This conversation seems a bit pointless to me. Why are we limiting the green one drops we are talking about to only ones that come into play with two power and only cost exactly one green mana (even if they have an echo of 3)? I rarely call out topics but it seems like the OP really wanted to discuss Ghazbán Ogre, no?
I guess what I am asking is, what are we talking about here, and why?
The ogre was the main card I wanted to discuss. We can talk about EO & Nacatl but they are the best aggro green 1 drops by a wide margin so it seemed pointless to rave about how awesome they are. I was hoping to find one more green 1 drop I could add that wouldn't be terrible. That is what I am talking about here.
I don't think curving out perfectly every turn is required for a good aggressive start, which is the feeling I get from QQ's posts. Sometimes you play a dude, then kill a guy on t2.
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sure, but i'd like to be able to choose whether i do that or not. being forced to play 1cc removal or some other play on turn two whether or not it's optimal is pretty bad. you don't always curve out, but being able to is pretty important in aggro. speed and disruption are your primary weapons and jaguar often prevents you from deploying them effectively.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
But the other alternative might be to not have a 1-drop at all. And Jaguar is better in those cases. That's the difference. It's not that he's better than the other 2-power 1-drops, it's that when we don't have enough aggressive 1-drops, he's better than no 1-drop in aggro.
If my choice is Jaguar + 3-drop, or Grizzly Bears + 3-drop, I know what I'd rather have.
if he's the only one drop you have access to in your first two turns, all you're getting out of him over grizzly bears is an extra 2 damage. two drops in the cube are a lot better than vanilla 2/2s, so that extra damage is probably not worth maindecking him over another two drop. if you don't have enough one drops for an aggro deck to play well, adding jaguar isn't going to fix that in my opinion.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
if he's the only one drop you have access to in your first two turns, all you're getting out of him over grizzly bears is an extra 2 damage. two drops in the cube are a lot better than vanilla 2/2s, so that extra damage is probably not worth maindecking him over another two drop. if you don't have enough one drops for an aggro deck to play well, adding jaguar isn't going to fix that in my opinion.
To be fair, 2 damage is a lot for an aggro deck. There have been plenty of aggro decks that didn't get there because they were short 1 or 2 dmg.
It does feel kinda funny that green doesn't have the best big dumb guy or land battler in any given slot. You'd think green would get more one drops of high caliber. Or at least ones that do something other than help you disregard the 2 drop.
It does feel kinda funny that green doesn't have the best big dumb guy or land battler in any given slot. You'd think green would get more one drops of high caliber. Or at least ones that do something other than help you disregard the 2 drop.
To be fair, I think Experiment a good sign that they are willing to give green 2 power 1 drop from now on. It'll be 1 per set or 1 every two set, but at least they're coming.
To be fair, I think Experiment a good sign that they are willing to give green 2 power 1 drop from now on. It'll be 1 per set or 1 every two set, but at least they're coming.
You might be right mate! I wonder how many cube's green sections are making good use of it though.
I can certainly imagine myself curving out Experiment One, Strangleroot Geist and Boggart Ram-Gang but how often will I be able to put a deck that likes to do that together? I guess zoo will hopefully like it.
speed and disruption are your primary weapons and jaguar often prevents you from deploying them effectively.
Or Jaguar often allows you to do so. Costing 1 mana allows you to play other disruptive spells (the best of which often cost 1 mana as well) in the same turn when you would otherwise have to choose between playing disruption or a threat.
Or Jaguar often allows you to do so. Costing 1 mana allows you to play other disruptive spells (the best of which often cost 1 mana as well) in the same turn when you would otherwise have to choose between playing disruption or a threat.
jaguar doesn't allow anything, it forces your hand. playing a two drop instead of playing jaguar allows you to cast that spell (i assume you mean stuff like duress?) turn one anyway. regular two drops aren't stopping you from casting those spells early.
and for each time when casting lightning bolt is necessary turn two, there will be a time when it's completely detrimental. i don't think "sometimes playing a 1cc spell is necessary on turn 2" is a net positive for jaguar. those times are more than evened out by having to play something subpar (like a manland or a one drop) or nothing at all turn two. if you had the option to pay its mana cost and echo together in one turn, it would be a positive because it would give you options. the fact that it requires a 1cc spell (and the circumstances to use it favorably) at a specific time makes it problematic at least as much as it's beneficial.
To be fair, 2 damage is a lot for an aggro deck. There have been plenty of aggro decks that didn't get there because they were short 1 or 2 dmg.
oh, i completely agree. which is why skipping a 2 drop is incredibly bad in aggro. i'd rather play a 1 drop and follow with a 2 drop than skip one of them because of echo. my point isn't that two damage doesn't matter to aggro, it's that if two extra damage is all you're getting out of jaguar, wouldn't it be better to play a higher impact two drop instead? one that might push through that damage if your opponent has a blocker for your vanilla 2/2? ...in this hypothetical situation where we're playing aggro and completely skipping a turn.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
i'd rather play a 1 drop and follow with a 2 drop than skip one of them because of echo.
As would we all. But sometimes that's not possible, because you don't have enough playable 1-drops.
You're not skipping your second turn. You're spending mana on T1 to give your 2-drop haste. And that's only in situations where you can't use the second mana on T2. Or play something like an ETBT land, a Wasteland/Strip Mine or cast a 1cc spell.
How do you rank Wild Dogs compared to the better aggro 1 drops? My cube is about 400 cards and I'm currently running 3 aggro 1 drops. I already have Experiment One, Wild Nacti, and Wolfbitten Captive.
Green tends to be a splash for aggro decks anyway, and so I'm just running E1 and Wolfbitten Captive as the only 'aggro' one drops. It can get most of the one drops it needs from black, red and white. Those two (and Nacatl) compete with the best in the other colours, but the one drops get a little lacklustre after that.
I cut Jungle Lion only because it was the only Portal card I was running, which felt weird.
I just want to add that the 1st line of text on Wild Dogs is relevant and terrible. Horizon Canopy, fetchlands, shocklands all make wild dogs not an ideal turn 1 play. In those games, I would have rather paid an echo cost on pouncing jaguar than give my wild dogs to my opponent during my upkeep.
in 360 i've found that Pouncing jaguar is just really annoying with the echo cost. I would almost always want a different one drop. Jungle lion and E1, do work. Wild Nacatl is usually just a 2/2 for one in my experience(just a vanilla 2/2 for 1 , i know.) Other than that green's one drops are subpar for cube. And wolfbitten is pretty good
Jungle Lion, Experiment One, Wild Wacalt, and Wolfbitten are all great card. They're all the power one drop I'm running right now to support green aggro, and they're actually enough. I'll keep adding more as wizards print them. But they're enough for now at 360.
Dryad Militant is the only one of these I play. Green aggro is outclassed by black, red, and white aggro. It's a poor archetype that I stopped supporting because it doesn't win.
I think green aggro is good as well. Most of the time green tends to be the support color for my group but Im perfectly fine with that. My last draft I ended up with a GB aggressive deck. Most of the deck was black but I really needed Wild Dogs and Jungle Lions to ensure I had enough threats in the early game. Only 1 game did someone "steal" the dog from me and I still won that game.
The ogre was the main card I wanted to discuss. We can talk about EO & Nacatl but they are the best aggro green 1 drops by a wide margin so it seemed pointless to rave about how awesome they are. I was hoping to find one more green 1 drop I could add that wouldn't be terrible. That is what I am talking about here.
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sure, but i'd like to be able to choose whether i do that or not. being forced to play 1cc removal or some other play on turn two whether or not it's optimal is pretty bad. you don't always curve out, but being able to is pretty important in aggro. speed and disruption are your primary weapons and jaguar often prevents you from deploying them effectively.
If my choice is Jaguar + 3-drop, or Grizzly Bears + 3-drop, I know what I'd rather have.
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To be fair, 2 damage is a lot for an aggro deck. There have been plenty of aggro decks that didn't get there because they were short 1 or 2 dmg.
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This isn't true at all if you have removal, disruption, equipment, or just about anything at all to do that had to be done in that order.
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To be fair, I think Experiment a good sign that they are willing to give green 2 power 1 drop from now on. It'll be 1 per set or 1 every two set, but at least they're coming.
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You might be right mate! I wonder how many cube's green sections are making good use of it though.
I can certainly imagine myself curving out Experiment One, Strangleroot Geist and Boggart Ram-Gang but how often will I be able to put a deck that likes to do that together? I guess zoo will hopefully like it.
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Or Jaguar often allows you to do so. Costing 1 mana allows you to play other disruptive spells (the best of which often cost 1 mana as well) in the same turn when you would otherwise have to choose between playing disruption or a threat.
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jaguar doesn't allow anything, it forces your hand. playing a two drop instead of playing jaguar allows you to cast that spell (i assume you mean stuff like duress?) turn one anyway. regular two drops aren't stopping you from casting those spells early.
and for each time when casting lightning bolt is necessary turn two, there will be a time when it's completely detrimental. i don't think "sometimes playing a 1cc spell is necessary on turn 2" is a net positive for jaguar. those times are more than evened out by having to play something subpar (like a manland or a one drop) or nothing at all turn two. if you had the option to pay its mana cost and echo together in one turn, it would be a positive because it would give you options. the fact that it requires a 1cc spell (and the circumstances to use it favorably) at a specific time makes it problematic at least as much as it's beneficial.
oh, i completely agree. which is why skipping a 2 drop is incredibly bad in aggro. i'd rather play a 1 drop and follow with a 2 drop than skip one of them because of echo. my point isn't that two damage doesn't matter to aggro, it's that if two extra damage is all you're getting out of jaguar, wouldn't it be better to play a higher impact two drop instead? one that might push through that damage if your opponent has a blocker for your vanilla 2/2? ...in this hypothetical situation where we're playing aggro and completely skipping a turn.
As would we all. But sometimes that's not possible, because you don't have enough playable 1-drops.
You're not skipping your second turn. You're spending mana on T1 to give your 2-drop haste. And that's only in situations where you can't use the second mana on T2. Or play something like an ETBT land, a Wasteland/Strip Mine or cast a 1cc spell.
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I cut Jungle Lion only because it was the only Portal card I was running, which felt weird.
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