Here are the rankings from 720 card cubes based on Eidolon's data:
Thrun, the Last Troll (11x)
Wickerbough Elder (10x)
Vengevine (10x)
Phantom Centaur (10x)
Oracle of Mul Daya (10x)
Obstinate Baloth (10x)
Chameleon Colossus (10x)
Blastoderm (10x)
Master of the Wild Hunt (9x)
Wickerbough Elder plays as a 5 mana creature methinks.
you can cast him turn 4 and 5, so i think it's ok to put him in either place. if you have another five drop in hand you can drop him on 4 to use all your mana. also, if your opponent doesn't have any artifacts out you can still cast him and get full benefit by either blowing something up when they play it or dissuading them from playing it in the first place.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Staples in even the smallest of cubes
1. Thrun, Super Troll
2. Wickerbough Elder (lower in pure power, but every deck needs artifact destruction)
3. Vengevine (4 power haste with a touch of recurring capabilies)
High Quality
Blastoderm (begins to feel outdated, but always hits hard and makes opponents unhappy)
Phantom Centaur (hard hitting with staying power, but has a hard time maindecking here)
Chameleon Colossus (good card, but takes a lot of mana to shine, left our cube around 500-550)
Good for bigger cubes
Obstinate Baloth (was great a couple of years ago, but is too slow nowadays, 600+)
Master of Wild Hunt (might be rated higher depending on the cube, was too slow and fragile in our environement)
Oracle of Mul Daya (cool card, but at four mana the direct impact was too slow for most of our green decks, great in slightly slower cubes)
I value MotwH higher than Blastoderme, despite his fragility. Yes, if the opponent has a removal, it dies. But if the opponent has a 1/1 blocker (or any random trash), your Blastoderme seems as useless.
I guess we could argue about this more seriously, but I'll pass, so let's say "taste and colours..."
I agree with Hicham's ranking, except that I would switch Obstinate Baloth and Chameleon Colossus. I think that some chunky life gain on a big body is a relevant addition to midrange and control decks, while the Colossus is just another big dumb beater. And I already have Thrun, the Last Troll, Blastoderm and Phantom Centaur for that role.
I consider Wickerbough Elder a 5 drop so I won't rank him in this, but my list would be:
It is clearly a 4-drop with an activated ability though. The reason why I like Wickerbough Elder more than Indrik Stomphowler is that I don't need five mana to cast him. When I have five mana and need to destroy something right away, it plays like a 5-drop, but that isn't always the case. Sometimes, you are stuck on four lands or you are the only player with artifacts and/or enchantments on the table. In those situations, I am very happy to have a 4-drop like the Elder and not a 5-drop like the Indrik. Nobody would consider Spikeshot Elder to be a 4-drop, so why would Wickerbough Elder be a 5-drop?
But if the opponent has a 1/1 blocker (or any random trash), your Blastoderm seems as useless.
As long as he doesn't have a regenerating blocker, an indestructible blocker or a whole army of tokens, I am quite happy if my opponent has to "sacrifice" a creature every turn.
He's been pretty damn good in his second go-around. There's a lot of stuff that can kill it, but they absolutely have to. Right away. I could be bias because I'm always throwing him into decks that can easily protect him ...but still.
In my opinion, if you are playing Wickerbough only as a 5 drop you are doing it wrong. It's good because it is flexible. Sometimes it's a Stomphowler, and sometimes it comes down earlier and blows something up next turn.
My ranking is similar to wtwlf except I don't like MotWH as much
1. Vengevine
2. Thrun
3. Wickerbough
4. Yeva (but this is currently in testing)
5. Phantom Centaur
6. Chameleon Colossus
7. Blastoderm
8. Master of the Wild Hunt
9. Obstinate Baloth
10 Oracle (I really really love this card but I don't think it's good enough for cube)
I and many cubers categorize cards by ideal play: Wickerbough Elder is most ideal as a Naturalize strapped to a 4/4 for 5. A turn 4 Wickerbough is susceptible to burn and allows the opponent the opportunity to plan for a Naturalize. Of course this is not how he's always played, but it is the most efficient use of the card.
Spikeshot Elder is a one drop because ideally you play your one drops on curve in aggro decks. The burn ability is then used later for some much needed reach.
Because Spikeshot Elder's ability cost much more, is played in a deck where turn 4 should mean game so it comes down before that and can be used as many times as you want as appose to costing just 1 and only being able to use it once. I also consider Dawntreader Elk a 3 drop.
Right, Spikeshot Elder may have been a bad comparison. Meloku the Clouded Mirror would have been better. Sure seems uncastable at five mana, since you won't get to activate his ability when he dies before you untap.
I like the flexibility to play those cards when I want to. Sometimes it's better to cast it on T5. Sometimes the flexibility of playing it on T4 is important; to the curve, the board state or whatever other reason may be there. So cards with activation costs I just consider at their base cost -- I don't consider the Elder to be a 5-drop, and I don't consider Spikeshot to be a 4-drop.
I like the flexibility to play those cards when I want to. Sometimes it's better to cast it on T5. Sometimes the flexibility of playing it on T4 is important; to the curve, the board state or whatever other reason may be there. So cards with activation costs I just consider at their base cost -- I don't consider the Elder to be a 5-drop, and I don't consider Spikeshot to be a 4-drop.
And that is the way to go. Kor Sanctifiers can be considered to be a 4-drop since you only get their main effect if you spent the additional mana at the moment you cast them. The same just isn't true for Wickerbough Elder.
And that is the way to go. Kor Sanctifiers can be considered to be a 4-drop since you only get their main effect if you spent the additional mana at the moment you cast them. The same just isn't true for Wickerbough Elder.
My ranking for the ones I run in my 360:
Thrun
Master of the Wild Hunt
Phantom Centaur
Chameleon Colossus/Vengevine
Reasoning green doesn't play as a primary aggro (ramp is the primary archetype) color in my cube so Vengevine's value is greatly reduced. As a card evaluator I am an optimist worrying much more about BCS than ACS, and so I really value master of the wild hunt as unanswered it can take games over.
I don't currently run Wickerbough Elder as I feel like I have enough answers to those sort of permanents, but I've been considering running it over CC or Vengevine for a while now.
Do you wait until T4 to play Spikeshot Elder because you're afraid it might just be a Mons' Goblin Raiders?
Except it is a Hill Giant since you cast it on turn 4 as a 3/3 and then either you opponent waits to kill it in battle or by a card before playing the good artifact you want to kill with the Elder, thus making it a Hill Giant there, or they destroy it right when it comes out, and...oh look! It's a Hill Giant there too! The only time it isn't is when you play it turn 5 and kill something, thus its a 5 drop.
And we've already discussed how you can't compare it to Spikeshot Elder, I'd suggest you go back and re-read that part thoroughly
Except it is a Hill Giant since you cast it on turn 4 as a 3/3 and then either you opponent waits to kill it in battle or by a card before playing the good artifact you want to kill with the Elder, thus making it a Hill Giant there, or they destroy it right when it comes out, and...oh look! It's a Hill Giant there too! The only time it isn't is when you play it turn 5 and kill something, thus its a 5 drop.
And we've already discussed how you can't compare it to Spikeshot Elder, I'd suggest you go back and re-read that part thoroughly
I would love a Hill Giant that duresses all awesome artifacts out of their hand...
I would love it if Hill Giant allowed me to pay one mana to blow up a artifact/enchantment and then put a +1/+1 counter on it. But wait ...then it wouldn't be a Hill Giant anymore. It would be something better instead.
Here are the rankings from 450 card cubes based on Eidolon's data:
Wickerbough Elder (13x)
Vengevine (13x)
Phantom Centaur (12x)
Chameleon Colossus (12x)
Obstinate Baloth (7x)
Blastoderm (7x)
Here are the rankings from 720 card cubes based on Eidolon's data:
Wickerbough Elder (10x)
Vengevine (10x)
Phantom Centaur (10x)
Oracle of Mul Daya (10x)
Obstinate Baloth (10x)
Chameleon Colossus (10x)
Blastoderm (10x)
Master of the Wild Hunt (9x)
you can cast him turn 4 and 5, so i think it's ok to put him in either place. if you have another five drop in hand you can drop him on 4 to use all your mana. also, if your opponent doesn't have any artifacts out you can still cast him and get full benefit by either blowing something up when they play it or dissuading them from playing it in the first place.
1) Thrun, the Last Troll
2) Master of the Wild Hunt
3) Obstinate Baloth
4) Blastoderm
5) Oracle of Mul Daya
6) Chameleon Colossus
7) Phantom Centaur
8) Vengevine
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1. Thrun, Super Troll
2. Wickerbough Elder (lower in pure power, but every deck needs artifact destruction)
3. Vengevine (4 power haste with a touch of recurring capabilies)
High Quality
Blastoderm (begins to feel outdated, but always hits hard and makes opponents unhappy)
Phantom Centaur (hard hitting with staying power, but has a hard time maindecking here)
Chameleon Colossus (good card, but takes a lot of mana to shine, left our cube around 500-550)
Good for bigger cubes
Obstinate Baloth (was great a couple of years ago, but is too slow nowadays, 600+)
Master of Wild Hunt (might be rated higher depending on the cube, was too slow and fragile in our environement)
Oracle of Mul Daya (cool card, but at four mana the direct impact was too slow for most of our green decks, great in slightly slower cubes)
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I guess we could argue about this more seriously, but I'll pass, so let's say "taste and colours..."
It is clearly a 4-drop with an activated ability though. The reason why I like Wickerbough Elder more than Indrik Stomphowler is that I don't need five mana to cast him. When I have five mana and need to destroy something right away, it plays like a 5-drop, but that isn't always the case. Sometimes, you are stuck on four lands or you are the only player with artifacts and/or enchantments on the table. In those situations, I am very happy to have a 4-drop like the Elder and not a 5-drop like the Indrik. Nobody would consider Spikeshot Elder to be a 4-drop, so why would Wickerbough Elder be a 5-drop?
As long as he doesn't have a regenerating blocker, an indestructible blocker or a whole army of tokens, I am quite happy if my opponent has to "sacrifice" a creature every turn.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
2. Wickerbough Elder
3. Thrun, the Last Troll
4. Master of the Wild Hunt
5. Phantom Centaur
6. Yeva, Nature's Herald
7. Chameleon Colossus
8. Blastoderm
9. Obstinate Baloth
10. Oracle of Mul Daya
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Master is playing that well for you? I'm surprised. I have no experience with the card at all.
I agree with this ranking except that I like Thrun better than anything else and have no idea where to rank MotWH.
Cheers,
rant
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My ranking is similar to wtwlf except I don't like MotWH as much
1. Vengevine
2. Thrun
3. Wickerbough
4. Yeva (but this is currently in testing)
5. Phantom Centaur
6. Chameleon Colossus
7. Blastoderm
8. Master of the Wild Hunt
9. Obstinate Baloth
10 Oracle (I really really love this card but I don't think it's good enough for cube)
L2 Judge
And would rank them in that order.
EDIT: I really like how Master of the Wild Hunt plays, and if Yeva doesn't work out, he'll probably go back in.
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Spikeshot Elder is a one drop because ideally you play your one drops on curve in aggro decks. The burn ability is then used later for some much needed reach.
Because Spikeshot Elder's ability cost much more, is played in a deck where turn 4 should mean game so it comes down before that and can be used as many times as you want as appose to costing just 1 and only being able to use it once. I also consider Dawntreader Elk a 3 drop.
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Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
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And that is the way to go. Kor Sanctifiers can be considered to be a 4-drop since you only get their main effect if you spent the additional mana at the moment you cast them. The same just isn't true for Wickerbough Elder.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Exactly my thinking.
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Good thing it's not a Hill Giant, huh?
Do you wait until T4 to play Spikeshot Elder because you're afraid it might just be a Mons' Goblin Raiders?
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Thrun
Master of the Wild Hunt
Phantom Centaur
Chameleon Colossus/Vengevine
Reasoning green doesn't play as a primary aggro (ramp is the primary archetype) color in my cube so Vengevine's value is greatly reduced. As a card evaluator I am an optimist worrying much more about BCS than ACS, and so I really value master of the wild hunt as unanswered it can take games over.
I don't currently run Wickerbough Elder as I feel like I have enough answers to those sort of permanents, but I've been considering running it over CC or Vengevine for a while now.
Except it is a Hill Giant since you cast it on turn 4 as a 3/3 and then either you opponent waits to kill it in battle or by a card before playing the good artifact you want to kill with the Elder, thus making it a Hill Giant there, or they destroy it right when it comes out, and...oh look! It's a Hill Giant there too! The only time it isn't is when you play it turn 5 and kill something, thus its a 5 drop.
And we've already discussed how you can't compare it to Spikeshot Elder, I'd suggest you go back and re-read that part thoroughly
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I would love a Hill Giant that duresses all awesome artifacts out of their hand...
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!