Green is the color in cube most likely to cast a 3 drop on two. However, I've noticed lately that the selection of three drops green really wants to cast on turn can be somewhat lacking. Here are the three drops currently in cubes from Eidolon's list , broken up into mono green and any multicolor ones that involve green.
You'll notice that a vast majority of these cards are below 50% inclusion in cubes. In fact, there are only 6 monogreen creatures that are in more than 50% of the cubes, and that number only goes up to 9 when you count the multicolored ones. Of those, three rarely want to be cast on turn 2 (Eternal Witness, Viridian Shaman, Uktabi Orangutan).
My question is this: If you want to support more than just ramp in green, and you want to really make decks that are "green aggro" decks without Jungle Lion and friends, don't you need to be focusing on the 3CMC slot? And if that's the case, what would you do?
I cut Call of the Herd from my cube not too long ago, and since then Green has gotten a lot better due to a lot of other changes, but ultimately I think Call of the Herd may have been an incorrect casualty. It's on it's way back in as I think I'd love to start ramping into it again. What else fits that role? What are your ideal T1 Llanowar Elves: T2 XXXX plays?
the three drop slot isnt very strong. 2 drops have amazing aggro value, 4 drops have amazing aggro value. The only strong aggro 3 drop is elephants. if they give us good aggro stuff at 3 i will play it(also a lot of ramp's good cards are 3cc and i dont want to oversaturate the cube with 3cc), but I'm not really impressed with many of the available options.
Champions of lambholt was CRAP in testing. I really wanted it to be good too.
It seems like a lot of people have been cutting three drops to shift to "super ramp" strategies. We still run (as beaters) Troll, Wolfrir Avenger, Call of the herd, and Ohran Viper. I have been considering Leatherback Baloth, but have always wondered if it is really better than Boggart Ram-Gang, which seems like the superior option attacking and blocking.
I'm not convinced that Champion of Lambholdt isn't terrible, but I'd be willing to listen to stories.
It seems like a lot of people have been cutting three drops to shift to "super ramp" strategies. We still run (as beaters) Troll, Wolfrir Avenger, Call of the herd, and Ohran Viper. I have been considering Leatherback Baloth, but have always wondered if it is really better than Boggart Ram-Gang, which seems like the superior option attacking and blocking.
Well, as you know, I do like the Baloth in support of green aggro and it is really rough for non-black decks in the early turns (2-4). Add in a simple creature pump (like a Bonesplitter or Rancor) for giant vicious beatings on turn 3.
With the advent of the ramp deck as a major archetype, I'm surprised more people do not play Somberwald Sage. That card is something that you just cannot let you opponent untap with if you want to stay in the game. The sequence of t1 elf, t2 sage, t3 6-7 drop is REAL rough for your opponent.
There is no good aggro deck without strong 1 mana creatures. While G definitely has some strong aggro 1 drops, the creature support at 2+3 mana just isn't there. If the best 3 mana aggro card that you can hope for in this color is "Gnarled Mass" target="blank">Gnarled Mass", you should ask yourself if the deck you are playing is really as good as you think it is.
In my cube, all the green 3 mana slots are filled with 2:1s that buy you some time till you get to cast the really powerful cards in this color.
I don't disagree with that, but I don't think Jungle Lion is a strong 1 mana creature either, and I think there has to be a deck between Goblin Guide and Thragtusk.
I think a lot of the time G/W fills that role with things like Silverblade Paladin, Mirran Crusader, Blade Splicer, etc, but I'm just trying to figure out what it would take to let green push it a little more itself.
I might find myself giving Leatherback a shot. Fixing is highly prioritized in my cube and I could see people casting him early reliably.
I have serious issues with the green 3 slot, beyond utility cards Eternal Witness and Viridian Shaman, and flashback beater Call of the Herd (and Finks I guess). I don't find that that hampers green aggro as a splash colour, but I'd like more chunky or aggressive three drops. Troll Ascetic was a very very late cut when I went down to the current cube size and could be a reinclusion until we get better three drops. It's the card I need most right now.
I have serious issues with the green 3 slot, beyond utility cards Eternal Witness and Viridian Shaman, and flashback beater Call of the Herd (and Finks I guess). I don't find that that hampers green aggro as a splash colour, but I'd like more chunky or aggressive three drops. Troll Ascetic was a very very late cut when I went down to the current cube size and could be a reinclusion until we get better three drops. It's the card I need most right now.
The problem with Troll Ascetic was pointed out to me fairly recently. It loses straight up to all of white's 3 drops. Silverblade Paladin, Mirran Crusader, and Blade Splicer can all kill it in combat (unless you regenerate, obviously), and that's a pain. I want my green creatures to be bigger and better than my white creatures.
The problem with Troll Ascetic was pointed out to me fairly recently. It loses straight up to all of white's 3 drops. Silverblade Paladin, Mirran Crusader, and Blade Splicer can all kill it in combat (unless you regenerate, obviously), and that's a pain. I want my green creatures to be bigger and better than my white creatures.
I've not thought of it like that. It's true, but white's 3 drop is incredibly stacked though. It may not be fair to compare like to like, although I want that to be the case too.
I've not thought of it like that. It's true, but white's 3 drop is incredibly stacked though. It may not be fair to compare like to like, although I want that to be the case too.
I mean, I'm comparing it to what I might see on the other side of the table when I attack, and 3 drops from another color are definitely what I might see when I play Ascetic.
You're absolutely right that it's not exactly fair, but it does a good job of pointing out the problem.
How come the ant-artifact crew doesn't have higher numbers? Uktabi Orangutan and Viridian Shaman are highly picked over here. Every green deck wants to draft them and they always are main decked. I cannot imagine no including them, even if we went down from 450 to something like 320.
I am glad that this thread got started. I have been wavering on the sage and and troll ascetic.
Boggart Ram Gang is a definite for me even if it is out of favor here.
I feel that the three drop sot needs help for Green and Red. I have drafted a couple G/x decks with big enough holes in the 3 spot that I slow roll my elf frequently and am looking for other 1 drops(rancor, bonesplitter etc. ) to maximize my mana.
I think I will try the Leatherback for a while since he hasn't had a chance but I really don't see him shining in place of another 4 drop or ramp spell.
How come the ant-artifact crew doesn't have higher numbers? Uktabi Orangutan and Viridian Shaman are highly picked over here. Every green deck wants to draft them and they always are main decked. I cannot imagine no including them, even if we went down from 450 to something like 320.
Well, for my cube at least, I decided that we didn't need both of them, so I only play one. I suspect that's more universal than playing both of them, and the numbers for them are skewed. I'd be almost every cube plays one of 'em.
How come the ant-artifact crew doesn't have higher numbers? Uktabi Orangutan and Viridian Shaman are highly picked over here. Every green deck wants to draft them and they always are main decked. I cannot imagine no including them, even if we went down from 450 to something like 320.
Well if you add them together they equal 1.3 per cube. They go down in value pretty hard in unpowered where I think 1 might be the right call. Your point is solid though we might as well be using this slot to slap artifacts with creatures rather than the ones at 4 or 5.
well the ones at 4 and 5 hit enchantments too, which is relevant. That said, I don't run all 3 of the 5 drop ones, either (Slime, Wickerbough, Stomphowler), and I haven't felt that only 2 of them and 1 Sex Monkeys is too few.
This card is a HOUSE drop on turn two. It may be somewhat unpredictable, but it is with bigger that the leatherback or a double bird of paradise. If you have an artifact/instant/sorcery it is only a bear. It was what replaced the Somberwald Sage with and I am happy for it, often yielding the magic 6 on turn 3 or bashing for 5.
No one has mentioned Dungrove Elder yet either. But I do adore Mul Daya's Channelers, huge threat there. But for Elder, he can eventually become better than Ascetic, and if you run lands like Kessig Wolf Run that can make him beastly..but its pretty slow.
We've actually thought about including more elf centric cards. How good would Elvish Archdruid be..because it is a big problem for green that it doesn't have many great cards to play off three mana on turn 2. Still, Channelers is so, so good.
I do strongly suggest everyone try Leatherback, he plays like a better Tarmogoyf if you have his mana cost.
As for Troll Ascetic, white is really the most stalling color. Wall of Omens, 2 mana first strikers (there are like 10 different ones that see some action), an array of 3 power guys (with such minor powers as double strike and pro: green) and then the list goes on.
Meanwhile, black is starting to get heavy into sacrifice effects and recurrable chump blocking.
Also, one other thing is that Greens 4 and 5 drops are its best and they don't play the same as 4s and 5s in other colors. Don't forget that Natural Order can often happen turn 3 and that it is the least likely cheat card to get stolen by a combo player.
Finally, my friend has some kind of combo elf concoction he used to play in Legacy (I tried a few games on MTGO but it makes click, click, click, click, click) and he insists that Mirror Entity is a great finisher for Green decks so much that we don't have Craterhoof Behemoth in right now. If you untap with Entity you can attack with an absolute army. If you have 7-8 mana you can attack with a bunch of 5/5s or hold mana to save from red sweepers and then alpha strike the next turn.
It was what replaced the Somberwald Sage with and I am happy for it, often yielding the magic 6 on turn 3 or bashing for 5.
When sage was great he was tremedous. But he is pretty fragile, can't attack without equipment and ocassionally frustrated by the creature only element ofthe free mana.
Also going to 6 is good as going to 7 most of the time with the card selection we have.
When sage was great he was tremedous. But he is pretty fragile, can't attack without equipment and ocassionally frustrated by the creature only element ofthe free mana.
Also going to 6 is good as going to 7 most of the time with the card selection we have.
She is fragile but that kind of green deck gets rolled by anything with a bunch of the control burn cards with or without sage. Lucky black doesn't have any really fast sweepers. But I really started to hate Slagstorm and (god help me) Arc Lightning. But as I said, Mirror Entity does help as protection if you get him (partly why we play Avacyn's Pilgrim).
I admit I'm worried about this type of deck with all the ridiculous black stuff that we've recently added.
Oh, we aren't playing Engineered Explosives either because it is basically a sheer hoser. That probably makes a difference.
Well those kind of decks aren't as vulnerable to Slagstorm or Arc Lightning when you play creatures that are of decent size, instead of Sage. That's one of my big problems with Sage: It's so fragile and for 3 mana I need it to do more than die to Forked Bolt with a buddy.
Instead of ramping into Sage into Titan where you're totally boned if they have Arc Trail, I like to play my 4 and 5 drops early. Or, as this thread might suggest, 3 drops. Playing things like Leatherback Baloth might give the green deck what it's looking for to not be as vulnerable to that nonsense.
Personally, i never liked them too much. I opted to play Naturalize, Krosan Grip and other spell variants instead as i value the combination of instant speed, lower casting cost and the option to hit enchantments more than getting a grey ogre. The way i see it, green has enough creatures (Stomphowler, Wickerbough Elder, etc) that destroy noncreature permanents at higher manacosts, so i went for flexibility in the low costs.
While i do acknowledge that the Uktabis are good, i never missed them.
As for the topic of the thread, i found that the 3drop in my Gx decks was either filled by another color (especially B and W have great 3 drops that can be dropped on turn 2 in a Gx shell) or by rampy stuff in monogreen. Kodama's Reach, Cultivate and so on. I also love Ohran Viper, that card is brilliant, fills some roles that green desperately needs.
For us its the other way around on the artifact hate. Monkey and Shaman are ok in ramp decks (Zenith don't forget or even Worldly Tutor) but they also work with Recursion themes as part of the "toolbox'
Meanwhile I look at Stomphowler and say "You, or..Thragtusk".
Well those kind of decks aren't as vulnerable to Slagstorm or Arc Lightning when you play creatures that are of decent size, instead of Sage. That's one of my big problems with Sage: It's so fragile and for 3 mana I need it to do more than die to Forked Bolt with a buddy.
Instead of ramping into Sage into Titan where you're totally boned if they have Arc Trail, I like to play my 4 and 5 drops early. Or, as this thread might suggest, 3 drops. Playing things like Leatherback Baloth might give the green deck what it's looking for to not be as vulnerable to that nonsense.
It depends becaues we went a long time and never saw red control get drafted. If no one drafts it Arc Lightning isn't very good and there's no reason to even cube Slagstorm. At least, that was our logic until we gave Slagstorm another try and all the sudden I was getting blown out because all my elves just got immolated.
Overall I really, really think red needs to have a viable controlling strategy that isn't counter-burn based because otherwise it is a desperately boring color. I see a bunch of cubes here and wonder what FTK is even doing for them because he isn't particularly great in aggro decks.
Overall I really, really think red needs to have a viable controlling strategy that isn't counter-burn based because otherwise it is a desperately boring color. I see a bunch of cubes here and wonder what FTK is even doing for them because he isn't particularly great in aggro decks.
Burn can get one-dimensional, but red's best cards in most archetypes (beside the likes of Guide and Vortex) get drafted equally highly by control, even many of the ones associated with aggressive strategies. I don't think it takes many cards added to red to make it a fine control colour on top of aggro and midrange.
FTK is really good in a multitude of archetypes though - four power and the four damage to a blocker is very welcome in all matchups, particularly as few burn spells can kill four toughness creatures.
I read statements like "my red section is converting to all aggressive" often. And Hellrider, Falkenrath Aristocrat and Hero of Oxid are huge game changers in that capacity.
I think hes really good but I'm seeing top ends like Hell's Thunder attacking 4 drops, then Zealous Conscripts and Thundermaw
EDIT: back on topic, I wanted to add that Channelers only sorta help vs burn. Its a coinflip whether she dies to shock or not
FTK is boss in aggro. It's 4-power for 4 mana and kills blockers for your attacking team. It's not "aggro-exclusive" like some of the haste-drops are, but that doesn't mean it's not good in aggro. It's still the best red 4-drop for the cube, no matter how aggressively tilted your red section becomes.
Green is the color in cube most likely to cast a 3 drop on two. However, I've noticed lately that the selection of three drops green really wants to cast on turn can be somewhat lacking. Here are the three drops currently in cubes from Eidolon's list , broken up into mono green and any multicolor ones that involve green.
Monogreen
Eternal Witness (100%)
Yavimaya Elder (88%)
Troll Ascetic (88%)
Viridian Shaman (76%)
Call of the Herd (76%)
Uktabi Orangutan (61%)
Wolfir Avenger (48%)
Ohran Viper (42%)
Great Sable Stag (29%)
Somberwald Sage (14%)
Imperious Perfect (8%)
Caller of the Claw (5%)
Champion of Lambholt (4%)
Borderland Ranger (4%)
Civic Wayfinder (4%)
Carven Caryatid (4%)
Multicolor
Kitchen Finks (92%)
Trygon Predator (91%)
Edric, Spymaster of Trest (67%)
Knight of the Reliquary (42%)
Boggart Ram-Gang (32%)
Flinthoof Boar (22%) (kind of)
Shardless Agent (15%)
Dreg Mangler (14%)
Cold-Eyed Selkie (8%)
Lorescale Coatl (7%)
Doran, the Siege Tower (5%)
Loxodon Smiter (4%)
You'll notice that a vast majority of these cards are below 50% inclusion in cubes. In fact, there are only 6 monogreen creatures that are in more than 50% of the cubes, and that number only goes up to 9 when you count the multicolored ones. Of those, three rarely want to be cast on turn 2 (Eternal Witness, Viridian Shaman, Uktabi Orangutan).
My question is this: If you want to support more than just ramp in green, and you want to really make decks that are "green aggro" decks without Jungle Lion and friends, don't you need to be focusing on the 3CMC slot? And if that's the case, what would you do?
I cut Call of the Herd from my cube not too long ago, and since then Green has gotten a lot better due to a lot of other changes, but ultimately I think Call of the Herd may have been an incorrect casualty. It's on it's way back in as I think I'd love to start ramping into it again. What else fits that role? What are your ideal T1 Llanowar Elves: T2 XXXX plays?
I'm wondering if cards like Champion of Lambholt" target="blank">Champion of Lambholt should be seeing more play than they are, or if cards like Leatherback Baloth" target="blank">Leatherback Baloth might actually be good enough to justify their mana cost.
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Champions of lambholt was CRAP in testing. I really wanted it to be good too.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
I'm not convinced that Champion of Lambholdt isn't terrible, but I'd be willing to listen to stories.
Well, as you know, I do like the Baloth in support of green aggro and it is really rough for non-black decks in the early turns (2-4). Add in a simple creature pump (like a Bonesplitter or Rancor) for giant vicious beatings on turn 3.
With the advent of the ramp deck as a major archetype, I'm surprised more people do not play Somberwald Sage. That card is something that you just cannot let you opponent untap with if you want to stay in the game. The sequence of t1 elf, t2 sage, t3 6-7 drop is REAL rough for your opponent.
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I don't disagree with that, but I don't think Jungle Lion is a strong 1 mana creature either, and I think there has to be a deck between Goblin Guide and Thragtusk.
I think a lot of the time G/W fills that role with things like Silverblade Paladin, Mirran Crusader, Blade Splicer, etc, but I'm just trying to figure out what it would take to let green push it a little more itself.
I might find myself giving Leatherback a shot. Fixing is highly prioritized in my cube and I could see people casting him early reliably.
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
The problem with Troll Ascetic was pointed out to me fairly recently. It loses straight up to all of white's 3 drops. Silverblade Paladin, Mirran Crusader, and Blade Splicer can all kill it in combat (unless you regenerate, obviously), and that's a pain. I want my green creatures to be bigger and better than my white creatures.
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I've not thought of it like that. It's true, but white's 3 drop is incredibly stacked though. It may not be fair to compare like to like, although I want that to be the case too.
That sucks, but I'm glad you still post here.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I mean, I'm comparing it to what I might see on the other side of the table when I attack, and 3 drops from another color are definitely what I might see when I play Ascetic.
You're absolutely right that it's not exactly fair, but it does a good job of pointing out the problem.
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I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Boggart Ram Gang is a definite for me even if it is out of favor here.
I feel that the three drop sot needs help for Green and Red. I have drafted a couple G/x decks with big enough holes in the 3 spot that I slow roll my elf frequently and am looking for other 1 drops(rancor, bonesplitter etc. ) to maximize my mana.
I think I will try the Leatherback for a while since he hasn't had a chance but I really don't see him shining in place of another 4 drop or ramp spell.
Well, for my cube at least, I decided that we didn't need both of them, so I only play one. I suspect that's more universal than playing both of them, and the numbers for them are skewed. I'd be almost every cube plays one of 'em.
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Well if you add them together they equal 1.3 per cube. They go down in value pretty hard in unpowered where I think 1 might be the right call. Your point is solid though we might as well be using this slot to slap artifacts with creatures rather than the ones at 4 or 5.
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Mul Daya Channelers
This card is a HOUSE drop on turn two. It may be somewhat unpredictable, but it is with bigger that the leatherback or a double bird of paradise. If you have an artifact/instant/sorcery it is only a bear. It was what replaced the Somberwald Sage with and I am happy for it, often yielding the magic 6 on turn 3 or bashing for 5.
We've actually thought about including more elf centric cards. How good would Elvish Archdruid be..because it is a big problem for green that it doesn't have many great cards to play off three mana on turn 2. Still, Channelers is so, so good.
I do strongly suggest everyone try Leatherback, he plays like a better Tarmogoyf if you have his mana cost.
As for Troll Ascetic, white is really the most stalling color. Wall of Omens, 2 mana first strikers (there are like 10 different ones that see some action), an array of 3 power guys (with such minor powers as double strike and pro: green) and then the list goes on.
Meanwhile, black is starting to get heavy into sacrifice effects and recurrable chump blocking.
Also, one other thing is that Greens 4 and 5 drops are its best and they don't play the same as 4s and 5s in other colors. Don't forget that Natural Order can often happen turn 3 and that it is the least likely cheat card to get stolen by a combo player.
Finally, my friend has some kind of combo elf concoction he used to play in Legacy (I tried a few games on MTGO but it makes click, click, click, click, click) and he insists that Mirror Entity is a great finisher for Green decks so much that we don't have Craterhoof Behemoth in right now. If you untap with Entity you can attack with an absolute army. If you have 7-8 mana you can attack with a bunch of 5/5s or hold mana to save from red sweepers and then alpha strike the next turn.
I'm curious why you cut Somberwald?
Also going to 6 is good as going to 7 most of the time with the card selection we have.
She is fragile but that kind of green deck gets rolled by anything with a bunch of the control burn cards with or without sage. Lucky black doesn't have any really fast sweepers. But I really started to hate Slagstorm and (god help me) Arc Lightning. But as I said, Mirror Entity does help as protection if you get him (partly why we play Avacyn's Pilgrim).
I admit I'm worried about this type of deck with all the ridiculous black stuff that we've recently added.
Oh, we aren't playing Engineered Explosives either because it is basically a sheer hoser. That probably makes a difference.
Instead of ramping into Sage into Titan where you're totally boned if they have Arc Trail, I like to play my 4 and 5 drops early. Or, as this thread might suggest, 3 drops. Playing things like Leatherback Baloth might give the green deck what it's looking for to not be as vulnerable to that nonsense.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
For us its the other way around on the artifact hate. Monkey and Shaman are ok in ramp decks (Zenith don't forget or even Worldly Tutor) but they also work with Recursion themes as part of the "toolbox'
Meanwhile I look at Stomphowler and say "You, or..Thragtusk".
It depends becaues we went a long time and never saw red control get drafted. If no one drafts it Arc Lightning isn't very good and there's no reason to even cube Slagstorm. At least, that was our logic until we gave Slagstorm another try and all the sudden I was getting blown out because all my elves just got immolated.
Overall I really, really think red needs to have a viable controlling strategy that isn't counter-burn based because otherwise it is a desperately boring color. I see a bunch of cubes here and wonder what FTK is even doing for them because he isn't particularly great in aggro decks.
I cannot process this statement.
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Burn can get one-dimensional, but red's best cards in most archetypes (beside the likes of Guide and Vortex) get drafted equally highly by control, even many of the ones associated with aggressive strategies. I don't think it takes many cards added to red to make it a fine control colour on top of aggro and midrange.
FTK is really good in a multitude of archetypes though - four power and the four damage to a blocker is very welcome in all matchups, particularly as few burn spells can kill four toughness creatures.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I read statements like "my red section is converting to all aggressive" often. And Hellrider, Falkenrath Aristocrat and Hero of Oxid are huge game changers in that capacity.
I think hes really good but I'm seeing top ends like Hell's Thunder attacking 4 drops, then Zealous Conscripts and Thundermaw
EDIT: back on topic, I wanted to add that Channelers only sorta help vs burn. Its a coinflip whether she dies to shock or not
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