MTG Salvation

Quote from Sea R Hill

Well I guess that considering that I voluntarily limit the number of PW by 1 per section it makes sens that I keep Fires of Yavimaya in my Cube.

I only play the best PW of each section, and the Gold PW slot is already taken by Ajani Vengeant.

With that restriction, I agree that Ajani V. is the best multicolor option, and the value of Fires certainly goes up.

If you play an unpowered list, consider Artifact Mutation as one of the options in competition with the Tin Street Hooligan. It should net you at least 2 dudes if there aren't a ton of Moxen to shoot down, and it's an instant (which is pretty big). And anything more than 2cmc and it it's bomb compared to Hooligan. It additionally prevents regeneration against the 4cc Masticore brothers. I'm testing it out in my list right now, and since you're running the Hooligan I thought I'd offer up my $0.02 to you.

Hmmmm, good comparison between Artifact Mutation and Tin Street Hooligan. The upside of more tokens is nice, but I think it's also important to consider sometimes hooligan is played on turn 2 for 2 power and that's that. Good reasons to go with either.

Just because Ironclaw Orcs were playable back in the day as the only usable 2-power 2-drop in red doesn't mean that Goblin Piker is okay for the cube. If there's any measurable percentage of time that you're playing Tin-Street Hooligan without blowing up an artifact, I'd flash cut that thing from the cube in a heartbeat.

Goblin Piker is absolutely unacceptable in the cube. Would you ever play Hooligan without green mana in your deck? I hope to the cube gods that the answer is no.

Did some testing of Domri Rade in a Naya midrange creature-heavy (17) build where many of its "spells" were creatures like FTK/Stomphowler and I thought that it was very good. It didn't whiff too often and generally acted as a nice card advantage mechanic. Prey Upon mode was pretty solid too, worked nicely with the large creatures or as a way to just kill small annoying things.

Will try to get more testing done this weekend, but initial impressions have been solid so far.

I have never needed a 2-drop bad enough to run a Hooligan with no green mana. Nor have I included Loam Lions with no forests, or Morph creatures with no mana to turn them face-up.

Quote from Sea R Hill

Well I have. But my Cube is surely less powerfull than yours.

I don't think it's a matter of power. How many red 2-drops do you have and what size is your cube? How many drafters on average?

Really, you should post your cube list!

Guys, do us all a favor and start a Tin Street Hooligan thread, or take this to the RG guild thread.

Quote from Usman

Did some testing of Domri Rade in a Naya midrange creature-heavy (17) build where many of its "spells" were creatures like FTK/Stomphowler and I thought that it was very good. It didn't whiff too often and generally acted as a nice card advantage mechanic. Prey Upon mode was pretty solid too, worked nicely with the large creatures or as a way to just kill small annoying things.

Will try to get more testing done this weekend, but initial impressions have been solid so far.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm assuming it "whiffed" at least half the time (or did you get lucky)?

Au revoir Giant Solifuge... btw, this walker is an auto-include in anything that supports RG aggro.

Aggro is where it's the worst. By far. Even in a deck with a TON of creatures (like 17 or more) the +1 ability whiffs more than half of the time. And when all your creatures are cheap aggro beaters, the -2 ability is also terrible. The last thing I want to be doing with my aggro 3-drop is playing a no-impact card that may slowly grind out card advantage over the length of the game. This card is suited for a creature-heavy RG mid-range deck, and even in there it's questionable. It's certainly not a good Gruul aggro card.

Mid-range green does have a pretty high creature count. I could see it being playable (or perhaps even quite good) in that deck.

I find it amusing that both RG planeswalkers have the inability to protect innately protect themselves despite being in the colors of aggression/willingness to fight.

Quote from mook1e

I find it amusing that both RG planeswalkers have the inability to protect innately protect themselves despite being in the colors of aggression/willingness to fight.

Doesn't that make them fit perfectly?

Vraska has far outplayed how she appears on paper.

vraska has always been useful in my groups experience, every time she comes down she vindicates and creates a sense of urgency at the very least. Paying 3BG and getting a vindicate +2 life as a WCS is still pretty good, 1GR and gaining 3 life does not offer the same value. 1GR and fight + 1 life is also not amazing. I was initially impressed with Domri and will test him out due to him being a cheap PW, and myself not liking gruul, but vraska has earned her spot.

Vraska has been terrifying as all hell here. The card is just damn near impossible to deal with gracefully, and is even scarier on an empty (or even) board.

I expect Domri to be worse, as his abilities are less objectively powerful, but at only three mana, he intrigues me.

Quote from wtwlf123

Doesn't that make them fit perfectly?

You could go either way - the color has tons of guys already, so give the RG planeswalkers something else to do or the color has tons of guys so why don't either RG planeswalkers produce tons of guys also. Either logically makes sense to me.

As RG, you'd think they'd be able to tangle with creatures themselves (say like Ajani Vengeant or chandra. even liliana can give -x/-x, jace bounces). But so far, none of the RG planeswalkers themselves are willing to join the fray, which seems not very RG at all.

So after being out for a while. Who is still running this in their GR? Any changes in opinion?

I throw him in for 2 draft. He's disappointing. I'll add in Sarkhan Vol and Stormbind before I add him in for sure.

Can you post a sample average deck list he's good in? Is he midrange only?

Where would you rank it in red/green?

he's probably 4th behind sarkhan, bloodbraid & kird ape, in no particular order. i know some ppl really like stormbind, but he's a "walker" & they can really warp the game if you dont deal w/ them; thats why i say he's better

I think he's behind quite a few other cards too, including Huntmaster of the Fells foremost.

It works a lot better for Eidolon if all he runs is Gruul midrange, but if you play aggro and control decks in that combination too, he'll only wind up making the cut in about 1/3 of the Gruul decks, and just about 1/2 of those midrange lists. Even in that list above, the chance of hitting with his + ability isn't great. He played very poorly for us, even in the decks he was supposed to be great in.

Quote from eidolon232 »

However with the high number of 4 drops in these colors, it becomes the 3rd Gruul card that you should use.

There's also a high number of better 3-drops in both of those colors. Maybe even more competition by percentage (red has a TON of great 3cc noncreature cards, and almost no 4cc spells). Also, this is assuming that you don't ever play Gruul aggro, because you're excluding Kird Ape which is critical for that decktype. There's a huge number of RG cards that I consider better than Domari, beyond just the 4 cards I consider at the top right now. Even compared to 3cc cards, I like Savageborn Hydra more; especially in a midrange Gruul deck with a few mana dorks in it. That card can apply ridiculous pressure.

Quote from eidolon232 »

Calling Kird Ape critical for the archetype underlines the main issue with green aggro: it has some strong cards, but just not enough of them. Imo you are just wasting the gold slots on something with such a small impact on the game as a 2 power vanilla creature with a drawback.

I think there's more than enough tools available to Gruul aggro to have it be competitive. I know there's more than enough tools, actually. The majority of the green creatures under CMC5 all play very well in those decks, and there are several fantastic aggro creatures in there.

Quote from wtwlf123

I think there's more than enough tools available to Gruul aggro to have it be competitive. I know there's more than enough tools, actually. The majority of the green creatures under CMC5 all play very well in those decks, and there are several fantastic aggro creatures in there.

While I like Domri better than wtwlf123 I have t oalso speak up in defense of the Ape. I don't think I have ever played a R/G deck im my life that doesn't want him. His 'drawback' if you call it that, is that if you are mana-hosed or not much in green he is smaller. Well I usually die when I am mana hosed anyway so that is not a drawback.

Yes the Ape is best at leading the beat down chagre but when someone lays a first turn studet of warfard or figure of desitiy the ape just control the board. They can diddle a few turns to make their guy big enough or they can drops some other puds. I no of no midrange or control deck that doesn't like that kind of board presense from a 1 drop.

Now as far as domri I think he can be magical in ramp decks. The higher likelyhood you are putting him out on turn two from an elf the better. Every game he dropped on two followed by one of the aforementioned great G/R 4 drops on 3 really exploited what green is good at.