zombify, Unburial Rites, Profane Command
White
Karmic Guide, Marshal's Anthem, and Miraculous Recovery. I'm not counting Reveillark--that's more card advantage than true reanimation.
Red
Goblin Welder should get mentioned here. If you support both the artifact deck and reanimation, this little guy should do some great work for you.
Approximate Numbers Needed by Cube Size:
360 -
450 -
540 -
630 -
720 -
810 -
900+ -
Reanimation Enablers: These are the cards that get big, game-winning cards into your graveyard for cheap. Some go straight to the graveyard from your library, others pass through your hand.
Top Choices (in order, by colour):
: Suvival of the Fittest, Fauna Shaman, Wild Mongrel
: Entomb, Liliana of the Veil, Oona's Prowler, Zombie Infestation, Putrid Imp, Small Pox, Undead Gladiator
: Looter il-Kor, Thirst for Knowledge, Compulsive Research, Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction?, Intuition, Forbidden Alchemy, Waterfront Bouncer, Aquamoeba, Enclave Cryptologist, Forbid
: Faithless Looting, Wheel of Fortune
Gold : Psychatog
Colorless : Masticore, Molten-Tail Masticore, Razormane Masticore
Land: Desolate Lighthouse
Approximate Numbers Needed by Cube Size:
Reanimation Targets: These are great cards to reanimate / cheat into play for cheap.
Top Choices (in order, by colour):
:symg:: Woodfall Primus, Terastodon, Hornet Queen, Pelakka Wurm, Moldgraf Monstrosity, Primeval Titan,Krosan Tusker?
:symr:: Bogardan Hellkite, Inferno Titan, Crater Hellion
:symu:: Inkwell Leviathan, Frost Titan, Sphinx of Jwar Isle
:symw:: Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Eternal Dragon, Akroma, Angel of Wrath, Sun Titan
:symb:: Grave Titan, Griselbrand, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Sheoldred, Whispering One, Massacre Wurm
:0mana:: Sundering Titan, Myr Battlesphere, Wurmcoil Engine
Gold: Simic Sky Swallower, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Hellkite Overlord
Approximate Numbers Needed by Cube Size:
Other Supporting Cards: These cards tend to work well as additional ways to cheat big finishers into play, given that you're already running these cards. The specific composition of your deck will determine whether each one is good. Choosing them early can help you to shape your deck to make them good.
Tinker
Show and Tell
Dream Halls
Natural Order
Sneak Attack
Tooth and Nail
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
Not in the least. I think you used exactly the right amount of bold. (Ok, puns aren't my strong suit :embarrass:).
This is exactly what I'd hoped would happen - I didn't spend too long trying to perfect the rankings because I wanted to get the structure in place and get feedback.
@JeffDerek: Thanks for the additional updates. (Also saved me needing to make the rantipole's changes :)).
Any thoughts on numbers by cube size? I know that's a bit tricky, but some people already running this theme in their cube might be able to provide anecdotal evidence. Otherwise, I might be forced into a mathematical analysis, and nobody wants that. ;P
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I'm not convinced sideboarding would really happen much in my playgroup, even if dedicated sideboard cards existed. What other maindeckable grave hate spells are good enough for cube?
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I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
This. Plus, cards that are solely 'yard hate are not going to be drafted highly or maindecked. Nezumi Graverobber and other 'yard hate on bodies are good enough. Some of those reanimator spells can also serve as 'yard hate of a sort--have you ever had your about-to-be Animate Deaded Terastodon Necromancyed out from under you? Good times.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Worse, I had a Wurmcoil Engine stolen out from my clutches with Necromancy. Cursed instant speed reanimation.
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450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
This old Reanimator thread has been merged into the main one, up until this post.
We probably need archetype discussion to be tracked in a sticky. Here is the main thread Supporting Reanimator
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MY LEGACY ALTERS
1) Reanimate - Cheapest, hits any graveyard
2) Recurring Nightmare - Super reusability and still relatively cheap cost makes this awesome
3) Necromancy - Utmost in versatility. It's pretty cheap, hits any graveyard, and can be used at instant speed in a pinch
4) Animate Dead - Very cheap, hits any graveyard, minimal drawback
5) Exhume - Still cheap, but only hits your graveyard and has a drawback that gets increasingly bad as the game goes on
6) Makeshift Mannequin - 4 is "average" cost for a reanimator (see Zombify). This one picks up a slight drawback in exchange for the very useful instant speed
7) Corpse Dance - Requires a bit more finagling, but can be incredibly powerful, being both instant speed and potentially re-usable. Also, granting haste is very good.
8) Dance of the Dead - Another very cheap, any graveyard option, but the untap cost is a little bit of a pain. Best with things that don't necessarily need to swing to do their job, like Jin Gitaxias
9) Diabolic Servitude - It's a Zombify that exiles when the thing dies but lets you recast it. Not great, but decent.
10) Life//Death - Another 2 mana option. Only hits your graveyard and has Reanimate's drawback, but its cheapness makes it worth considering.
Other options include Unburial Rites, Dread Return, Karmic Guide, Body Double, Beacon of Unrest, probably a few others I'm forgetting. Strands of Night, maybe?
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2) Animate Dead - Hits both yards, no life drawback, and only 2 mana.
3) Necromancy - Same as above, but it can be played as an instant for trickery, but costs 3 mana.
4) Reanimate - One mana Reanimation is really strong, and this hits both yards. The life drawback makes it harder to use outside of dedicated reanimator though.
5) Exhume - Perhaps the best reanimation spell for straight-up reanimation builds.
6) Dance of the Dead - 2cc reanimation with an added bonus and an added drawback. Hits both yards for 2 mana though.
7) Living Death - Expensive, but super powerful. As a wrath effect, it's passable. As a reanimation spell, it's decent. But when it plays both roles at the same time, it's completely insane.
8) Life // Death - It's cheap reanimation, and the Life side has a lot of cool uses on its own.
9) Diabolic Servitude - 4 mana is a lot for reanimation, but it's my favorite one because it can be re-used.
..........
10) Makeshift Mannequin - A fine spell, the instant speed makes it cool, but the Mannequin counter is really frustrating against a lot of cards.
There are a lot of other options out there, but for black, these are my 10 favorite. I push reanimator pretty hard in my 450, and I include the top 9 cards. In a 720, you'd want all 10 and some more too, if you really wanna make it work as an archetype and not just as a supporting player.
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I actually kind of like Stampede Driver and Lands Edge.
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None of these does a lot more than letting you discard a card. I'd rather have Raven's Crime, looters, looting effects, Entomb, Waterfront Bouncer, Survival and Fauna Shaman, Oona's Prowler, or even Liliana 2.0 as discard outlets. I know you just wanted to list the "next best" cards, but I think there are enough cards that are actually playable that do that.
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
Updated 11/01/13
-->Standard:
:symwg::symwg::symwg: Aggressive Midrange
:symu::symu::symu: Devotion
-->Modern:
:symwg::symrg::symug: Kiki-Jiki Pod
:0mana::symur::0mana: Affinity
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Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay