In the same vein, cant you bluff/threaten having Briarhorn?
I understand that it only gets you so far, but being able to influence your opponent's plays and potentially push extra damage through/hold off damage just by way of knowledge that a card could be in your deck (because it's actually in the cube) is at least worth mentioning.
Not saying that that sort of 'value' should put Briarhorn in the running, just bringing attention to it.
Here's the thing: Green decks are typically 'cast stuff on your own turn' type of decks. Ramp spells, creatures, equipment, etc. are all things that green decks need to be doing to advance their game plan (unlike blue decks for example, which are often fine not spending much mana on their own turn). If you are 'bluffing' Briarhorn, you are only setting back your own game plan for VERY little gain. Consequently, if you DON'T do anything at all with your four available mana in a green deck it is a blazing siren that you have a trick because the value gained by bluffing is SO low that it is rarely (if ever) worth the attempt. Aggro decks are still going to attack you, control/ramp decks are still going to develop hand/board, tempo decks are still going to attack (with tricks likely as well), and so forth...so not playing your other 4-drops (or other developments) often means not good things for you.
Also, what if you have it in hand and they read it and just develop their board instead of attacking for a turn? You're going to be even further behind if you don't do something with your mana, which can often mean casting your 3/3 flash just to get some board presence (unless you have something else to do on their turn). If you just untap, are you going to leave the mana up again (and wasting mana)? Or are you going to go back to casting your drops and developing your board (which just means not having the ability to cast it the following turn anyway, which will result in it sitting your hand and losing some value).
See what I'm saying?
- Masked Admirers was in my Cube a long time, but recently cut for just being too slow and grindy. It just didn't do enough most games.
- I have a Phantom Centaur on my Cube Bench from the early days; perhaps I should try it again with all the equipment around now. He used to only combo with cards like Elephant Guide
Man this makes me want to design more green cards that can be used as both a trick and an permanent. Maybe some sort of land mana sink. It'd be lovely for green to have more stuff to do in it's weird turns especially with all that dumb mana.
Do people ever play admirers or are they kinda a bad vengevine?
The same thing happened to admirers in cube as happened in standard back in the day. They started off a very popular choice because they're such a value creature, but got cut rather quickly for being just a bit too slow.
Wickerbough Elder almost always makes the main deck, I'd probably keep him over Master of the Wild Hunt. As for the 4-drops I also like these guys (I'd add two of them at 450... but I only run 4 4-drops at 360):
Elder is my only staple tbh. He is so solid and splashable. Always a MD-worthy card. Blastorderm is strong but never lasts long enough. I feel the minute you can really take advantage of him, he dies due to fading. Colossus I go back and forth because it's borderline win-more (unpowered mind you). If I can swing with him and pump once or twice, I am usually so far ahead. In a stalled board, he does nothing. If he has an equipment, he's insane....but so are so many other creatures. Ultimately, he suffered the "I don't miss him" effect, which goes a long way. It's my cube after all.
Centaur I am trying again because he's undeniably valuable. Give him a pump or equip and you can ride him out. He can also block for ages before he kicks the can. I've used Centaur on defense to hold off pretty respectable foes. He'll take down most of their side turn-over-turn-over-turn. The defense with him isn't praised enough (similar to abusing Kitchen Finks on D).
Master is the slow inevitable win if you have him. Literally eats removal because he's going to grind out so much advantage for you.
IMO the only staples at 4cc are: W. Elder and MotWH. The others are all flex.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I'm also playing Oracle of Mul Daya right now. She's probably expendable, but she guarantees gas draws, ramps pretty well and generates a lot of card advantage for 3G.
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Phantom Centaur is a maybe, but the other card don't even come close to the other cards I run.
Thats cool... I don't consider them 360 staples either.
I said I would ADD two of those to the 4 IF I was to go up to 450. I don't think anyone will argue against Thrun, Vengevine, Wickerbough being 360 staples... Master sometimes I'd rather have a bigger body and I may move him for Phantom Centaur.
Master puts a ton of pressure on your opponent and is repeatable removal... In green. I'd recommend it to anyone who hasn't tried it. I'd recommend retesting it, too.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
The problem Master had in our cube was that it kept losing its place during deck construction to planes walkers. You have two four cc Garuk and then you have Elspeth, Koth, Ajani and Jace in the other colours. And this is only if you look at the 4cc walkers.
Master fills a similar rule as walkers, but being a creature he is a lot more vulnerable. He was borderling for us at 450.
This competition with walkers is not just a problem for Master. We have noticed that over the years with the rising number of planes walkers that four and five drops are less critical then before. Juzam has lost its shine, dumb green beaters have trouble getting main decked. Even six cost finishers are on the losing side of this battle. Why play with Keiga if you can have Tamiyo in your deck?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I just beat so much face today with Vengevine, omg what a beast!
My opponent kept killing it trying to save his planeswalker but Vengevine just keeps coming back for more. Having a Survivial and a Squee helped too heh.
Why would anyone still run Blastoderm, and not even talk about Deadbridge Goliath. It is just a significantly better card IMHO. Am I missing something?
Why would anyone still run Blastoderm, and not even talk about Deadbridge Goliath. It is just a significantly better card IMHO. Am I missing something?
It doesn't have shroud? It's always worth 3 creatures/chunks of 5 life? It's way more important historically (a key feature in one of the most iconic/best standard decks, Fires)?
Those are reasons I don't play Goliath over Blastoderm.
We've only gotten one play in with Deadbridge Goliath, but it traded 2-for-1, then turned a bird into a Dragon, which was more relevant than Blastoderm has been in a year (it has since been cut).
Blasty suffers from the fact that killing shroud creatures is a easier than it ever was (thanks to the abundance of sweepers and sac effects) and throwing chump blockers out is easier than it ever has been (thanks to quality token producers and manlands). The idea that I would want to fight control with creatures that kill themselves (in green) is a thing of the past in our cube.
I also like the Goliath more than Blastoderm now. They both have their pros and cons, but having my threat not kill itself off is a big upside, as is the additional value it grants from the 'yard.
I'm a huge fan of Masked Admirers, but they're just so clunky. I think Vengevine does everything but draw cards better than this guy.
My cube list on CubeTutor.
Both are very much under construction. Please stop by and talk about it!
Here's the thing: Green decks are typically 'cast stuff on your own turn' type of decks. Ramp spells, creatures, equipment, etc. are all things that green decks need to be doing to advance their game plan (unlike blue decks for example, which are often fine not spending much mana on their own turn). If you are 'bluffing' Briarhorn, you are only setting back your own game plan for VERY little gain. Consequently, if you DON'T do anything at all with your four available mana in a green deck it is a blazing siren that you have a trick because the value gained by bluffing is SO low that it is rarely (if ever) worth the attempt. Aggro decks are still going to attack you, control/ramp decks are still going to develop hand/board, tempo decks are still going to attack (with tricks likely as well), and so forth...so not playing your other 4-drops (or other developments) often means not good things for you.
Also, what if you have it in hand and they read it and just develop their board instead of attacking for a turn? You're going to be even further behind if you don't do something with your mana, which can often mean casting your 3/3 flash just to get some board presence (unless you have something else to do on their turn). If you just untap, are you going to leave the mana up again (and wasting mana)? Or are you going to go back to casting your drops and developing your board (which just means not having the ability to cast it the following turn anyway, which will result in it sitting your hand and losing some value).
See what I'm saying?
- Masked Admirers was in my Cube a long time, but recently cut for just being too slow and grindy. It just didn't do enough most games.
- I have a Phantom Centaur on my Cube Bench from the early days; perhaps I should try it again with all the equipment around now. He used to only combo with cards like Elephant Guide
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Cube talk, design community and much much more!
The same thing happened to admirers in cube as happened in standard back in the day. They started off a very popular choice because they're such a value creature, but got cut rather quickly for being just a bit too slow.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Elder is my only staple tbh. He is so solid and splashable. Always a MD-worthy card. Blastorderm is strong but never lasts long enough. I feel the minute you can really take advantage of him, he dies due to fading. Colossus I go back and forth because it's borderline win-more (unpowered mind you). If I can swing with him and pump once or twice, I am usually so far ahead. In a stalled board, he does nothing. If he has an equipment, he's insane....but so are so many other creatures. Ultimately, he suffered the "I don't miss him" effect, which goes a long way. It's my cube after all.
Centaur I am trying again because he's undeniably valuable. Give him a pump or equip and you can ride him out. He can also block for ages before he kicks the can. I've used Centaur on defense to hold off pretty respectable foes. He'll take down most of their side turn-over-turn-over-turn. The defense with him isn't praised enough (similar to abusing Kitchen Finks on D).
Master is the slow inevitable win if you have him. Literally eats removal because he's going to grind out so much advantage for you.
IMO the only staples at 4cc are: W. Elder and MotWH. The others are all flex.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I'm not sure about Wild Hunt as staple. I'll put Thrun above him. I'm curently running
My cube
My cube on Cube tutor
I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
These are the 4 really good ones, IMO.
I'm also playing Oracle of Mul Daya right now. She's probably expendable, but she guarantees gas draws, ramps pretty well and generates a lot of card advantage for 3G.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Oh I was referring to the 4 he had up. Not in the overall universe
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
If you look at my post I was replying to quitequieter's post which mentions the big 4 that I'd consider to be 360 staples. I'd value Wickerbough Elder over Master of the Wild Hunt. If I was at 450 I'd find room to add 2 of the 3 (Blastoderm,Phantom Centaur, Chameleon Colossus)
I would cut Blastoderm, Phantom Centaur, Chameleon Colossus for Thrun, the Last Troll and Vengevine in a heartbeat. I don't consider those to be 360 staple at all.
Phantom Centaur is a maybe, but the other card don't even come close to the other cards I run.
My cube
My cube on Cube tutor
I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
Thats cool... I don't consider them 360 staples either.
I said I would ADD two of those to the 4 IF I was to go up to 450. I don't think anyone will argue against Thrun, Vengevine, Wickerbough being 360 staples... Master sometimes I'd rather have a bigger body and I may move him for Phantom Centaur.
Master fills a similar rule as walkers, but being a creature he is a lot more vulnerable. He was borderling for us at 450.
This competition with walkers is not just a problem for Master. We have noticed that over the years with the rising number of planes walkers that four and five drops are less critical then before. Juzam has lost its shine, dumb green beaters have trouble getting main decked. Even six cost finishers are on the losing side of this battle. Why play with Keiga if you can have Tamiyo in your deck?
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
My opponent kept killing it trying to save his planeswalker but Vengevine just keeps coming back for more. Having a Survivial and a Squee helped too heh.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
It doesn't have shroud? It's always worth 3 creatures/chunks of 5 life? It's way more important historically (a key feature in one of the most iconic/best standard decks, Fires)?
Those are reasons I don't play Goliath over Blastoderm.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Blasty suffers from the fact that killing shroud creatures is a easier than it ever was (thanks to the abundance of sweepers and sac effects) and throwing chump blockers out is easier than it ever has been (thanks to quality token producers and manlands). The idea that I would want to fight control with creatures that kill themselves (in green) is a thing of the past in our cube.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
The Great Cube Map!
My Powered Cube
Draft it here!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!