Every time someone tried to aggressively use him, they got blown out, and every time someone had to play him on like 5 and make another one they were real far behind. He just wasn't good.
these explanations don't make much sense to me. how were they "blown out" when they used him aggressively? what is it about the card that made it easier for them to lose than if they just curved out with separate aggressive cards? and playing a card when you're "real far behind" and losing doesn't seem to speak to the value of the card, especially a two drop. what two drop do you play when you're far behind that wins you the game?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
these explanations don't make much sense to me. how were they "blown out" when they used him aggressively? what is it about the card that made it easier for them to lose than if they just curved out with separate aggressive cards? and playing a card when you're "real far behind" and losing doesn't seem to speak to the value of the card, especially a two drop. what two drop do you play when you're far behind that wins you the game?
these explanations don't make much sense to me. how were they "blown out" when they used him aggressively? what is it about the card that made it easier for them to lose than if they just curved out with separate aggressive cards? and playing a card when you're "real far behind" and losing doesn't seem to speak to the value of the card, especially a two drop. what two drop do you play when you're far behind that wins you the game?
If my two drops suck on 2 then I want them to be decent rips in the late game. Using him aggressively sucked because wrath was a blowout against control and removal spells made combat impossible against aggro decks. The guys you're making off the rats are only on curve against other cube cards on about the third activation, and that means your opponent isn't reacting to what you're doing at all. The only time I can see this guy being good is against weak opposition who can't tell how the board/game state is developing and work to counteract it. I guess he's a good pluck in the games where both players are mana flooded for a while, but those situations are not the only spot where I want my two drop to be ok
Just wanted to say that I recently added Smallpox to my cube and it's been very solid so far. I may try some of the other cards proposed here based on Smallpox's huge success.
I'd rather just run black aggro which I find to be the joint best aggro archetype particularly in smaller cubes. The mana denial package is cute but requires a critical mass of such cards within one deck, whereas I can drift into other colours for aggro, after I'm primarily drawn into aggro by either black or white. Land denial black would be a good archetype to push in midsize cubes with large groups, where it'd be possible to assemble all the pieces with a minimum of drafting by other players.
Though the hivemind of MTGS has told me time and time again that Oona's Prowler and Nantuko Shade were good cards but we haven't seen them do much damage. They're easy cuts for my group.
Oona's Prowler can be used in aggressive strategies OR reanimator as an enabler. I definitely wouldn't cut it. Nantuko Shade is disposable in small cubes.
Nantuko Shade isn't near the block at 320 personally. He wins combats or deters blocking for cheap or no mana, respectively. The cost is probably really suboptimal if you're not running other black aggro cards, though. I'm less sold on Oona's Prowler but it is good enough in multiple archetypes for me to keep.
I actually just cut Nantuko Shade from my cube because of the success of the monoblack pox archetype, which seems ridiculous.
We found through a lot of testing and observation that the monoblack deck in my cube spends it's mana very efficiently and sacrifices it's lands pretty regularly to smallpox, braids, smokestack, etc. Even though it's monoblack, it doesn't have a lot of mana available for things.
It was really odd for me to cut Nantuko Shade after I added Necropotence and Geralf's Messenger, I would've thought the monoblack deck would've gotten better, but it just doesn't fit the archetype we're pushing here. So yea, testing and experimentation over what works on paper is kinda useful.
That said, Shade is still good and many cubes should be running it, but you may find you've built your section in such a way that he's suboptimal for you.
Prowler on the other hand, is freaking amazing and I don't know what's wrong that he isn't working for you. If your opponent is discarding a card each turn, he's a mini Hippie, 1/1 flying for 1B that your opponent has to discard a card of their choice each time he attacks. That seems good to me.
I actually just cut Nantuko Shade from my cube because of the success of the monoblack pox archetype, which seems ridiculous.
We found through a lot of testing and observation that the monoblack deck in my cube spends it's mana very efficiently and sacrifices it's lands pretty regularly to smallpox, braids, smokestack, etc. Even though it's monoblack, it doesn't have a lot of mana available for things.
It was really odd for me to cut Nantuko Shade after I added Necropotence and Geralf's Messenger, I would've thought the monoblack deck would've gotten better, but it just doesn't fit the archetype we're pushing here. So yea, testing and experimentation over what works on paper is kinda useful.
That said, Shade is still good and many cubes should be running it, but you may find you've built your section in such a way that he's suboptimal for you.
Prowler on the other hand, is freaking amazing and I don't know what's wrong that he isn't working for you. If your opponent is discarding a card each turn, he's a mini Hippie, 1/1 flying for 1B that your opponent has to discard a card of their choice each time he attacks. That seems good to me.
This is another very very good post. And yeah, there are a number of very efficient and good ways to take black. I'd much rather use the monoblack support with smallpox/land denial or fast, disruptive, aggressive strategies than a sort of faceless control/midrange amalgam.
And a black deck ending up with all of its lands in the graveyard... seems somehow flavourful. It's a matter of time before I get Pack Rat with its buddies Braids, Crucible, Stack and Loam together in a deck. Dead lands ho!
Hymn to Tourach - Not good in black aggro because it doesn't affect the board, sure it sometimes gets you free wins but it's hard as heck to cast unless its all you're doing for a turn.
Necropotence - What deck wants this? Would be good if we could sacrifice it somehow but no black cards do that. I'm not convinced it's a great card for cube.
Disciple of Bolas - It's quite expensive and black isn't know for its huge creatures. I'm under the impression that you gotta hit for at least three to make it worthwhile. Lifegain is really important for black strategies though.
Inquisition of Kozilek - Black wants hand disruption like green wants their mana dorks. Sure there isn't much out there besides Duress and Thoughtseize but Inquisition seems pretty good. It hits a lot of the key cards that black has a hard time dealing with, plus they'll be able to cast most of their spells that cost 3 or less against black LD. I hope we get some more Duress effects but this will do for now.
Sewer Nemesis - He has impressed me before but got cut because it never shined in midrange or control like the other fatties, now that my cube is trying out the black LD, this guy seems sweet. Four mana is about where your curve needs to stop in these strategies.
Abyssal Persecutor - Big, flying, and a great Smallpox target (and the likes). Easily dismissed before adding the LD package but a house with it in. I haven't seen him in many lists supporting the LD package, I think we just have forgotten about him.
Prowler on the other hand, is freaking amazing and I don't know what's wrong that he isn't working for you. If your opponent is discarding a card each turn, he's a mini Hippie, 1/1 flying for 1B that your opponent has to discard a card of their choice each time he attacks. That seems good to me.
We found that hand disruption in black isn't good unless you had control over it (thoughtseize, duress, etc). A mini Hippie sounds really good but a lot of the time my opponent either blew me out with reanimator discard on my Prowler (of course I sided it out but it happened about four times leaving an awful taste in my mouth), or I couldn't effectively race my opponent with my 1/1 flier, or he could trade a card and his 1/1 flier. The worst is when you have a sword you need to get in but they have a fist full of cards and a flier, has happened to me twice. So many bad memories with Prowler.
At one point I mentioned how I cut Prowler and about five posters on MTGS said I shouldn't have, which made me want to add it back in. I ended up readding Prowler, drafting it, and then proceeded to get man handled by my friend's reanimator deck, and later my friend's control deck, all for the same reasons I posted above. Cut it that night.
I've had success with Prowler before, but only a couple of games, it's just not a card my group or I like.
Oona's Prowler can be used in aggressive strategies OR reanimator as an enabler. I definitely wouldn't cut it. Nantuko Shade is disposable in small cubes.
It was never great in either for us, plus we got Pack Rats and Troll as a replacement from RtR.
I'd rather just run black aggro which I find to be the joint best aggro archetype particularly in smaller cubes. The mana denial package is cute but requires a critical mass of such cards within one deck, whereas I can drift into other colours for aggro, after I'm primarily drawn into aggro by either black or white. Land denial black would be a good archetype to push in midsize cubes with large groups, where it'd be possible to assemble all the pieces with a minimum of drafting by other players.
The LD package isn't for every cube, especially those who are having success in the black aggro department, but I assure you that you don't need a critical mass of these cards to have a good deck. If I end up with about three then I'm happy.
I hear people saying that you can't support this strategy and black aggro strategy at the same time in smaller cubes. Why is that? LD seems like it fits with aggro better than any other strategy aside from prison.
I would disagree with those people. My cube is a 450 and runs black aggro, black staxx, and reanimator. You'd have to back off on the reanimator commitment in order to play both staxx and black aggro in 360, but that's not a huge deal.
My opinions on cards that were asked about. Hymn to Tourach: Very strong two cards for two mana is a great deal. Yes it's mana cost is a little rough but it's very strong and can get free wins.
Necropotence: I'm not a huge fan of it in cube because I don't think it's strong enough for most cubes. The mana cost hurts but the actual big draw back is losing your draw steps. Unless you're ahead drawing 7 and losing 7 life isn't enough to get you there, and now every time you want a card it costs life.
Disciple of Bolas: Has been a huge hit in our cube. Midrange decks love it, and that's the main black archetype that we push. Is absolutely insane in a deck that has strong recursive elements. Also is best friends with Reveillark.
Inquisition of Kozilek: I consider this a staple. Having a critical mass of turn 1 hand disruption is very important.
Abyssal Persecutor: Needs such a specific deck as I wouldn't run it with less than 3 ways to remove it and wouldn't feel comfortable without 5. Don't think I'd run it.
[/QUOTE]
I find this a very interesting archtype. Giving black stax and reanimator effects seems to be a reat way to give it a nice identity. It already fits well with staple edics and two-for-one Nekrataals.
I have nothing yet to add to the thread but will really try to find a Smokestack and Small Pox and add it in my 450.
BBB cards are great but needs 4 filter lands and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to work, right? Not sure if they can fit in 450.
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is a great fixer, I'm looking to add it to my list too. I'm just not sure where it can squeeze in.
I'm not sure if you need that much fixing, I'm running 4 lands per guild and have had drafts where Geralf's Messenger and Pox were able to be cast by turn 4 and turn 3 on each and every game.
BBB cards are great but needs 4 filter lands and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to work, right? Not sure if they can fit in 450.
I don't think this is the case. In my 450 I only run the WB filter land (as W/B is the color pair that wants filtering more than anything else), and I don't run Urborg, and I've consistently seen Necropotence and Geralf's Messenger played in 2 and 3 color decks with success.
I'd highly recommend you just put them in (and maybe Pox too if you want to try it) and do some drafts. If they don't work out, you've really lost nothing.
In fact, in general I recommend that people just put cards in and try them. I hear people all the time talking about how something just can't be done (Can't play BBB cards, can't make Channel be fun, etc. etc.) without testing. I so often just throw weird ideas in the cube, and sometimes they work out awesome. Sometimes they fall flat on their face. I cut those cards and don't go back to them. Just give weird ideas a shot, sometimes you'll get an awesome deck.
I don't think this is the case. In my 450 I only run the WB filter land (as W/B is the color pair that wants filtering more than anything else), and I don't run Urborg, and I've consistently seen Necropotence and Geralf's Messenger played in 2 and 3 color decks with success.
I'd highly recommend you just put them in (and maybe Pox too if you want to try it) and do some drafts. If they don't work out, you've really lost nothing.
In fact, in general I recommend that people just put cards in and try them. I hear people all the time talking about how something just can't be done (Can't play BBB cards, can't make Channel be fun, etc. etc.) without testing. I so often just throw weird ideas in the cube, and sometimes they work out awesome. Sometimes they fall flat on their face. I cut those cards and don't go back to them. Just give weird ideas a shot, sometimes you'll get an awesome deck.
Changing cards is part of the fun. I've been greatly surprised by cards I never thought to try initially.
I played against a deck playing necro last night, Yes I won each game but without it there would never have even been a question that I would have won. 9 cards in a few turns can seal the game very quickly.
In the 6 months that Necro was back in my cube it was great, though. We were hamstrung by the majority 2-player Winston drafting, though. It is extremely difficult, nigh impossible, to draft an actual monocolour deck with two players, short of snap-picking every semi-playable artifact. It's a shame because I loved Messenger and Necro, both are brilliant cards.
Hymn to Tourach - Not good in black aggro because it doesn't affect the board, sure it sometimes gets you free wins but it's hard as heck to cast unless its all you're doing for a turn.
These two cards are INCREDIBLY powerfull. Their disadvantage is their difficult casting cost.
Any deck that can support Hymn manawise, will play it if it has room for it. Some decks are to focused to include powerfull, but non synergistic cards. I will play this in black aggro, black midrange and black control if I can. There are few cards as good as a turn 2 Hymn. Just listen to the moans of your opponents.
Necro is a very hard card to intuitively get. Were you their when Necro ruled the tournament scene? That period in time showed how impressive a Necro deck can be.
Necro has a harder time in cube though. The casting cost is very restrictive, life gain is rarer (but getting more and more support) and there is more chance of your deck not being cutthroat enough to offset the damage done. Nevertheless, it was still pretty good when we played it when our cube was bigger (530+). A thing to remember is that you do not need to have the BBB turn 3. You want to play this when your hand is emptied a bit, so turn 4 or 5 is still ok. This means Necro doesn't need a mono black deck, but a two colour deck with a good mana base will support it too.
these explanations don't make much sense to me. how were they "blown out" when they used him aggressively? what is it about the card that made it easier for them to lose than if they just curved out with separate aggressive cards? and playing a card when you're "real far behind" and losing doesn't seem to speak to the value of the card, especially a two drop. what two drop do you play when you're far behind that wins you the game?
I can only think of one. Balance.
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That card does do those things I've heard.
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If my two drops suck on 2 then I want them to be decent rips in the late game. Using him aggressively sucked because wrath was a blowout against control and removal spells made combat impossible against aggro decks. The guys you're making off the rats are only on curve against other cube cards on about the third activation, and that means your opponent isn't reacting to what you're doing at all. The only time I can see this guy being good is against weak opposition who can't tell how the board/game state is developing and work to counteract it. I guess he's a good pluck in the games where both players are mana flooded for a while, but those situations are not the only spot where I want my two drop to be ok
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Oona's Prowler can be used in aggressive strategies OR reanimator as an enabler. I definitely wouldn't cut it. Nantuko Shade is disposable in small cubes.
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We found through a lot of testing and observation that the monoblack deck in my cube spends it's mana very efficiently and sacrifices it's lands pretty regularly to smallpox, braids, smokestack, etc. Even though it's monoblack, it doesn't have a lot of mana available for things.
It was really odd for me to cut Nantuko Shade after I added Necropotence and Geralf's Messenger, I would've thought the monoblack deck would've gotten better, but it just doesn't fit the archetype we're pushing here. So yea, testing and experimentation over what works on paper is kinda useful.
That said, Shade is still good and many cubes should be running it, but you may find you've built your section in such a way that he's suboptimal for you.
Prowler on the other hand, is freaking amazing and I don't know what's wrong that he isn't working for you. If your opponent is discarding a card each turn, he's a mini Hippie, 1/1 flying for 1B that your opponent has to discard a card of their choice each time he attacks. That seems good to me.
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This is another very very good post. And yeah, there are a number of very efficient and good ways to take black. I'd much rather use the monoblack support with smallpox/land denial or fast, disruptive, aggressive strategies than a sort of faceless control/midrange amalgam.
And a black deck ending up with all of its lands in the graveyard... seems somehow flavourful. It's a matter of time before I get Pack Rat with its buddies Braids, Crucible, Stack and Loam together in a deck. Dead lands ho!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Hymn to Tourach - Not good in black aggro because it doesn't affect the board, sure it sometimes gets you free wins but it's hard as heck to cast unless its all you're doing for a turn.
Necropotence - What deck wants this? Would be good if we could sacrifice it somehow but no black cards do that. I'm not convinced it's a great card for cube.
Disciple of Bolas - It's quite expensive and black isn't know for its huge creatures. I'm under the impression that you gotta hit for at least three to make it worthwhile. Lifegain is really important for black strategies though.
Inquisition of Kozilek - Black wants hand disruption like green wants their mana dorks. Sure there isn't much out there besides Duress and Thoughtseize but Inquisition seems pretty good. It hits a lot of the key cards that black has a hard time dealing with, plus they'll be able to cast most of their spells that cost 3 or less against black LD. I hope we get some more Duress effects but this will do for now.
Sewer Nemesis - He has impressed me before but got cut because it never shined in midrange or control like the other fatties, now that my cube is trying out the black LD, this guy seems sweet. Four mana is about where your curve needs to stop in these strategies.
Abyssal Persecutor - Big, flying, and a great Smallpox target (and the likes). Easily dismissed before adding the LD package but a house with it in. I haven't seen him in many lists supporting the LD package, I think we just have forgotten about him.
We found that hand disruption in black isn't good unless you had control over it (thoughtseize, duress, etc). A mini Hippie sounds really good but a lot of the time my opponent either blew me out with reanimator discard on my Prowler (of course I sided it out but it happened about four times leaving an awful taste in my mouth), or I couldn't effectively race my opponent with my 1/1 flier, or he could trade a card and his 1/1 flier. The worst is when you have a sword you need to get in but they have a fist full of cards and a flier, has happened to me twice. So many bad memories with Prowler.
At one point I mentioned how I cut Prowler and about five posters on MTGS said I shouldn't have, which made me want to add it back in. I ended up readding Prowler, drafting it, and then proceeded to get man handled by my friend's reanimator deck, and later my friend's control deck, all for the same reasons I posted above. Cut it that night.
I've had success with Prowler before, but only a couple of games, it's just not a card my group or I like.
It was never great in either for us, plus we got Pack Rats and Troll as a replacement from RtR.
The LD package isn't for every cube, especially those who are having success in the black aggro department, but I assure you that you don't need a critical mass of these cards to have a good deck. If I end up with about three then I'm happy.
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Hymn to Tourach: Very strong two cards for two mana is a great deal. Yes it's mana cost is a little rough but it's very strong and can get free wins.
Necropotence: I'm not a huge fan of it in cube because I don't think it's strong enough for most cubes. The mana cost hurts but the actual big draw back is losing your draw steps. Unless you're ahead drawing 7 and losing 7 life isn't enough to get you there, and now every time you want a card it costs life.
Disciple of Bolas: Has been a huge hit in our cube. Midrange decks love it, and that's the main black archetype that we push. Is absolutely insane in a deck that has strong recursive elements. Also is best friends with Reveillark.
Inquisition of Kozilek: I consider this a staple. Having a critical mass of turn 1 hand disruption is very important.
Sewer Nemesis: No experience with it.
Abyssal Persecutor: Needs such a specific deck as I wouldn't run it with less than 3 ways to remove it and wouldn't feel comfortable without 5. Don't think I'd run it.
[/QUOTE]
I have nothing yet to add to the thread but will really try to find a Smokestack and Small Pox and add it in my 450.
BBB cards are great but needs 4 filter lands and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to work, right? Not sure if they can fit in 450.
I'm not sure if you need that much fixing, I'm running 4 lands per guild and have had drafts where Geralf's Messenger and Pox were able to be cast by turn 4 and turn 3 on each and every game.
I don't think this is the case. In my 450 I only run the WB filter land (as W/B is the color pair that wants filtering more than anything else), and I don't run Urborg, and I've consistently seen Necropotence and Geralf's Messenger played in 2 and 3 color decks with success.
I'd highly recommend you just put them in (and maybe Pox too if you want to try it) and do some drafts. If they don't work out, you've really lost nothing.
In fact, in general I recommend that people just put cards in and try them. I hear people all the time talking about how something just can't be done (Can't play BBB cards, can't make Channel be fun, etc. etc.) without testing. I so often just throw weird ideas in the cube, and sometimes they work out awesome. Sometimes they fall flat on their face. I cut those cards and don't go back to them. Just give weird ideas a shot, sometimes you'll get an awesome deck.
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Changing cards is part of the fun. I've been greatly surprised by cards I never thought to try initially.
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Wow, that sucks. Lol.
In the 6 months that Necro was back in my cube it was great, though. We were hamstrung by the majority 2-player Winston drafting, though. It is extremely difficult, nigh impossible, to draft an actual monocolour deck with two players, short of snap-picking every semi-playable artifact. It's a shame because I loved Messenger and Necro, both are brilliant cards.
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These two cards are INCREDIBLY powerfull. Their disadvantage is their difficult casting cost.
Any deck that can support Hymn manawise, will play it if it has room for it. Some decks are to focused to include powerfull, but non synergistic cards. I will play this in black aggro, black midrange and black control if I can. There are few cards as good as a turn 2 Hymn. Just listen to the moans of your opponents.
Necro is a very hard card to intuitively get. Were you their when Necro ruled the tournament scene? That period in time showed how impressive a Necro deck can be.
Necro has a harder time in cube though. The casting cost is very restrictive, life gain is rarer (but getting more and more support) and there is more chance of your deck not being cutthroat enough to offset the damage done. Nevertheless, it was still pretty good when we played it when our cube was bigger (530+). A thing to remember is that you do not need to have the BBB turn 3. You want to play this when your hand is emptied a bit, so turn 4 or 5 is still ok. This means Necro doesn't need a mono black deck, but a two colour deck with a good mana base will support it too.
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